RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Dark as Silver]

So, we have no way to interact with this consideration when making the exchange. Snorri isn't one to trade the rune of Prosthesis on the condition of joining. Perhaps we might get the option to recruit Valma into the Arm Them wagon later and that is also a problem.

And Soulcake has mentioned as well that if someone else does what you quote, we'd get called in just the same.
We must be able to trust someone won't do that, ever.

Another consideration here is that since we cannot set the condition, and Snorri is not one likely to set the condition without our input, and it isn't an inevitable problem we have no current means to avert (as that is bad design), that must mean it is a problem we can interact with through some means currently available to us. The only things we can do at the moment that interact with that last point involve decisions over the trade of the Rune of Prosthesis and actions after that: don't give it out, give it out, and give it out to people who won't ever pull a fast one with authority. And decisions about collaboration on Arm Them which requires that the collaborator have the Rune of Prosthesis in the first place.

E: To be as clear as I can, when I say interact I meant either avert or worsen.

Another bit that's important to this.

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Okay, can you explain why prosthesis is a special rune? I think it would be literally the exact same scenario if we taught someone Rune of Speech in exchange for them taking up some of the burden of making Brana chokers. Or if we tried to make a retinue of only Runesmiths by giving MUnyielding as the joining offer.
And despite that, nobody would argue that we should never give away any rune.

If someone we traded the rune to its not a bad end in the same way. Its shameful that we misjudged the other dwarves character so dramatically but I don't think its bad end worthy.
And besides, realistically whats actually the risk that a dwarf would deliberately or unintentionally spark a religious schism that we could have blundered into because of a lack of understanding the society. I don't think its actually a high bar of trust to clear.

The other thing to think about, is that as far as I know soulcake has never given us a trap option.
The bad end proposal was questors speculating on ways it might be done, and when it came up soulcake flagged it as a bad idea and explained why before we could even suggest a write in. Just letting Snorri do it was all that was needed to avoid that risk, because unless the questors specify otherwise, Snorri is going to act in character and not do stupid things...
Now we can blunder into it by moving to fast against dwarven cultural inertia, but I trust that thats going to be flagged and foreshadowed.

 

[Jreengus]

As the old saying goes: "Better Safe Than Sorry"

Do you really want to risk a schism in the Runesmith Guild?

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Yes? We can't hide in our workshop terrified that any action we take could potentially cause a catastrophe, we've identified the problem and I've suggested a course of action that should reduce to risk to zero I don't see how this can go wrong. It's not like Valma will be half a continent away and the first we will learn of any problems will be as she leads a group of runesmiths to try and kill Thungni and liberate the radicals from the tyranny of the rule of pride. The worst case is we sit her down and explain the problems her actions could cause though I personally don't even see that as a big risk. The odds of this one rune trade leading to a schism are so small as to be not even worth considering.

 

[MrHobbit]

Didn't Valma start the trade for knowledge of Deep Magic? I don't think she would be all that interested in the Rune of Forged Limb, and she would without a doubt be aware of the issues.. She might already know how to make non-humanoid gronti, she is further along the Path than Snorri is.

I'm still not sure what exactly Snorri has that she wants. Barak Azamar does its stuff because of the Greedy Troll Heart, so I can't be sure if normal Mountainsouled will do what she wants.

 

[Pempelune]

Okay, can you explain why prosthesis is a special rune? I think it would be literally the exact same scenario if we taught someone Rune of Speech in exchange for them taking up some of the burden of making Brana chokers. Or if we tried to make a retinue of only Runesmiths by giving MUnyielding as the joining offer.
And despite that, nobody would argue that we should never give away any rune.

If someone we traded the rune to its not a bad end in the same way. Its shameful that we misjudged the other dwarves character so dramatically but I don't think its bad end worthy.
And besides, realistically whats actually the risk that a dwarf would deliberately or unintentionally spark a religious schism that we could have blundered into because of a lack of understanding the society. I don't think its actually a high bar of trust to clear.

The other thing to think about, is that as far as I know soulcake has never given us a trap option.
The bad end proposal was questors speculating on ways it might be done, and when it came up soulcake flagged it as a bad idea and explained why before we could even suggest a write in. Just letting Snorri do it was all that was needed to avoid that risk, because unless the questors specify otherwise, Snorri is going to act in character and not do stupid things...
Now we can blunder into it by moving to fast against dwarven cultural inertia, but I trust that thats going to be flagged and foreshadowed.

