Our issue isn't with Sendai, though, it's with Akiko. If we kill, rock or capture her, there's nothing to stop us from cleansing the rest of the group, and if we're prepared to cleanse them, keeping them dependant on us and short on assets that can be traded for mooks is unambiguously a good thing.

...except for the fact that that'll piss them the hell off and restart the war? I don't see Sakura taking that sort of thing lying down, and no amount of reasoning is going to stop her from trying to pound Sabrina's face in for killing one of her oldest friends.Even if she's new and innocent and open-minded, I don't think Rin'd be too comfortable with it either. I don't know enough to say about the other two girls, but if they were ok with Akiko getting pasted, they probably wouldn't've been fighting for her in the first place.

Anyways, off to bed now, see you in the morning.
 
@Cannongerbil , @Emdeman :
Regarding vote brevity:
One thing I note that seems to help a lot with compressing is not putting dialogue into a dialogue. Don't make an emotional appeal, say you are going to make an emotional appeal. Don't make a practical appeal, say you are going to make one. Ugolino and NSMS put forth very similar votes, differing mostly in tone.


moonstne has the shortest vote atm, consisting of apology, appeal to finishing situation, prying into Kato and checking with Fukushima.

...Instead of the 11-part monster of, say, you, Cannon, I can sum it down to:
[ ] Doublecheck with Rin on Akiko.
[ ] To Sakura: Explain how Sendai demand is impractical and make an emotional appeal for better life with your help.
[ ] Explain how other side has been negotiating.

Or instead of my 13-part monster....
[ ] Ask Rin about Akiko, Fukushima group payment and relay and rest of Sendai.
[ ] Point out to Sakura the benefit of you and the problems with demand.
[ ] Make a practical appeal regarding Fukushima, her goal and Sendai remaining alive by now. Use what Rin said.
[ ] Public announcement on where you stand and emotional appeal on Sendai to try to keep extortioning.

Though, why don't I do that for my votes(ignoring the lossy compression of Cannon's)?

For example, that Rin example - if I lay each one out separately, people who want to only follow part of the vote I put forwards yet have that part be blocced by two people can makek [ ] Ask Rin about Akiko, which will have more weight behind it thanks to that.

Would it be preferable if I did that?

@Kinematics :That vote looks much better now, but like I said I like your idea of minimizing seed demand better.
 
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Except that the abbreviated votes lost a lot of meaning. Dialogue matters.
I did say it is lossy compression - most meaningful vote would probably be exponentially longer than update to account for every possibility - but without compression cannot get shorter votes with similar enough meaning.

The way I see it lot of votes are just making same practical and emotional appeal on seeds and life by different wordings, and there is a demand for brevity.

It'd be neat if we could do...
- [ ] Hold an apologizing/defending/aggressive/friendly/frustrated tone.
That could get wording across perfectly, or even well enough to differeniate NSMS's calm but pointy tone from your initial's shorter and snarkier idea.
 
@'Lement
The major issue with voting with that level of brevity is that it loses a lot of its impact and we lose quite abit of fine control over how we conduct the negotiations. Making an emotional appeal can mean a lot of things, as is practical appeal. It is only useful for gathering information, it doesn't quite work for trying to convince others.

It's the reason why I didn't bring this issue up earlier, because there is no good solution. Go too far in one direction and we basically are handing control of Sabrina over and trusting that our intentions aren't misinterpreted, too long votes and we end up with the never ending shitstorm and vote fatigue that so characterizes PMAS discussions as of late. There is a decent middle ground to tread, but it requires that everyone involved fight against the urge to elaborate on their word choices, which is borderline impossible when dealing with social votes.
 
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Regarding information, given that we are Sabrina I do not worry about that here.
we basically are handing control of Sabrina over and trusting
A) Trust in GM. Has Firnagzen ever mishandled vote?
B) It is not like the dialogue always gets parsed literally either.

I'm speaking of differences like this
--[x] Look, you guys do realize she's demanding something that she knows for a fact the other side won't ever agree to, right? I'm offering to make grief seeds unnecessary. For all parties. Yet she is still refusing to budge on the issue.
--[x]They are not going to go for 30 seeds, it's unnecessary and it's not even really possible when they've been dying trying to get you seeds as it is, and you guys should know this.
--[x] Either that's a deliberate attempt to sink negotiations, or she has some serious hangups on this issue- ones that are keeping her from acting rationally.
and this
[X] It's not because I don't like what she's saying, it's because she's demanding something that she knows for a fact the other side won't ever agree to, and that's unnecessary on top of it, and completely refusing to budge on the issue. Either that's a deliberate attempt to sink negotiations, or she has some serious hangups on this issue- ones that are keeping her from acting rationally. I'm offering infinite cleansing of gems and seeds, with you at hand the transportation issue is near-nonexistent, and Akiko is smart enough to know that. So why is she so stuck on the grief seed issue?
They look quite different on the surface, but under closer scrutinity: Difference is roughly about phrasing order. Bit of tone difference too.

They are valid differences - I feel like those differences could be summed up in shorter form, though.
 
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And those differences are large enough for us to spend literally pages arguing over them.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this point.
 
That was... what? 10 pages? Let's just serve everyone microwaved tea. Drag Akiko by the hair to us and have her try our tea. Surely the tea has some components that'll bring back her sanity and be reasonable again. If Fukushima shows up, we offer them tea. Microwaved tea. If they refuse? Throw the tea at them and watch them melt. Tea makes for the best weapon and solves all crises.

