RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

soulcake · Apr 21, 2020

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

bird yells · Jan 25, 2021

JaceAoT said:
Hi everyone,

I've not read all replies in the thread, but I've read a bit of it, and I noticed some rumbling about the Ancestors leaving. This has come up in the past a few times as well.
So the way I understand it, is that in canon, the Ancestors left about 400 years After Pillars, which is in quest in about 13 turns.
And that's certainly something.

However, I think we should not be thinking about that at all. It's incredibly meta. It might be the most meta thing I've ever seen in a quest. It seems very very out of character to let such a thing influence us. We represent (in our voting) Runelord Snorri the Giftgiver. As far as I've read (and I've been reading this quest for a while now) there has been 0 mention of the Ancestors leaving in quest, with one very notable exception, but we interacted with that set of events and it was great.

So I won't mention anything or anyone specific, but I've seen people advocating to impress the Ancestors or help the Ancestors before it's 'too late'. This is silly and meta, but in addition, there is an observation I'd like to share. Imagine Snorri noticed the Ancestors had left, permanently. Would that change the way he treats the cults or the holds? I'd certainly imagine it wouldn't.

Thanks for reading, leave a reply if you have notable thoughts about this, please like the comment if you agree, it's hard to tell in-thread because not nearly everyone ever posts in-thread (myself included). I hope you all have a lovely day.

Metagaming is not really a problem, imo. There's been plenty of it previously in the thread and it's all been basically harmless, like eg. going hard on rune metal research early on. Ppl voted for it because they knew something Snorri did not and could not know: chasing that particular rainbow would eventually lead to a pot full of adamant. Thats metagaming as h*ck and, also, a perfectly legitimate reason for voting to pursue that particular project. In the context of the story, Snorri discovered adamant because he glimpsed something inexplicable and beautiful for just a moment, on that day he first breached the gromril cave, and he's the kind of guy who can spend decades of his life in pursuit of grasping the beautiful and comprehending the inexplicable. That's a cool story beat which informs several aspects of Snorri's character (sensibilities of both an artist and a naturalist, trusts his instincts, etc) and, imo, remains just as cool even if you consider that it was brought about primarily because a bunch of posters wanted a kickass uber allotrope for Snorri to make bigger axes with. The charge of metagaming is true but it doesn't detract from or cheapen the story being told in any way.

Similarly, it is an unassailable fact that Snorri wants very badly to earn the recognition of the ancestor gods. Making an attempt at great deeds and new discoveries in the hopes he might impress them in some small way is perfectly in character for him. You're right he wouldn't have any particular reason to believe he's on the clock, of course, but does it really matter if Snorri's and the irl peanut gallery's motivations align perfectly? Let people vote for ancestor flexing in the relatively short period of time left if they like; if they win, then Snorri might earn a final kind word as a bittersweet farewell from his living gods before they leave for parts unknown. Or a reminder he might finally have grown strong enough to shoulder the terrifying responsibility of living on in a world where the ancestors are no longer around to catch his people if they fall, perhaps. He wouldn't have known he needed to chase the ancestors quickly or else lose his final shot, unlike the posters in here who definitely do know that's the case, but that doesn't really matter. There's potential for cool story beats here either way and they're not really diminished by the fact some voters might go for them with slightly different motives, imo.

Or maybe nothing Snorri comes up with in the next 100 years will warrant an ancestor response, they'll all roll their eyes at the dumbass beardling still fishing for affirmation even after getting a full set of ancestor tokens and they just depart one day. That'd be cool too, in its own way. In fact we're all winners here, if you think about it, because there's cool story beats no matter where we look.