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Soulcake has been extremely clear about this in the past.
You should be aware of this, since you quoted him from the very same page.

Again, if the House of Runelords has any probable cause to believe you're teaching Runesmiths the Rune of Prosthesis on the condition that they be made to partake in your little gambit, you're getting called to explain yourself.
If for some reason a Dwarf you shared this Rune with expands the operation and does the above, you're getting called to explain yourself.

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AGAIN. What a Runesmith does on his own time is not the Guild's business. If you keep this to yourself and just your apprentices there will only ever be grumbling since they will believe this is just in line with how you act normally. If other Runesmiths start doing it, and they start to collectivise, even without your input, that risks the Guild literally splitting itself in a schism because the Conservatives will no longer abide this very obvious break of tradition and the Rule of Pride, nor would the Radicals support a departure on such a scale.

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It doesn't matter to them. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Arm Them isn't an immediate trap option that results in your censure and the guild's schism, its a potential end point based on a line of future and prior decisions, arguably one of the worst ones depending on how bad the schism gets.

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Arm them is the only thing thats risking getting collectivised right now though by all technicalities the torques could as well, but seeing as only your apprentices know the Rune and potentially Lorna it isn't as an immediate a concern. Still a concern. If you survive Arm Them Literally, you'll at least know what to do or maybe what not to do when the time comes for that little nugget issue.

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[Dark as Silver]

Soulcake has been extremely clear about this in the past.
You should be aware of this, since you quoted him from the very same page.

Click to shrink...

Could you clarify what your point is because I think we might be talking past each other?

He's pretty clear that the problem is collectivising rune smiths and Prosthesis is one of many different ways we could accidentally trigger that.
Rune of speech is explicitly called out as a different way that it could happen, and also that we can get to the end of the tree without triggering a schism.

 

[BungieONI]

I think you are overstating the threat. If someone we trade the rune to starts doing that stuff with it we will be called up but at that point we just need to be able to defend ourselves and the trade. Trading an animation related rune to a gronti expert is a perfectly reasonable and defendable action. I think the real thing we have to be careful about is what the dwarves we trade it to take from our actions as this is a key part of how elders pass on their wisdom. If we trade the rune to Valma, as a gronti expert that only really says we think she can be trusted with a rune that has interesting impacts on her specialty. And if she does start taking the wrong idea from it and doing something problematic we can have a word with her about it.

I doubt any issues will crop up though unless we do something like trade the rune to one runelord in each hold in that north, that would imply to them we expect each runelord we traded it to to do Arm Them for their own hold, or if we trade it to a bunch of radical runesmiths that work together and or live in nearby karaks, that would imply we want them to work together on the rune.

This is why I think we should stick to trading it to gronti specialist runelords from different areas and/or diehard conservatives, the first makes it clear we are simply giving it to them due to it's applicability to their specialty and avoids the issues of collaboration; the second can be trusted not to do anything stupid with it. If either causes problems with it we can step in to stop them and our hands will be clean.

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Our hands will not be clean in the court of optics and this is a problem of optics. Dwarves work on the principle of "you should have known better not to do it in the first place" i.e preventing problems before they start, especially at Snorri's age.

When I say our hands will not be clean in the court of optics what I mean is that I see being called up as a major problem already, because it takes a major problem from the perception of the house to cause it to happen. So, even if we can with direct proof defend ourselves perfectly we will now have political enemies in the most direct sense beyond what we have now and I don't trust those enemies not to cause problems for us after that, and finally whoever we helped who did something to cause us to be called is in deep trouble as a Runelord.

Will being called up lead directly to schism as the next step right after it? No, but it is entirely avoidable and enough of a pain in the ass that I figure we should just avoid it since having to deal with that is a waste of our time and effort. And its certainly a step in that direction.

Yes? We can't hide in our workshop terrified that any action we take could potentially cause a catastrophe, we've identified the problem and I've suggested a course of action that should reduce to risk to zero I don't see how this can go wrong. It's not like Valma will be half a continent away and the first we will learn of any problems will be as she leads a group of runesmiths to try and kill Thungni and liberate the radicals from the tyranny of the rule of pride. The worst case is we sit her down and explain the problems her actions could cause though I personally don't even see that as a big risk. The odds of this one rune trade leading to shism are so small as to be not even worth considering.

