Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

[Nerevar]

However, I simply don't really agree with the take that Mami wasn't wrong to react the way she did in the other timelines, or that a repeat of Tetris is within the realms of plausibility, especially if we so much as tell her beforehand that this issue is something we've been working on solving. (EDIT: I also disagree with attributing well thought out logic/rationality to it)

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It looked pretty obviously like the right answer to me. When you are facing a fate worse than death, death is preferable by definition.

Mami's sobbing explanation where she notes the only way to avoid becoming Witches is for them all to die fit pretty well with that having been her reasoning.

By the end of that loop, Madoka had hit the point of asking Homura for a mercy kill under the exact same reasoning. Homura pulled the trigger rather than let Madoka suffer through that if it was at all in her power to prevent it, even though it killed her inside to do it, just like it was killing Mami inside to do what she did. And in the final loop, Madoka's wish was simply a grander scale version of Mami's plan: kill everyone before they can Witch out. Madokami is significantly more precise in her timing and significantly more thorough, but it is still the exact same plan Mami was enacting during Tetris.

But that's enough of me defending my reasoning. I want to hear yours. Because if there is an alternate explaination, I think the only sane thing to do in any Witchbomb is to make a plan that works regardless of which of our interpretations are correct.

Why do you think Tetris happened? What do you think was running though Mami's mind as she was killing her friends? Where were her thoughts and feelings? What was feeding into them, and how can we prevent that from happening again?

I will note that my concern about a Tetris repeat is not actually centered around the "murder" half of Mami's murder-suicide attempt. I am much more concerned about Mami trying to kill herself than I am about her trying to kill Sabrina.

 

[Torgamous]

A simple way of starting would be to sit down with Mami and Homura in timestop or an isolation bubble to keep Kyubey from interfering, and tell Mami that in previous loops, when she learned this, she reacted badly, and we are worried she might try to hurt herself or someone else. We ask her to disarm herself before the conversation starts as a precaution on the grounds of her bad reaction in prior loops while reassuring her that while we understand why she reacted the way she did in the previous loops, things are different this time around. We ask for her trust and then, only after we've made absolutely sure she's disarmed do we go into the details.

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Emotional considerations aside, what in the name of Madoka does "disarm herself" even mean?

 

[Nerevar]

Emotional considerations aside, what in the name of Madoka does "disarm herself" even mean?

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Detransform and place the Soul Gem out of immediate reach, but kept close enough that her body remains animated.

That's as disarmed as I think we can make someone without resorting to anti-magic restraints. I'm open to looking into anti-magic restraints if you think that's a good idea. Since the goal would be for her to voluntarily agree to this, I feel like the anti-magic restraints would likely send the wrong message. This is supposed to be "I don't want you doing anything rash before we finish talking" rather than "I think you are dangerous and need to be locked up".

Obviously, none of this is impossible to for Mami to get around, but the objective is to increase the number of steps that need to happen before she can harm herself or someone else in order to give us time to respond to and talk her down from any crisis that may occur while we talk this through.

 

[JIMI94]

Could have just found a girl willing to self sacrificingly wish that every girls gem would pop when they were about to witch/wish for every girls gem to pop. If you wanted to be logical trying to figure the way to kill as many girls as possible would save as many as possible. Or see if someone could wish to have a power like Sabrina's. Or she could even have decided it'd be better to wait until they witches and then shot their seed once she defeated their witched in case she was wrong about whether she could take them or got unlucky, both putting them out of their misery and extend the amount of time she'd have to spare others that suffering by blowing up her grief seeds instead of giving them to Kyuubey. All of these are perfectly rational and potentially much more effective ways to prevent as many witches as possible, and if someone was being logical they'd want to consider these factors.

But she wasn't being logical, she was being emotional. It's not the point anyways 'oh you just murdered your friends but really you shouldn't feel quite as bad about it because you actually had a point' isn't gonna fly emotionally and has big holes logically.

Edit: being concerned for her well-being is fair and advisible though. No reason to let someone blow themselves up literally while in the whirlwind of emotion.

 

[Nerevar]

Could have just found a girl willing to self sacrificingly wish that every girls gem would pop when they were about to wish/wish for every girls gem to pop. If you wanted to be logical trying to figure me the way to kill as many girls as possible would save as many as possible. Or see if someone could wish to have a power like Sabrina's. Or she could even have decided it'd be better to wait until they witches and then shot their seed once she defeated their witch, both putting them out of their misery and extend the amount of time she'd have to spare others that suffering by blowing up her grief seeds instead of giving them to Kyuubey. All of these are perfectly rational and potentially much more effective ways to prevent as many witches as possible, and if someone was being logical they'd want to consider these factors.

