Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

[Torgamous]

Not a fan of doing the telepathy ourselves. Yuuri doesn't know us and we feel a bit like a witch. It's enough to know that she's there and getting stronger. No strong feelings about Anri doing telepathy, but:

"Believe it or not, I really am trying to help," you say. Don't rise to her bait. "I mean, if you don't believe that, then - first, I have zero reason to fool you. Second, enlightened self-interest. It benefits me to be honest with you both because I made a deal, and a reputation for dealbreaking serves me ill, especially with Miss Tsuruya."

You gesture around you at the walls for emphasis, just in case she hasn't caught Yuki's name.

"And reversing Witching is one of my goals, so being honest with you and giving you something that I personally don't have as much time to sink into to work on is only good sense," you say. "I mean, if you don't like me, that's... fair. But I intend to deal with you fairly."

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We do need to tell her everything. Except maybe us seeing details of her happy memories.

[] Good news! She's making progress. There's noticeably more of an awareness in here than in normal clear seeds.
-[] It seems like this hope energy might not be totally fungible. The memories and feelings used to make it are more a part of it than I expected.
--[?] For example, a quick glance at it before I realized what was happening gave me an impression of a spoon.
---[] So varying the feelings and memories used for this might be a good idea even if they don't produce hope magic at the same rate. This might also be faster and more effective if we could figure out how to get other people who love her to also contribute.

Something like this?

There's pretty much no way for anyone to get involved in this without learning where Witches come from, and I don't want to drop that particular bomb on Mami until her relationship with Kyōko is on more solid ground.

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That feels like a non sequitur. Mami's relationship with Kyoko isn't what makes the witchbomb hurt her, so it just seems like finding something else to put before dropping the witchbomb. After Kyoko we'll be able to put it off until she patches things up with Masami.

 

[DataSnake]

That feels like a non sequitur. Mami's relationship with Kyoko isn't what makes the witchbomb hurt her, so it just seems like finding something else to put before dropping the witchbomb.

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Kyōko was Mami's first student. Their relationship is literally founded on the fact that they're magical girls. There's basically no way that being told "everything you thought you knew about being a meguca was a lie designed to lure girls like you into signing up for a fate worse than death" isn't going to throw a wrench in things. Also, Mami responds to bad news by clinging to Sabrina, which is literally the exact opposite of what needs to happen for her and Kyōko to get things sorted out.

After Kyoko we'll be able to put it off until she patches things up with Masami.

Click to shrink...

Only if we were already knee-deep in the process of patching that relationship up. As it stands, I would suggest dropping the Witchbomb before making any concerted effort to mend that particular bridge, because the fact that Masami blames Mami for convincing her to become a meguca in the first place means that any progress we made without addressing exactly how bad that is would be built on a foundation of sand.

 

[Rem]

I'd start with something way more basic and controlled than telepathy. Pulses of magic or grief counting prime numbers, maybe. Simple patterns.

I don't really expect success, but it's better to start small and with minimal space cabbit infrastructure assistance.

 

[Wyrd]

We do need to tell her everything. Except maybe us seeing details of her happy memories.

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I agree, both that she needs to know that she IS having an effect, and that there's no need to embarrass her by revealing those details.

That feels like a non sequitur. Mami's relationship with Kyoko isn't what makes the witchbomb hurt her, so it just seems like finding something else to put before dropping the witchbomb. After Kyoko we'll be able to put it off until she patches things up with Masami.

Click to shrink...

Here and now is not a good place and time to drop that particular worry on Mami. If we can show any kind of real progress to her in the form of results from testing this Seed, that should make dealing with horrendous truths a little easier. I'd also suggest telling her on a weekend, because school is important to Mami, and there's no way she'd be up to going back to school for at least a day. Yes, Mami has shown a willingness to drop school if she feels it is important enough, but respecting what she values simply because she values it is part of being in a healthy relationship.

As for the people voting to immediately contact the Seed via telepathy, we have made explicit promises NOT to be so cavalier about dangers to ourself and to take proper precautions. I suggest we come back to this with Homura and Sayaka. We've theorized that the pseudo-Soul Gems Sayaka's power creates might be part of de-Witching, so seeing what happens when she tries her power on the Seed might be an important step. With our new interconnectedness thanks to Yuki's claims, I suggest we also invite Nico to the test, and suggest we have Sayaka attempt to copy from one of the bodyless victims Nico's looking to restore first, simply to establish that she can and see if there's any danger to Sayaka by trying a safer option first.

 

[FeepingCreature]

Can we grief summon/enchant a hope magic visualizer so Yuuri has some tangible feedback what's happening with the seed?

 

[........]

I can't remember if it was brought up back in the day when I first floated the possibility of using Hope in the first place, but a thought I had back then was that Hope was the key, but it also might not be enough by itself. A person is more than the sums of their hope and despair, after all. Keep using Hope for now, but if you hit a road block be ready to start cramming other emotions in there too, both positive and negative.

 

[IToadlyFrogot]

I think the latest update is threadmarked wrong. Unless there is a secret Hazard Course Pt. 47 that I've missed.