Click to shrink...

So the problem is that no single action leads to schism as soul outlined. He confirmed that it is possible, but that it is a long road of decisions. No single rune trade will immediately lead to schism. But every rune trade we do increases how many sources there are of it and if people collectivize because they want to help more people, we still have the problem. It is risk management, and it is really simple to set the risk to guaranteed zero while still having it progress. So in my mind we just need to do that and spreading it around buys me nothing that I value more than the risk.

I am so insistent on this because I see the solution as a very simple action of not doing anything, which locks out an entire potential heap of problems. The ratio there between action and avoided problems is fantastic so I'm going to advocate for it.

Okay, can you explain why prosthesis is a special rune? I think it would be literally the exact same scenario if we taught someone Rune of Speech in exchange for them taking up some of the burden of making Brana chokers. Or if we tried to make a retinue of only Runesmiths by giving MUnyielding as the joining offer.
And despite that, nobody would argue that we should never give away any rune.

If someone we traded the rune to its not a bad end in the same way. Its shameful that we misjudged the other dwarves character so dramatically but I don't think its bad end worthy.
And besides, realistically whats actually the risk that a dwarf would deliberately or unintentionally spark a religious schism that we could have blundered into because of a lack of understanding the society. I don't think its actually a high bar of trust to clear.

The other thing to think about, is that as far as I know soulcake has never given us a trap option.
The bad end proposal was questors speculating on ways it might be done, and when it came up soulcake flagged it as a bad idea and explained why before we could even suggest a write in. Just letting Snorri do it was all that was needed to avoid that risk, because unless the questors specify otherwise, Snorri is going to act in character and not do stupid things...
Now we can blunder into it by moving to fast against dwarven cultural inertia, but I trust that thats going to be flagged and foreshadowed.

Click to shrink...

In and of itself the Rune of Prosthesis is not special. But it being special is also not the consideration of import here. What it is connected to in Arm Them is, specifically because we brought in the Cult of Valaya. If we hadn't done that this would be much less of a problem.

The other examples you mention would not have as wide of a problem but they could still be problems per se. I frankly doubt they will be for a very long time if ever since they aren't connected to the unusual situation of Arm Them.

And you're right, someone doing a bad and getting us called in or otherwise indicating we misjudged them is just a bad thing but its an easily avoidable bad thing so why do it? It doesn't really get me or us anything I'd value more than avoiding the problem.

And after it was discussed he specified what would happen. It isn't a trap option, but it is an option we can act in and make mistakes, unlike a lot of other things.

And that discussion Soul had where he outlined the problem was him flagging what would be moving too fast for dwarven cultural inertia. Handing it off to the Cult of Valaya like we have is the long term solution.

 

[Pempelune]

Could you clarify what your point is because I think we might be talking past each other?

He's pretty clear that the problem is collectivising rune smiths and Prosthesis is one of many different ways we could accidentally trigger that.
Rune of speech is explicitly called out as a different way that it could happen, and also that we can get to the end of the tree without triggering a schism.

Click to shrink...

If you keep this to yourself and just your apprentices there will only ever be grumbling since they will believe this is just in line with how you act normally. If other Runesmiths start doing it, and they start to collectivise, even without your input, that risks the Guild literally splitting itself in a schism because the Conservatives will no longer abide this very obvious break of tradition and the Rule of Pride, nor would the Radicals support a departure on such a scale.

Click to shrink...

That's as clear a warning as it gets. If we let knowledge of the Rune of Prosthesis get out and a Runesmith start collectivizing like we did, we're in political hot water. That's regardless of what we do - from the moment that rune is out there, it is out of our hands, and we have no control over what happens because we have no control over what those other Runesmiths do with the rune.
This is, quite plainly, too big a risk to take.

EDIT: And yes, the Rune of Speech could have a similar impact, but the Rune of Prosthesis is our problem because we much more openly skirted the line when we started making the prosthesis on a semi-industrial scale available the North over.
It's barely acceptable when only we do it, if other people start doing it, it's not acceptable at all.

 

[BungieONI]

So to be as clear as possible @Dark as Silver what I understand you saying is this:

It's fine to trade the rune of prosthesis to Valma because its not really that different to the rune of Speech or some other rune, and we're fine trading those. Basically, making the question of; if we're not trading the rune of prosthesis, why are we trading any rune to highlight what you think the problem with the argument I am making is.