Copperscale · Jan 25, 2021

Also, there are very few people qualified to give Snorri headpats.
And Ancestor god headpats are the best headpats

MrHobbit · Jan 25, 2021

bird yells said:
There's been plenty of it previously in the thread and it's all been basically harmless, like eg. going hard on rune metal research early on. Ppl voted for it because they knew something Snorri did not and could not know: chasing that particular rainbow would eventually lead to a pot full of adamant. Thats metagaming as h*ck and, also, a perfectly legitimate reason for voting to pursue that particular project. In the context of the story, Snorri discovered adamant because he glimpsed something inexplicable and beautiful for just a moment, on that day he first breached the gromril cave, and he's the kind of guy who can spend decades of his life in pursuit of grasping the beautiful and comprehending the inexplicable.

I just checked the turns, and we got the gromril mine before we started poking The Rune Metal research tree. Snorri seemed certain that the vision wasn't just a hallucination. We didn't poke that research tree until Turn 3. Like Snorri is certain that Glimril exists, but he doesn't know about it beyond very shiny hallucination.

I do think that it could be argued that the interest in the Elgi books that Valma had was a bit metagamey.

ArchAIngel · Jan 25, 2021

MrHobbit said:
I just checked the turns, and we got the gromril mine before we started poking The Rune Metal research tree. Snorri seemed certain that the vision wasn't just a hallucination. We didn't poke that research tree until Turn 3. Like Snorri is certain that Glimril exists, but he doesn't know about it beyond very shiny hallucination.

I do think that it could be argued that the interest in the Elgi books that Valma had was a bit metagamey.

I mean, it's also been noted to use "Know Your Enemy" logic for counterspelling. Which could be fun to see given our current approach seems to be "No, you have no Winds now", and something with finer control could give out more spectacular explosions of enemy casters.

MrHobbit · Jan 25, 2021

ArchAIngel said:
I mean, it's also been noted to use "Know Your Enemy" logic for counterspelling. Which could be fun to see given our current approach seems to be "No, you have no Winds now", and something with finer control could give out more spectacular explosions of enemy casters.

That's true, but I don't think Snorri was really thinking of killing Elgi when he traded for the books. In character, he would have been taking a gamble on if Valma's discovery was really Galbaraz. No risk, no reward.

I suspect we are a long way's off from being able to cause miscasts to explode. We'd probably have to invent Windvision glasses or something like that. Hmm, alchemy might be useful in that regard, or perhaps the Elgi.

UlseDovThur · Jan 25, 2021

MrHobbit said:
That's true, but I don't think Snorri was really thinking of killing Elgi when he traded for the books. In character, he would have been taking a gamble on if Valma's discovery was really Galbaraz. No risk, no reward.

I suspect we are a long way's off from being able to cause miscasts to explode. We'd probably have to invent Windvision glasses or something like that. Hmm, alchemy might be useful in that regard, or perhaps the Elgi.

Less killing elgi and more killing spellcaster in general. Like Tzeenchean Daemons.

bird yells · Jan 25, 2021

MrHobbit said:
I just checked the turns, and we got the gromril mine before we started poking The Rune Metal research tree. Snorri seemed certain that the vision wasn't just a hallucination. We didn't poke that research tree until Turn 3. Like Snorri is certain that Glimril exists, but he doesn't know about it beyond very shiny hallucination.

I do think that it could be argued that the interest in the Elgi books that Valma had was a bit metagamey.

Yeah that's what I mean. Snorri did not have any rational reason to believe he could invent Gromril 2, unlike eg. Bara who had already seen an example of Gromril 2 and knew she could do it too if only she could figure out how. Snorri decided to leap for it anyway because he saw something he couldn't explain, something that could be dismissed as a consequence of the concussion he'd probably just got protecting Fjolla and Dolgi from that rockslide, but he decided to trust his instincts and chase it. As distinct from the voting public over here in the real world, who knew 100 % what that glimpse had been about and what would come out of researching it.

And the books are another example of something that is at once metagaming and perfectly fine. Snorri's spent his whole life banging his head against an invisible wall, trying to understand an intangible, immeasurable and seemingly illogical force that underpins everything he does. There's even a special bit of jargon in his business for the brain freeze you get when you contemplate the stupid inexplicable thing too closely. Once it turned out there was a people across the sea who could actually see and interact with the weird spooky shit and who write scholarly treatises about it, of course he'd be interested in learning from them. The fact that some posters in here might have evaluated the books with the help of knowledge outside of Snorri's frame of reference isn't a problem.