[Q] Beat Akiko with grief tea cups.
[X] Cannongerbil
 
  • What other properties of 'Grief' can we change? Proven so far: Acoustics (?), shape, mass, density, opacity, color, reflectivity, corrosiveness
  • Microscale Control: (I mentioned this earlier in thread... maybe a 100 pages ago) How *fine* is our control of grief? Our grief music instruments says 'a lot', but what about 'active* control? Can we hold a solid piece of grief as small as a grain of sand or a strand of hair? Can we possibly control it on a nano-scale?
  • What can we do to imitate the effects of a grief seed? Does grief have a property like gravity? Does a seed leech off the corruption of soul gems due to the massive density of grief it contains? It's like a grief seed is dropped by a witch at 99.9% capacity.
We tried compressing grief; we could not.

We can make grief sand.

Since grief seems to travel from smaller amounts to bigger amounts, I want to see if a HUGE grief marble can be used to cleanse seeds.

Our issue isn't with Sendai, though, it's with Akiko. If we kill, rock or capture her, there's nothing to stop us from cleansing the rest of the group, and if we're prepared to cleanse them, keeping them dependant on us and short on assets that can be traded for mooks is unambiguously a good thing.
There's the answer to all our problems!

[q] Make a rock band.
-[q] Challenge Akiko... On the stage!
 
@Onmur: I think he means mass in density.

Anyway, I recall that part of the reason we split grief into marbles was how large amounts felt ominious, like about to act.
 
"We've Got Hostiles" pt. 26
You look at Rin. She looks uncomfortable, reaching up to adjust glasses that aren't there, and then moving to fidget with her hair instead.

Truth be told, you're getting sick and tired of these negotiations. Maybe that makes you a bad negotiator - after all, they can go on for days at a time, but well, if Akiko isn't going to negotiate in good faith...

But your patience can stretch a little further, and you can afford to push a little. More than a little, even.

"So what exactly is Akiko saying, Rin?" you ask, catching and holding her gaze.

"Thirty Grief Seeds, to be paid in installments, and me to be returned..." Rin says. "She also said to let it be bargained down to twenty... to try and convince you that she's not unreasonable.""

"Hm, no, I don't think so," you say. "Look... you do realize that there's no way the University girls will agree to her demands, right? Thirty or twenty, they've literally died for them already. You know that. And I'm offering to make Grief Seeds unnecessary. For everyone. And she's still refusing to budge. "

"Sakura, she's right..." Rin says softly. "Akiko's... being unreasonable."

"More than that, I'd wager," you inject, before Sakura can get a word in. "You know the University girls won't got for it, and she knows it too. So, what? Is she trying to sink the negotiations, or does she have some serious, like, issues about it, or what?"

"Jesus fuck, yes she does," Sakura snaps. "And you have your hangup about helping people."

"My 'hangup' hasn't gotten people killed," you riposte calmly.

"That-" Sakura says, and breaks off. "Fuck."

"That what, Sakura? Doesn't matter? I think it does, personally," you say, almost conversationally. "But y'know, let me ask something. Say I'm not here, say you get the University girls to agree to the thirty. What next? You keep on fighting for territory forever?"

"No, I assume we back the fuck off on them if they actually managed to fucking make us negotiate," Sakura snaps.

"And speaking of negotiating," you say. "Negotiations only work when both sides are actually working in good faith. Like, say, the University girls. You know that you've pretty much ruined their lives, and they're still willing to let it go, right? How 'bout Akiko, hmm? Of she isn't willing to bend on something, then I don't think she's negotiating much. Just demanding she gets her share. That's not going to work. Convince her to reconsider, or get someone to take over, or this is going nowhere."

"Sakura, I think Miss Sabrina has a point," Rin pipes up, unexpectedly. You'd almost forgotten she was there. "Maybe Yumi could take over?"

"With her fucking broken neck?" Sakura says sourly. "And you know Akiko won't fuckin' agree."

You fight the urge to sigh again. Turning to look at the rooftop where Sakura and Akik-

...

You frown.

"Where's Akiko gone?" you ask, narrowing your eyes at the single figure on the roof.

"Elsewhere," Sakura says, unhelpfully.

[] Look around for Akiko/the rest of the Sendai group
[] Press Sakura about Akiko
[] Talk to Rin
- [] About...
[] Talk to Sakura
- [] About...
[] Write-in


=====​

So I tried this last time, but it kinda fell to the wayside. This time, I think I'll insist. Point form the dialogue. I'll be reasonable about short segments that you want in specific phrasings, but only that.
 
This is so totally about Fukishima group and recouping losses. Going to try to vote for that again...

[X] Talk to Rin
-[X] Check whether Fukushima group has already been paid the seeds. Ask her to link them to you.
-[X] Relay to rest of Sendai
[X] Check surroundings with your senses.
[X] Telepathy to check what state Ishinomaki is in.
 
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Akiko can assume water form.

Fuck.


Disregard this, I appearently can't read English.

Hey, uh, did any of our battle plans involve fighting a sentient storm?
 
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[Q] Grief sandstorm, while willing the grief-sand-grains to be very, very hot.

"Thirty Grief Seeds, to be paid in installments, and me to be returned..." Rin says. "She also said to let it be bargained down to twenty... to try and convince you that she's not unreasonable.""
I can't imagine that's what Akiko expected Rin to say, there. :V

Akiko: "Try to convince her that I'm not being unreasonable."

Rin: "She told me to try to convince you that she's not unreasonable."

:V Great bargaining skills, too. I see why Akiko didn't want Rin at the table in her stead.

But well, at least Rin is talking some sense into Sakura. That's something.
 
Just construct a microwave instead, would be easier and safer.

Or grab her soul gem and toss into orbit at sufficient velocity.

@Onmur: We need to buy her a cold tea and microwave it.
 
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