What my point is, is that out of any surrounding context its no different to any other rune. If we include that other context those other problems look different because they do not have the logistical might of the cult of Valaya behind them, they are longer term issues and we have not performed a project that is built around collectivization like we have with Arm Them. The foundation for the problem is a lot weaker and easier to deal with, and doesn't carry the risk of schism somewhere in the distant future, it just carries arguments about the Rule of Pride. Equating them is I think incorrect.

Now since I've kind of specified my own reasoning on why I don't think trading these runes away is worth it, why do you think it is? What is your reason behind pushing for trading it?

 

[Dark as Silver]

And you're right, someone doing a bad and getting us called in or otherwise indicating we misjudged them is a bad thing but its an easily avoidable bad thing so why do it?

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I suppose at the end of the day it comes down to this. And as far as I'm concerned, refusing to trust anyone ever because they might betray us is not the mindset of a healthy well adjusted person.

I'm not advocating trading with every single runesmith who wanders in from parts unknown, but Valma is a Runelord, that means that she's been vetted by the Runelord who proposed her as well as gotten approval by the majority of the Runelord conclave. She's not some suspicious stranger with a bronze bull shaped amulet.

The cult of Valaya feels like a non-sequitor to me, I remember how the possiblity that this put them and the Runesmiths at odds was a concern earlier that might have taken Ancestor intervention to resolve, but I'm not sure how that is brought up again by trading it to Valma. What did I miss?

That's as clear a warning as it gets. If we let knowledge of the Rune of Prosthesis get out and a Runesmith start doing similar things to us, we're in political hot water. That's regardless of what we do - from the moment that rune is out there, it is out of our hands, and we have no control over what happens because we have no control over what those other Runesmiths do with the rune.
This is, quite plainly, too big a risk to take.

Click to shrink...

Apparently its not that clear as you seem to think he's only talking about this issue whereas I think he's talking about an underlying theme

AGAIN. What a Runesmith does on his own time is not the Guild's business. If you keep this to yourself and just your apprentices there will only ever be grumbling since they will believe this is just in line with how you act normally. If other Runesmiths start doing it, and they start to collectivise, even without your input, that risks the Guild literally splitting itself in a schism because the Conservatives will no longer abide this very obvious break of tradition and the Rule of Pride, nor would the Radicals support a departure on such a scale.

Click to shrink...

Arm them is the only thing thats risking getting collectivised right now though by all technicalities the torques could as well, but seeing as only your apprentices know the Rune and potentially Lorna it isn't as an immediate a concern. Still a concern. If you survive Arm Them Literally, you'll at least know what to do or maybe what not to do when the time comes for that little nugget issue.

Click to shrink...

Those are the things that are really catching my attention there.
Note that even Bungie acknowledged that this isn't specific to prosthesis

In and of itself the Rune of Prosthesis is not special.

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So I'm concered that you've gotten overly focused on who we let have access to it, whereas we should be worried about why we let people have access to it.

 

[EldritchObserver]

Yes? We can't hide in our workshop terrified that any action we take could potentially cause a catastrophe, we've identified the problem and I've suggested a course of action that should reduce to risk to zero I don't see how this can go wrong. It's not like Valma will be half a continent away and the first we will learn of any problems will be as she leads a group of runesmiths to try and kill Thungni and liberate the radicals from the tyranny of the rule of pride. The worst case is we sit her down and explain the problems her actions could cause though I personally don't even see that as a big risk. The odds of this one rune trade leading to a schism are so small as to be not even worth considering.

Click to shrink...

The problem isn't Valma, it's who she deals with. Or at least her apprentices. If we continue making trades, other Runesmiths, particularly the Journeymen, may begin to follow Snorri's example. Who's to say that Valma's apprentices won't try to emulate their Elders? And if they do, there's no guarantee that those that they trade with will have the foresight and awareness of Guild politics required to realize that following Snorri's example is not the best move.

 

[Pempelune]

The cult of Valaya feels like a non-sequitor to me, I remember how the possiblity that this put them and the Runesmiths at odds was a concern earlier that might have taken Ancestor intervention to resolve, but I'm not sure how that is brought up again by trading it to Valma. What did I miss?