Jreengus · Jan 25, 2021

MrHobbit said:
I suspect we are a long way's off from being able to cause miscasts to explode. We'd probably have to invent Windvision glasses or something like that. Hmm, alchemy might be useful in that regard, or perhaps the Elgi.

I thought we could already do that:

soulcake said:
You duck under the axe swing of a Gor, pulp its head with Zharrgal then dispel the magic just as it leaves the Shaman's grip. The explosion of rot that quite literally melts an entire group of beastfolk, Shaman included, is enough to rouse the lad's notice it seems.

soulcake said:
He blinks when the Runelord turns to him and regards him, his literal stony visage judging him before casually tapping his amulet. Rudil blinks when he sees a burst of blood in the distance, the Bray Shaman responsible suffering the deadly feedback of its next spell being disrupted mid formation.

Copperscale · Jan 25, 2021

soulcake said:
When it's put like that you can understand why she seemed so squeamish, but also draw a bit of pride at just how much your very presence sends magic falling dead to the ground.

In the next episode of Snorri and the Elgi, we will attempt to quantify exactly how disruptive Snorri is. Effective range, Passive Range, Impossible to cast range. All of this and more will be measured

MrHobbit · Jan 25, 2021

Jreengus said:
I thought we could already do that:

Oh, hmm. That's cool. Seems like I forgot how volatile the Winds are.

But Windvision glasses would still be cool.

JowKeen · Jan 25, 2021

We have had enough poking around Durin's Consternation, the Brana Windspeakers, and various prods from visions and Elders for me to consider investigating Magic to not be a result of metagaming.

The Greed Troll exploded and granted us powerful regents, including regents which play a key role in purifying Gromril?
Repeated exposure to reagents that seem to thrum with winds the Dawi cannot see, but Runesmiths know by tradition to be useful?
A sturdy and valiant group of allies that consistently wrestle the winds to usefulness?

I think if it weren't for the Brana perhaps we wouldn't have enough pieces to poke at it. But the Brana are here, and so we have confirmation that Magic can become contained/restrained within physical form.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What to do about Elgi hmm? I think that this Elgi in particular might find some of the materials we have found interesting, especially the plant varieties.
As for the vote:

[X] [Talk]: Knowledge about the Everqueen
[X] [Talk]: Knowledge about House Dawnseeker
[X] [Talk]: Knowledge about Elf History

This seems to me to be a fairly customary exchange of information. Knowledge of their "Karaz Ankor", knowledge of the Clan whom is their patron, knowledge of a particularly noteworthy Ancestor who may be their version of Ancestor God.

Dawi do not divide their lands into Provinces since the vast majority live inside of the Holds which do defend such approximate regions. Learning of the history of provinces might be as learning the history of Karaks, but the Elgi do not live in Karaks and so the other three make more intuitive sense to ask after.

The Runes are gifts given by the Ancestor Gods themselves, so it would make some amount of sense for the Elgi to trust Magic if their Ancestor God gifted the knowledge to wield it to them. Not how the Dawi have done it, no, but at least for Ghyran the Elgi had Ancestor Knowledge in wielding it

MrHobbit · Jan 25, 2021

soulcake said:
The next decade, hopefully, would be a tad more boring on your end. Right now you only had a paltry six months to prepare for the arrival of the King of Kraka Dorden, Svarti Sindrisson and a few other notable dwarfs to Kraka Drakk. Mostly nobles of little import and a few choice Guildmasters, but more importantly for you, one Valma Stoneshaper, one of the Hold's two Runelords, gronti specialist, and one of the youngest Runelords in the north, younger than Lorna even.

I guess Lorna was born a few months earlier than Valma? Both of them were born in 328 B.P.

soulcake · Jan 25, 2021

MrHobbit said:
I guess Lorna was born a few months earlier than Valma? Both of them were born in 328 B.P.

yeh, this is the case.