But she wasn't being logical, she was being emotional. It's not the point anyways 'oh you just murdered your friends but really you shouldn't feel quite as bad about it because you actually had a point' isn't gonna fly emotionally and has big holes logically.

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Mami's decision that murder-suicide was the answer was logical. Obviously, she was emotional in a way that made her far less efficient at murder-suicide than she would have otherwise been.

Though to defend Mami's logic, the fact that she knew that depression would darken her Soul Gem and lead to a Witch out means that she also knew she was already on borrowed time. She didn't have time to find a potential, hope that was a valid wish, hope she could somehow convince them to make that wish, etc. Nor did she have time to start hunting down other random Magical Girls after she finished mercy killing her friends.

Regardless, my point is not to comfort her by saying she had a point. My point is that Mami had REASONS for doing what she did, and if we don't actually address those REASONS during the conversation, she may still end up deciding to kill herself and however many of the people she cares about that she thinks she can manage in the meantime. Whether those REASONS were prefectly logical or wildly emotional, they still need to be addressed.

So I'll ask you. You don't think she did what she did because of the basic logic of "death is preferable to a fate worse than death, so I should spare the people I care about from the fate worse than death that they have coming by killing them". So what DO you think was her reason for doing what she did?

 

[JIMI94]

You don't think she did what she did because of the basic logic of "death is preferable to a fate worse than death

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Seems to me like she did, but it seems more emotional to me than anything. Further, it also seems like a stretch to say she knew she could take them out (which would mean she'd lose them to witchdom, which she was trying to spare them). Indeed she did not, she just killed Kyouko and then got shot, meaning all she did was kill herself and someone who might have handled the truth better than her, who could have carried out her desires if she failed.

I simply don't think she was right, just that it is understandable to have been wrong in that circumstance. She's gonna feel bad about that having been a reaction, and saying she had reasons isn't gonna make her feel better while she's reeling from it.

 

[Nerevar]

Seems to me like she did, but it seems more emotional to me than anything. Further, it also seems like a stretch to say she knew she could take them out. Indeed she did not, she just killed Kyouko and then got shot, meaning all she did was kill herself and someone who might have handled the truth better than her, who could have carried out her desires if she failed.

I simply don't think she was right, just that it is understandable to have been wrong in that circumstance.

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I would argue that Mami had reason to believe that the other girls wouldn't go along with a suicide pact like you suggest.

I suspect she would have been open to one as an alternative to immediate murder-suicide. Mami was obviously extremely distraught during Tetris, and it is my belief that those tears are because even when you logically know it is what's best for them, ending the life of someone you care about is emotionally traumatic. I think she was only barely able to force herself to go through with it, and that she would have grabbed on to any option for that not to have been the thing that had to be done.

It's why among the options I've brought up before regarding Witchbombing Mami is offering such a suicide pact.

Regardless, since we are apparently agreed that "death is preferable to a fate worse than death" was at the root of her reasoning, can we likewise agree that we need to address that line of reasoning in the course of Witchbombing Mami if we want her to come out of this not suicidal?

 

[JIMI94]

Regardless, since we are apparently agreed that "death is preferable to a fate worse than death"

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Have we? My examples were to poke holes in her actions being 'right' from the perspective of that being the case. Given other girls would inevitably come along, both to fight their witches and to end up witching themselves, there's plenty of room to say they could end up simply being in stasis generating energy/could be retrieved by a wish at some point freeing them. It's also possible that they could be dying once the seeds 'hatch' from them (something we haven't confirmed ourselves unless Firn has said as much, though I think it's not unreasonable to work assuming that), meaning that gemshotting someone isn't doing much more than shortening their lives even more (and forsaking the possibility of one of them being able to carry on a hope of addressing the issue). Given we are going to save all the girls from the incubators have I'd say it's good that more didn't kill themselves, as it just means we can't save them.

There are other reasons to say it isn't necessarily the best option, but as it is you said it yourself we're more concerned with Mami's well-being here, which I don't think requires us to think she was right (since that's not the same as understanding she had reasons as you said) or going into a suicide pact (because we're going to save everyone and Madoka wished that everything could be fixed) whether we actually need to or not. I'd say not even considering suicide as an option have to take sounds good and reassuring to me, whereas giving it as an option makes it a lot more real and is alarming in its own way.

No reason to assume failure anyways. If it somehow truly becomes hopeless there's not a damn thing anyone is gonna be able to do against Dedolere anyways.

 

[Nerevar]

Have we?

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You tell me.

What do you think the reason Mami did what she did was?