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The Cult of Valaya is relevant because we used their help to make our most ambitious violation of the Rule of Pride yet. We made the prosthesis available to every dwarf in the North - that's the difference with the Rune of Speech, we did not violate the rule in such blatant fashion then.
As Soulcake said, that in itself is not enough to get us called to the House of Runelords - but if other people start doing it, then it looks like we're actively pushing other people to subvert the Rule of Pride, and that carry the risk of schism.

Basically, yes every rune could possibly get used in a way that push the Guild to schism, but only the Rune of Prosthesis, so far, could do so while implicating us.

 

[BungieONI]

I suppose at the end of the day it comes down to this. And as far as I'm concerned, refusing to trust anyone ever because they might betray us is not the mindset of a healthy well adjusted person.

I'm not advocating trading with every single runesmith who wanders in from parts unknown, but Valma is a Runelord, that means that she's been vetted by the Runelord who proposed her as well as gotten approval by the majority of the Runelord conclave. She's not some suspicious stranger with a bronze bull shaped amulet.

The cult of Valaya feels like a non-sequitor to me, I remember how the possiblity that this put them and the Runesmiths at odds was a concern earlier that might have taken Ancestor intervention to resolve, but I'm not sure how that is brought up again by trading it to Valma. What did I miss?

Apparently its not that clear as you seem to think he's only talking about this issue whereas I think he's talking about an underlying theme


Those are the things that are really catching my attention there.
Note that even Bungie acknowledged that this isn't specific to prosthesis

So I'm concered that you've gotten overly focused on who we let have access to it, whereas we should be worried about why we let people have access to it.

Click to shrink...

So, I'm not sure why you're trying to insult me, but okay.

I'm not even using the mindset of everyone betraying us, I'm looking at this actually kind of divorced from people and looking at it in terms of an entire plotline. I don't want to start the plotline, so I'm going to advocate to not. And to be clear the plotline has more than schism in it, since it could be good as soul mentioned back then, but I don't think the good outweighs the bad in this case especially since we're already getting most of what I'd want anyway from the project.

What you missed, I outlined above in other posts. We picked Arm Them + Cult of Valaya support. The schsim possibility is almost entirely supported on that choice. A schism between the cult of Valaya and Thungni, and also throw in general Rule of Pride issues with the cult of Thungni.

I agree in a sort of fashion that why is more important than who, at least in the sense that what I'm worried about is more closely related to why than who.

 

[MrHobbit]

Again, why would Valma want the Rune of Forged Limb?

"You're channelling a lot of Deep Magic with that armour," she says straight out, "it's the only explanation I can think of. I don't know-how, and I'm only asking since you've traded with Lorna, but I'm willing to trade whatever you feel like giving in exchange for what I have."

You quirk a brow.

Brazen, very much so, but then again you did vote for her during Rhunkalbrogg.

"I won't ask for specifics, but how do I know you have anything I want?"

"Gronti, or more specifically the Master Rune of Waking," she says, "That Rune of Transcription, your Miner, and the whole deal with the limbs...I know you're going places with it. I won't pretend to know more than you, but I'm offering what I do have. And this," she says, turning around and pulling a tome out of a chest behind her.

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She's willing to give us what she knows about Grontis and Elgi magic in exchange for what we know about Deep Magic. About the only things I can think of that we can offer her that has Deep Magic would be the Master Rune of Unyielding, Understanding the Master Rune of Unyielding, Compressing the Mountainsouled + Combo, and then Understanding that Master Rune.

 

[Dark as Silver]

So to be as clear as possible @Dark as Silver what I understand you saying is this:

It's fine to trade the rune of prosthesis to Valma because its not really that different to the rune of Speech or some other rune, and we're fine trading those. Basically, making the question of; if we're not trading the rune of prosthesis, why are we trading any rune to highlight what you think the problem with the argument I am making is.

What my point is, is that out of any surrounding context its no different to any other rune. If we include that other context those other problems look different because they do not have the logistical might of the cult of Valaya behind them, they are longer term issues and we have not performed a project that is built around collectivization like we have with Arm Them. The foundation for the problem is a lot weaker and easier to deal with, and doesn't carry the risk of schism somewhere in the distant future, it just carries arguments about the Rule of Pride. Equating them is I think incorrect.

Now since I've kind of specified my own reasoning on why I don't think trading these runes away is worth it, why do you think it is? What is your reason behind pushing for trading it?