Green Baron · Jan 25, 2021

[X] [Talk]: Knowledge about the Everqueen
[X] [Talk]: Knowledge about Elf History
[X] Plan Don't Ignore the Grave
Two things I wonder.
For the first who or what is House Dawnseeker?
And for the second, it was someone that made a plan, or a timatable, for what we should use or actions for the coming turns. We're is it, I have trouble with finding it.

carterhall · Jan 25, 2021

[X] Plan Don't Ignore the Grave

[X] [Talk]: Knowledge about the Everqueen
[X] [Talk]: Knowledge about House Dawnseeker
[X] [Talk]: Knowledge about Elf History

Jreengus · Jan 25, 2021

Green Baron said:
[X] [Talk]: Knowledge about the Everqueen
[X] [Talk]: Knowledge about Elf History
Two things I wonder.
For the first who or what is House Dawnseeker?
And for the second, it was someone that made a plan, or a timatable, for what we should use or actions for the coming turns. We're is it, I have trouble with finding it.

Dawnseeker is the noble house with the elven embassy in Kraka Ravensvake. The plan for the next few turns was:

37: 4 chain 1 locked
38: 4 Valaya's Basket 1 locked
39: 4 Valayan Commission 1 locked
40: 4 Valayan Commission 1 locked
41: 5 Gazulite Commission
42: 3 Gazulite Commission 2 Free

Alratan · Jan 25, 2021

JowKeen said:
What to do about Elgi hmm? I think that this Elgi in particular might find some of the materials we have found interesting, especially the plant varieties.

Opening up trade in the various odd things that Snorri has found might be interesting for Clan Winterhearth. Particularly as it might potentially open up effectively limitless supplies of various low tier reagents from Ulthuan, or later on, from the rest of the world.

Jreengus said:
Dawnseeker is the noble house with the elven embassy in Kraka Ravensvake. The plan for the next few turns was:

37: 4 chain 1 locked
38: 4 Valaya's Basket 1 locked
39: 4 Valayan Commission 1 locked
40: 4 Valayan Commission 1 locked
41: 5 Gazulite Commission
42: 3 Gazulite Commission 2 Free

I really think we should consider dropping Valaya's basket, moving Her Cult's commission forwards a turn, and doing the Wardstone research in turn 40 ahead of the Cult of Gazul's commission. That was there won't be four straight turns of simple commissions, and we'll have the Wardstone runes available for the Gazulite commission, which will probably be more valuable for that than Valaya's basket's runes will be for Her Cult's commission.

MrHobbit · Jan 25, 2021

Jreengus said:
37: 4 chain 1 locked
38: 4 Valaya's Basket 1 locked
39: 4 Valayan Commission 1 locked
40: 4 Valayan Commission 1 locked
41: 5 Gazulite Commission
42: 3 Gazulite Commission 2 Free

Hm, we don't necessarily get any benefits from putting 5 actions on the Gazul commission on the same turn. We only get additional actions on 3 actions or 2 and 4. We could spread it out to fit in mat research and break up the monotony? Then again we could put the 2 free actions on Turn 42 on, say, the Firebird's feather. Do the Firebird feather turn 41 and dump 5 actions into the Gazul Commission turn 42.

41: 4 Gazulite Commission 1 Firebird Feather
42: 4 Gazulite Commission 1 Fireball Feather

Edit: Wrong commission on turn 42

Jreengus · Jan 25, 2021

Alratan said:
Opening up trade in the various odd things that Snorri has found might be interesting for Clan Winterhearth. Particularly as it might potentially open up effectively limitless supplies of various low tier reagents from Ulthuan, or later on, from the rest of the world.

I really think we should consider dropping Valaya's basket, moving Her Cult's commission forwards a turn, and doing the Wardstone research in turn 40 ahead of the Cult of Gazul's commission. That was there won't be four straight turns of simple commissions, and we'll have the Wardstone runes available for the Gazulite commission, which will probably be more valuable for that than Valaya's basket's runes will be for Her Cult's commission.