I had thought you were agreeing that "death is better than worse than death" was what she was thinking, but if I've got that wrong, please explain what you do think she was thinking. Whatever it is you think she was thinking, I want to be ready to talk through and address that line of reasoning as well.

If it somehow truly becomes hopeless there's not a damn thing anyone is gonna be able to do against Dedolere anyways.

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Seems to me Sabrina committing suicide would stop Dedolore.

The only reason I don't see it being particularly useful is if Sabrina's in a position to commit suicide, she'd presumably also be in a position to cleanse herself. I suppose it is possible we could end up mostly full on Grief and being continuously blasted with anti-magic and need to use the gun Homura gave us to shoot our Soul Gem. Not a scenario that seems particularly likely, and if we end up in that scenario, we've obviously fucked up well before that point. But in that extremely unlikely scenario, I'd vote for it.

 

[JIMI94]

You tell me.

What do you think the reason Mami did what she did was?

I had thought you were agreeing that "death is better than worse than death" was what she was thinking, but if I've got that wrong, please explain what you do think she was thinking. Whatever it is you think she was thinking, I want to be ready to talk through and address that line of reasoning as well.

Seems to me Sabrina committing suicide would stop Dedolore.

The only reason I don't see it being particularly useful is if Sabrina's in a position to commit suicide, she'd presumably also be in a position to cleanse herself. I suppose it is possible we could end up mostly full on Grief and being continuously blasted with anti-magic and need to use the gun Homura gave us to shoot our Soul Gem. Not a scenario that seems particularly likely, and if we end up in that scenario, we've obviously fucked up well before that point. But in that extremely unlikely scenario, I'd vote for it.

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Regardless, since we are apparently agreed that "death is preferable to a fate worse than death" was at the root of her reasoning, can we likewise agree that we need to address that line of reasoning in the course of Witchbombing Mami if we want her to come out of this not suicidal?

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You are saying we apparently agree on that in this quote, and I do not. It is uncertain whether or not it is, which also does not require me to think that Mami is right to do what she did (and that does not require me to have reproach for what she did either). I both disagree with her logic in a strained state of mind to kill her friends to stop them from becoming witches, and with your conclusion as well.

Also while there is also uncertainty as to the reliability of being able to preempt an imminent witch (which could be a thing for me to suggest as well) I also see no situation where we must fall into despair, and any situation specific enough to force it against our will also could be solved by stopping whatever is preventing our cleansing our gem (which could also preclude destruction of our gem anyways). Either way we won't be losing.

 

[Nerevar]

You are saying we apparently agree on that in this quote, and I do not.

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Okay, so you do not agree that Mami was trying to spare her friends from a fate worse than death. What do you think she was trying to do?

 

[JIMI94]

Okay, so you do not agree that Mami was trying to spare her friends from a fate worse than death. What do you think she was trying to do?

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It is uncertain whether or not it is, which also does not require me to think that Mami is right to do what she did (and that does not require me to have reproach for what she did either). I both disagree with her logic in a strained state of mind to kill her friends to stop them from becoming witches, and with your conclusion as well.

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[Nerevar]

You apparently disagree, but what you disagree with remains unclear. I can see a number of things you might disagree with. That's why I was asking for clarification.

It is possible you disagree that Mami was attempting to spare her friends a fate worse than death.
It is possible you agree Mami was attempting to spare her friends a fate worse than death and you disagree with her doing that by killing them.
It is possible you agree with killing them and you disagree with her not being good enough at killing them.

It is also unclear what it is you disagree with me on.

Up here:

Have we?

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You cut off my quote in a way that changes its meaning. The full clause was:

Regardless, since we are apparently agreed that "death is preferable to a fate worse than death" was at the root of her reasoning,

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which you shortened to

Regardless, since we are apparently agreed that "death is preferable to a fate worse than death"

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I can't tell if you actually think I was claiming we are agreed on "death is preferable to a fate worse than death", or if you think I was claiming that we agreed that Mami thought that and that you cutting the quote off there was coincidental.

To clarify, I was not attempting to claim we agreed on "death is preferable to a fate worse than death". I had thought we were in agreement that was what Mami thought.

Then you disagreed, and grew increasingly emphatic that we do disagree, but I have been completely unable to parse what it is that we disagree on.

I don't think you repeating, verbatum, the words that did not successfully clarify the point last time will be successful in clarifying the point next time. But as you say, apparently we disagree.

 

[JIMI94]

Does seem I must have misread something at some point.

You apparently disagree, but what you disagree with remains unclear. I can see a number of things you might disagree with. That's why I was asking for clarification.