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Thanks I think thats a good summary.
I mostly see myself as arguing to not take it off the negotiation table pre-emptively, and consider whether we actually do trade it to be a matter for when we see actual vote and budget things.
I don't care if we come out of the trade having given her it or not, I care that we have the option too going in.

I also think people are misunderstanding the real danger which is collectivisation, and by letting that misunderstand go past unchallenged I think we actually increase the risk down the line as we might make plans that repeat the mistake.

I'd also like to repeat, I think collectivisation was a questor proposed solution to Arm them.

what if Snorri sets up the organization for re limping dawi then hand over the leadership ,management and control of it to the temple of Valaya putting them in charge of finding and measuring those in need of new limps and setting up there orders while keeping his involvement to either filling out orders and teaching other rune smith the necessary runes as well as any improved versions putting on the same grounds as any other rune smith that decides to sign up and contribute

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It was not soulcakes default way and he even said

To be clear, there are ways to defang the potential arguments of the conservative Runesmiths.

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We're more in danger of players blundering into a bad end than we are Snorri running into one without our direction. Because we're a generally left leaning bunch of tech enthusiasts roleplaying in an extremely conservative traditionalist society, and sometimes we forget that.

The problem isn't Valma, it's who she deals with. Or at least her apprentices. If we continue making trades, other Runesmiths, particularly the Journeymen, may begin to follow Snorri's example. Who's to say that Valma's apprentices won't try to emulate their Elders? And if they do, there's no guarantee that those that they trade with will have the foresight and awareness of Guild politics required to realize that following Snorri's example is not the best move.

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Beardlings following the examples of their elders is correct and proper behaviour. The problem is them unionising not them all individually doing the same thing.

So, I'm not sure why you're trying to insult me, but okay.

I'm not even using the mindset of everyone betraying us, I'm looking at this actually kind of divorced from people and looking at it in terms of an entire plotline. I don't want to start the plotline, so I'm going to advocate to not. And to be clear the plotline has more than schism in it, since it could be good as soul mentioned back then, but I don't think the good outweighs the bad in this case especially since we're already getting most of what I'd want anyway from the project.

What you missed, I outlined above in other posts. We picked Arm Them + Cult of Valaya support. The schsim possibility is almost entirely supported on that choice. A schism between the cult of Valaya and Thungni, and also throw in general Rule of Pride issues with the cult of Thungni.

I agree in a sort of fashion that why is more important than who, at least in the sense that what I'm worried about is more closely related to why than who.

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That wasn't meant to be an insult and even if it was that wasn't aimed at you.
I was describing how I view you, I was describing how I'd interpret the way I think you want Snorri to act.
There is no reason that any of us have to believe that is how you act IRL any more than we have reason to believe that you have a beard several times longer than your body length.
I'm sorry if it read that way, but this might be a sign we're getting too heated.

I think we're getting wires crossed talking about schisms because I'm generally talking about an internal Runesmithing union vs the rule of pride potential schism.
I think the Valaya vs Thungni cults schism is pretty settled, on the basis it hasn't tripped for a couple of decades, unless something exceptional stirs it up. Now, that might be Arm them pt 2, but I don't think adding another person they can commission from ontop of the existing 4(6) is likely to do it.



Also threads moving too fast for me I think.

 

[soulcake]

She's willing to give us what she knows about Grontis and Elgi magic in exchange for what we know about Deep Magic. About the only things I can think of that we can offer her that has Deep Magic would be the Master Rune of Unyielding, Understanding the Master Rune of Unyielding, Compressing the Mountainsouled + Combo, and then Understanding that Master Rune.

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A runesmith who would ignore the chance to learn more Runes is a poor Runesmith indeed. Well that and professional interest, Valma is always willing to look into Gronti/Rune of Waking stuff.

Heres another question.

What do you, Snorri, actually know about Deep Magic?

 

[BronzeTongue]

I suppose at the end of the day it comes down to this. And as far as I'm concerned, refusing to trust anyone ever because they might betray us is not the mindset of a healthy well adjusted person.

Click to shrink...

This isn't about being a paranoid recluse, it's about managing open flame in a coal mine.

Spreading the knowledge around puts us on the hook for how it's used by anyone who gets it as a result. If one of the people who gets it as a result of a trade chain misjudges the political climate and tries to maximize the utility of the rune, as we ourselves have been championing across the north, we create an actively dangerous political climate for the empire as a whole.