I'm not really willing to commit to anything for next turn until we see exactly what happens with chain this turn but that's the plan as it is mostly agreed on by the thread.

MrHobbit said:
Hm, we don't necessarily get any benefits from putting 5 actions on the Gazul commission on the same turn. We only get additional actions on 3 actions or 2 and 4. We could spread it out to fit in mat research and break up the monotony? Then again we could put the 2 free actions on Turn 42 on, say, the Firebird's feather. Do the Firebird feather turn 41 and dump 5 actions into the Gazul Commission turn 42.

41: 4 Gazulite Commission 1 Firebird Feather
42: 4 Gazulite Commission 1 Fireball Feather

Edit: Wrong commission on turn 42

We get additional actions on 2, 3 and 5 so doing it that way lets us finish at 13/12. The FAQ has the breakdown:

soulcake said:
Actual Action Input Effective Action Input
1 1
2 3 =2 +1[Proc Bonus]
3 5 = 3 +2[Proc Bonus]
4 6 =1 +(3 +2[Proc Bonus])
5 8 = (3 +2[Proc Bonus]) +(2 +1[Proc Bonus])

MrHobbit · Jan 25, 2021

Jreengus said:
We get additional actions on 2, 3 and 5 so doing it that way lets us finish at 13/12. The FAQ has the breakdown:

I did not remember that being on the FAQ.

Hmm, I still there there is merit in doing the Firebird Feathers Turn 41. It'll be an achievement that will make the people who didn't want to take the Gazul commission happier, and it will break up what Snorri focuses on.

baud · Jan 25, 2021

[X] [Talk]: Knowledge about the Everqueen
[X] Plan Don't Ignore the Grave

UlseDovThur · Jan 25, 2021

Instead of Valaya's Runes we could knockout learning Eltharin with three actions which would mesh well with getting all of the alchemy books this turn and use the spare action on something else.

Would give him something to do between crafting sessions for the next few turns of naught but armor making, analyzing the alchemy stuff and going back over the books on the winds below has.

MrHobbit · Jan 25, 2021

UlseDovThur said:
Instead of Valaya's Runes we could knockout learning Eltharin with three actions which would mesh well with getting all of the alchemy books this turn and use the spare action on something else.

Would give him something to do between crafting sessions for the next few turns of naught but armor making, analyzing the alchemy stuff and going back over the books on the winds below has.

I'd honestly like to study the work of the Ancestors right now. I'm just in that sort of mood. And given that there is only one voter who hasn't voted for gromril chain, I'm guessing the thread is as well.

Maybe split up the commissions? Might be a bit weird in character.

38: Valayan Commission
39: Understand Valaya's Basket
40: Valayan Commission

Don't get me wrong, I want to learn Eltharin, but the Ancestor's craft is just more, appealing I guess?

DXCS · Jan 25, 2021

[X] Plan Don't Ignore the Grave

UlseDovThur · Jan 25, 2021

MrHobbit said:
I'd honestly like to study the work of the Ancestors right now. I'm just in that sort of mood. And given that there is only one voter who hasn't voted for gromril chain, I'm guessing the thread is as well.

Maybe split up the commissions? Might be a bit weird in character.

38: Valayan Commission
39: Understand Valaya's Basket
40: Valayan Commission

Don't get me wrong, I want to learn Eltharin, but the Ancestor's craft is just more, appealing I guess?

Nah, if we do Valayas runes it should be before we start the commission as they may give us some new defensive Rune or improve the ones we have.

Actual Action Input	Effective Action Input
1	1
2	3 =2 +1[Proc Bonus]
3	5 = 3 +2[Proc Bonus]
4	6 =1 +(3 +2[Proc Bonus])
5	8 = (3 +2[Proc Bonus]) +(2 +1[Proc Bonus])

RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

Sorcerer Supreme.