 

[Kebabulon]

I think the latest update is threadmarked wrong. Unless there is a secret Hazard Course Pt. 47 that I've missed.

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There also isn't a winning vote or a vote in abeyance either. (Though neither is strictly necessary I guess)

Although it's not the same as soul snuggles and controlling a familiar, I do agree that we still shouldn't do telepathy on the grief seed without a spotter. Side note: If we do telepathy on Arzt Kochen, would Kyuubey be able to sense who we're trying to talk to?

[X] "Good news! Looks like you're making progress."
-[X] Tell Anri what we sense about Arzt Kochen aside from us seeing details of her happy memories.
-[X] If Anri wants to attempt telepathy herself, spot her.
[X] Discuss Asunaro Almonds with Anri afterwards.

 

[Wyrd]

Side note: If we do telepathy on Arzt Kochen, would Kyuubey be able to sense who we're trying to talk to?

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We don't even know if it can eavesdrop on meguca to meguca telepathy. We assume it can, as it is better to be safe than sorry with the really sensitive information, but we don't actually know for certain.

We do need a good vote, though, as we've discussed it some but not put any of that to official votes. It'd stink for "use telepathy now" to win just because we couldn't write up and get people to vote for something better. I do find "-[X] If Anri wants to attempt telepathy herself, spot her." to be an interesting idea, as Sabrina would be the best person to spot anybody else attempting it.

 

[Torgamous]

We don't even know if it can eavesdrop on meguca to meguca telepathy. We assume it can, as it is better to be safe than sorry with the really sensitive information, but we don't actually know for certain.

Click to shrink...

It can eavesdrop on meguca to meguca telepathy for the same reason that your phone company can eavesdrop on your calls. It's not meguca to meguca telepathy, it's meguca to Kyubey to meguca telepathy.

[X] "Good news! Looks like you're making progress."
-[X] Tell Anri what we sense about Arzt Kochen aside from us seeing details of her happy memories.
-[X] If Anri wants to attempt telepathy herself, spot her.

Still not a fan of bringing up evil nuts. The ethics of that line of experimentation are dubious at best, and what she's doing now seems to be working.

 

[Shadowhisker]

[X] Torgamous

 

[DragonOfAtlantis]

[X] "Good news! Looks like you're making progress."
-[X] Tell Anri what we sense about Arzt Kochen aside from us seeing details of her happy memories.
-[X] If Anri wants to attempt telepathy herself, spot her.

 

[Edison_Trent]

[X] "Good news! Looks like you're making progress."
-[X] Tell Anri what we sense about Arzt Kochen aside from us seeing details of her happy memories.
-[X] If Anri wants to attempt telepathy herself, spot her.

Agreed on the Almonds. They were a mess in canon and if Hope flavored magic infusions fail, then it will have been long enough that trying to make reverse-Almonds can be epilogue type stuff.
Semi-related note, I don't agree with trying any form of negative-flavored emotion magic. Witches clearly generate that stuff on their own and they are the antithesis of an emotionally healthy Soul(gem), that being one full of Hope.
I guess you could argue that it very technically is a step towards getting them a body back (e.g. hatching a Witch), but that's clearly the opposite direction from actual de-witching.

P.S.Edit: Wrap our friends in Hope flavored angel wings.

 

[neutronium95]

[X] "Good news! Looks like you're making progress."
-[X] Tell Anri what we sense about Arzt Kochen aside from us seeing details of her happy memories.
-[X] If Anri wants to attempt telepathy herself, spot her.

 

[DataSnake]

Semi-related note, I don't agree with trying any form of negative-flavored emotion magic. Witches clearly generate that stuff on their own and they are the antithesis of an emotionally healthy Soul(gem), that being one full of Hope.

Click to shrink...

I'm not even sure encouraging her to try other positive emotions is the best idea unless we have some way of knowing that she won't tap into the power of love the way Homucifer did. The last thing we need is another goddess running around, especially one who still has a grudge against our friends.

 

[Torgamous]

I'm not even sure encouraging her to try other positive emotions is the best idea unless we have some way of knowing that she won't tap into the power of love the way Homucifer did. The last thing we need is another goddess running around, especially one who still has a grudge against our friends.

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My suggestion was not "other positive emotions," it's "vary the memories to make the emotions." You don't want to pump Yuuri full of just that one time she gave Anri a good luck spoon.

 

[Kebabulon]

My suggestion was not "other positive emotions," it's "vary the memories to make the emotions." You don't want to pump Yuuri full of just that one time she gave Anri a good luck spoon.

Click to shrink...

I got the impression that there were more memories than just the spoon, just that we were trying to not sense them too much since it felt uncomfortable.

Of overwhelming delight of wobbly first steps in another's arms, of shared meals, of a spoon, traded as a good luck charm.

You turn your mind's eye away from that. It's voyueristic, in a way, despite the fact that you know your friends' stories in equally intimate detail.

Click to shrink...

 

[Torgamous]

I got the impression that there were more memories than just the spoon, just that we were trying to not sense them too much since it felt uncomfortable.

Click to shrink...