We can trust in the good intentions of others all we want, but trusting the political skills of an unknown number of people we haven't met - some of which might not even be born yet - is foolish.

We're better off waiting till we've defused the situation in some way before we open up this particular can of worms.

 

[Jreengus]

So I think Dark as Silver and I are on pretty much the same page so I won't repeat their arguments, but I have question for those against the trade. How would people feel about trading the rune of prostethis instead? I think Valma should be skilled enough to come up with the RoFL from it (especially since she'll know it can be done and have examples) but the fact that we deliberately traded her the lesser rune and forced her to develop the better version herself would send a clearer message that the RoFL isn't something she should share without a lot of consideration.

 

[BungieONI]

I was describing how I view you, I was describing how I'd interpret the way I think you want Snorri to act.

Click to shrink...

Thank you for not meaning it that way, and yeah we should probably table this discussion.

Anyway, moving on to other topics that aren't the coming rune trade.

@soulcake Given events going as they were prior to Dum, what is Snorri's personal estimation and expectation on the potential remaining length of Otrek's rule? We've been speculating that he might abdicate in a while and essentially retire, but it occurred to me Snorri might have a better grasp of it than we do.

 

[EldritchObserver]

What do you, Snorri, actually know about Deep Magic?

Click to shrink...

It can improve Runes beyond their standard parameters and makes then last longer; It has some weird effect on Gronti that I don't think Valma ever explained to us; It is connected to the planet.

Besides that? Not much.

 

[soulcake]

@soulcake Given events going as they were prior to Dum, what is Snorri's personal estimation and expectation on the potential remaining length of Otrek's rule? We've been speculating that he might abdicate in a while and essentially retire, but it occurred to me Snorri might have a better grasp of it than we do.

Click to shrink...

Snorri reckons that Otrek's got at least a century left in him. The King hasn't shown much outward sign of slowing down or ageing, but he isn't in the know with Clan Ironarm's personal relationships and the like. A lot of the King's attention has been taken up with incorporating the Zornish which is sensible given just how different the average Kraka Drakk Dawi is compared to the new Zorn immigrants.

 

[Dark as Silver]

What do you, Snorri, actually know about Deep Magic?

Click to shrink...

Not much?
I think we've mostly blundered into it by accident and vision quest the same way we got the MPurification.
...
Also if we could add to the bounty board an omake about an AU where Snorri is a stoner and gets his visions from smoking weed, I feel that would be interesting.

Thank you for not meaning it that way, and yeah we should probably table this discussion.

Click to shrink...

If we were going to judge people by the way we acted in games, I would never spend 5 mins in a room with someone who played skyrim.

 

[BungieONI]

Snorri reckons that Otrek's got at least a century left in him. The King hasn't shown much outward sign of slowing down or ageing, but he isn't in the know with Clan Ironarm's personal relationships and the like. A lot of the King's attention has been taken up with incorporating the Zornish which is sensible given just how different the average Kraka Drakk Dawi is compared to the new Zorn immigrants.

Click to shrink...

Makes sense on all three counts, my own personal estimate was in the realm of "if he's around seven hundred now he'll probably keep going till he's around Snorri's current age". He's about a generation younger, but has a lot of pep and vigor so I figured he'd kick around till the Zorn situation is handled enough to not blow up in his kid's lap.

I could also see that taking a century or so to deal with properly, as another reason for him to kick around for that long.

 

[MrHobbit]

Hmm, Snorri's notes about the Greedy One's Heart might have stuff about Deep Magic that Valma might use. Snorri might not have been able to identify it as Deep Magic at the time, but in context it might slide into place? Not sure if it'd be enough for her not to be disappointed though. I think Valma thinks Snorri knows more about Deep Magic than he actually does.

- Epiphany! 1d2 +2 =3 progress to random research. Greedy One's Heart completed

Gain:
- Greedy One's Heart Trait Revealed, Pulling from the Deep: Energy eternal, drawing without end from the deepest places of the earth and the oldest magics. Whatever Rune is made from this baleful thing will not only be incredibly powerful, beyond even the scope of the original rune, but also never falter, never cease, and endure until the world's ending.

Click to shrink...

 

[Thor's Twin]

What do you, Snorri, actually know about Deep Magic?

Click to shrink...

Challenge Accepted!

1. It exists.

This is actually some pretty key knowledge because as long as we know that it exists we know that we aren't chasing after a Red Herring

2. It is useable.

Again, basic information, but we need to set a proper framework! As long as we know it exists and that it is useable it stands to reason that it is not a gamble trying to tap into the Deep Magic to empower different runes.

3. Using it requires something to draw it up.

It exists and is useable, but is not easily accessible. It requires some nebulous "thing" to draw the energy from its source to empower runes.

3a. Runes can be empowered by Deep Magic.

Useful information to have. It describes a potential characteristic of the Deep Magic as an actual source of magic and not natural phenomena.

3b. Runes empowered by the Deep Magic last longer

Useful information to have as it describes a characteristic of the Deep Magic, why exactly this is the case we don't know and would fall under conjecture.

3c. Runes empowered by the Deep Magic perform at higher rates

Useful information to have as it describes a characteristic of the Deep Magic, why exactly this is the case we don't know and would fall under conjecture.

4. The source seems to be fundamental Geological processes.

Based on our visions, the best guess as to the source of the Deep Magic is fundamental geological processes that happen constantly but take place over eons of time. The same processes that cause volcanoes to erupt, islands to form, and mountains to rise and fall.

5. The Master Rune of Waking interacts with the Deep Magic on some level.

This information was confirmed by Lady Valma on the route to Karag Dum.

Now it is time for some Conjecture!

Deep Magic is more stable than the winds which normally fuel the Runes. This would explain the longevity of the runes using the Deep Magic and could be the difference between the chaotic winds which change in a second and the steady power of the Earth which takes eons for a change to occur.

Deep Magic is either more potent or is so stable that more can be used in a rune without running the risk of overpowering it. Two different options that we won't be able o really distinguish unless we can precisely measure how much deep energy is being used in various runes and compare that energy to runes using only the Winds of Magic.

Deep Magic will be stronger in areas of strong geological activity. If the Deep Magic is in fact sourced from Geological activity, then being in areas of intense activity compared to areas of stability might have differences.


Now it is time for some Possible avenues of Research!

Based on information 4 and 5 a good place to start researching the Deep Magic would be to correlate runes that invoke fundamental geological processes and the Master rune of Waking. Such runes might include the Rune of Stone, variants of the Rune of Fire based around lava, and any other runes which fit those criteria. Additionally, check for similarities between runes that use tremendous amounts of energy similar to the Master Rune of Waking: Possible candidates are Master Rune of Conduction and the Master Rune of Snorri Gift-Giver. Similarities and differences between the energy used and where it gets that energy might prove a valuable avenue to explore for gathering data on how to best tap into the Deep Magic.

Information 4 might also be useful information to gather other data. Take exploration trips to geologically active areas (the Easter Dwarves seem to have a lot of them) and investigate how the Master Rune of Waking operates differently in those areas. Other theories should be explored as well, possibly by comparing the Rune of Thungni and Rune of Gazul to the Master Rune of Waking to detect differences, but more importantly, any similarities to the Master Rune of Waking.

Another avenue of exploration is to compare runes crafted by Snorri Gift-Giver while wearing Barak Azamar to runes crafted without wearing it. What differences do the runes now have which allows runes crafted with Barak Azamar equipped to draw from the Deep Magic and runes without Barak Azamar equipped to not. Special attention might be given to the Rune of Stone and the Master Rune of Waking.

Research that Lady Valma can do without Barak Azamar might involve research between different Gronti of various sizes. Presumably larger Gronti need more magic which would be powered by the Master Rune of Waking. If that is the case, there should be minute differences between how the Rune gathers the power and distributes it. If that is not the case, then why? What in the Master Rune of Waking allows the same amount of magic to power different sized Gronti? Find that, and you'll find the core power source of the Rune possibly granting insights into how it gathers and distributes power.

Collaboration research might involve the construction of two of the same Gronti, one with Snorri equipping Barak Azamar and one Lady Valma without and then comparing the two Gronti and noting the similarities and differences between what they do and operate.

 

[ArchAIngel]

Just poking my nose into the Rune of Speech thing, I suspect part of why we got away with that was Thungni handing out a collar.

We did a thing, then an Ancestor did a similar thing, is subtle but clear support of making the runic translation collars. If Thungni didn't think making translating collars worked, he wouldn't have made one.

No such precedent with Prosthesis.