Still not the point. The point is that we've been treating this as a matter of putting the most hope magic in it, with some theorizing that other emotions might be good to add. Now, the fact that we could see the spoon memory in the hope magic shows that hope magic isn't interchangeable, and it might be good to make a point of mixing up the memories that get used to make the hope magic for the sake of variety. Because hope magic isn't just hope magic, it's the magic from the particular hopeful memory that made it, and different hope magic is different.

 

[Edison_Trent]

Still not the point.

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a point of mixing up the memories that get used

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You don't want to pump Yuuri full of just that one time she gave Anri a good luck spoon.

Click to shrink...

...you've lost me Torg.
If "magic from a variety of different hopeful/happy memories" is the goal, then that is already happening:

And at the same time, it mingles with the soft radiance of hope, of magic that hums of better days, of joy, of love. Of overwhelming delight of wobbly first steps in another's arms, of shared meals, of a spoon, traded as a good luck charm.

Click to shrink...

At most Sabrina just needs to give a metaphorical pat on the back for doing a good job.

 

[Torgamous]

...you've lost me Torg.
If "magic from a variety of different hopeful/happy memories" is the goal, then that is already happening:

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1. Is it happening purposefully?
2. Would there be more of a variety if it were done purposefully?

 

[Kebabulon]

1. Is it happening purposefully?
2. Would there be more of a variety if it were done purposefully?

Click to shrink...

Some quotes from the last time we spoke to Anri:

"If this goes well, and you're willing to continue working on this, I'll make arrangements with Miss Tsuruya to let you keep at it," you say. "Now... how it works for me is that I need to visualise, well, hopeful things. Hopeful, happy... and you need to guide it with magic into your hands. It's a bit similar to magical healing, if you've done that?"

Click to shrink...

"You don't have to tell me, like I said," you say. And you can respect that - you don't know her, you don't know Yuuri. Not really. And you're speaking from a position of power over her, effectively the one to sentence her to imprisonment. "But those memories might be a good starting place, and... reminding Miss Asuka of the good things she'd done might help her."

Click to shrink...

"There," you say, sitting forward. "That. You've got it. Hold that feeling in your mind, let it seep into the Clear Seed... yes, there, that's it."

Click to shrink...

Definitely not definitive but it looks like the variety of memories is being done intentionally ("reminding Miss Asuka of the good things she'd done") but not the part about actually infusing memories ("Hold that feeling in your mind").

Just my interpretation though. Could be wrong but the quotes are kinda relevant to the discussion.

Or my reading comprehension is just not working today.

 

[Wyrd]

It can eavesdrop on meguca to meguca telepathy for the same reason that your phone company can eavesdrop on your calls. It's not meguca to meguca telepathy, it's meguca to Kyubey to meguca telepathy.

Click to shrink...

The odds are really high that it can listen in. If nothing else, it is far more dangerous to assume it can't than to assume it can. It is, however, an unconfirmed hypothesis. Kyuubey may only make the initial connection, and any further connections are made by the meguca involved, directly, not passing through its network anymore.

I'll grant that Kyuubey has said that a given meguca was out of range, but that was not in the current timeline, where we know the range is at least global, and possibly reaches even further.

Still not the point. The point is that we've been treating this as a matter of putting the most hope magic in it, with some theorizing that other emotions might be good to add. Now, the fact that we could see the spoon memory in the hope magic shows that hope magic isn't interchangeable, and it might be good to make a point of mixing up the memories that get used to make the hope magic for the sake of variety. Because hope magic isn't just hope magic, it's the magic from the particular hopeful memory that made it, and different hope magic is different.

Click to shrink...

It may be worthwhile to expand to 'general positive emotions', reminding the girl trapped inside the Witch of what she has to live for, reasons to climb out of despair.

I wonder how antidepressants affect meguca. Their effectiveness is likely entirely dependent on how much they believe they will work.

 

[Torgamous]

I'll grant that Kyuubey has said that a given meguca was out of range, but that was not in the current timeline, where we know the range is at least global, and possibly reaches even further.

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In PMAS canon, Kyubey shortened its range during that conversation so it could pull the "out of range" thing without technically lying.

 

[Wyrd]

In PMAS canon, Kyubey shortened its range during that conversation so it could pull the "out of range" thing without technically lying.

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I remember seeing somebody say this in the thread, but not anywhere in the story. I could be misremembering, or the time I saw it didn't link to to a WoG. My memory is often faulty these days. What I recall was somebody other than firn stating that that may be what happened, or possibly saying it with a great (false) semblance of authority, as a few commentors have done since I joined. There's just so much sheer content to this story, that remembering those kinds of details becomes difficult.

 

[Torgamous]

I remember seeing somebody say this in the thread, but not anywhere in the story. I could be misremembering, or the time I saw it didn't link to to a WoG.

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No, you're right, there's no point in the thread where Firn says "range" outside of a threadmark in that context. It might've been mentioned in the Discord back when that was a thing, but fuck finding stuff from that.

I did find Oriko referencing telepathy wiretapping, and she's pretty reliable about that kind of thing.

"First off, I'd ask if you should be talking about this over telepathy,

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Would you like me to go through the Story Only thread tomorrow looking for a case of Kyubey interjecting in telepathy conversations, or is that sufficient?