It is possible you disagree that Mami was attempting to spare her friends a fate worse than death.
It is possible you agree Mami was attempting to spare her friends a fate worse than death and you disagree with her doing that by killing them.
It is possible you agree with killing them and you disagree with her not being good enough at killing them.

It is also unclear what it is you disagree with me on.

Up here:

You cut off my quote in a way that changes its meaning. The full clause was:

which you shortened to

I can't tell if you actually think I was claiming we are agreed on "death is preferable to a fate worse than death", or if you think I was claiming that we agreed that Mami thought that and that you cutting the quote off there was coincidental.

To clarify, I was not attempting to claim we agreed on "death is preferable to a fate worse than death". I had thought we were in agreement that was what Mami thought.

Then you disagreed, and grew increasingly emphatic that we do disagree, but I have been completely unable to parse what it is that we disagree on.

I don't think you repeating, verbatum, the words that did not successfully clarify the point last time will be successful in clarifying the point next time. But as you say, apparently we disagree.

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Hm, apparently I did truncate you. Either way, her 'reasoning' in that situation is dramatically different from what she will have for feeling whatever she does whenever we tell her about the fact magical girls turn into witches when their soulgem completely fills with grief now that we're here, because she clearly has other much better choices other than dying now, like helping us to solve/improve the process of dewitching/filling the grief seeds with magic/positive emotions. In fact I'd say we should see if her powers can help with larger groups of girls enchanting a seed or somesuch. Contributing to a solution would be much more soothing I think. I disagree that we should have some suicide pact, or that Mami is going to try to kill herself if she hears this (and either way we're going to do the most important short, medium and long term thing whenever we do tell her, which is to be by her side, and make sure she knows we're going to fix this).

phone posting be what it may, I think this seems a better type out of my thoughts now that I'm on laptop. If not, I'll just have to keep trying until I've got it down right.

 

[ExploerTM]

Either way, her 'reasoning' in that situation is dramatically different from what she will have for feeling whatever she does whenever we tell her about the fact magical girls turn into witches when their soulgem completely fills with grief now that we're here, because she clearly has other much better choices other than dying now, like helping us to solve/improve the process of dewitching/filling the grief seeds with magic/positive emotions.

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That would be true if Mami was in something even remotely approaching stable mental state. We talking about a girl who had to FORCE herself to stop desperately clinging to Sabrina first opportunity she got. Mami is not okay. Not even close. So any decisions banking on her being calm and rational are doomed by default imo.

 

[Lopezelpesado]

That would be true if Mami was in something even remotely approaching stable mental state. We talking about a girl who had to FORCE herself to stop desperately clinging to Sabrina first opportunity she got. Mami is not okay. Not even close. So any decisions banking on her being calm and rational are doomed by default imo.

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Eh idk, maybe we aint giving Mami enough credit, after all there is a very big chance she figured out already the truth about witches and seems to be keeping it together so far.

Because really, id be baffled if the idea hasnt crossed her mind considering the literal pile of evidence presented to her.

Yeah she is not okay thats obvious but really no magical girl seems to be okay, id say how she reacts depends entirely on us really.

 

[JIMI94]

That would be true if Mami was in something even remotely approaching stable mental state. We talking about a girl who had to FORCE herself to stop desperately clinging to Sabrina first opportunity she got. Mami is not okay. Not even close. So any decisions banking on her being calm and rational are doomed by default imo.

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Well all things considered since we'll be intending to make sure to talk to her about this stuff thoroughly when we do, we'll have our best foot forward as far as words can go. I'd say best way to try to assuage her as far as evidence is to demonstrate quiescence of the clearseeds (demonstrating they don't seem to be generating grief/in some obvious pain state, and are also helping prevent others from witching while we create new solutions), explain the situation with the gal we have trying to have remagic her friend, and ask her to help us with dewitching, possibly with our enchantment training starting to involve that in some capacity (which giving her a responsibility towards fixing it that she can participate in I think would help her feel like she needs to stay around, to help them return to their living/happy state). That, and making sure she doesn't get left alone for at least the next hour or so, given a panic attack can last for 30 minutes at a time. I don't think she'd kill herself, but no matter what she did it'd be irresponsible to not have at least a short watch period. She's Sabrina's girlfriend for corn's sake).

Eh idk, maybe we aint giving Mami enough credit, after all there is a very big chance she figured out already the truth about witches and seems to be keeping it together so far.

Because really, id be baffled if the idea hasnt crossed her mind considering the literal pile of evidence presented to her.

Yeah she is not okay thats obvious but really no magical girl seems to be okay, id say how she reacts depends entirely on us really.

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I also think we underestimate Mami, but I do think she would struggle to hide her distress if she found out (I feel like she would immediately come to us if she heard, in the hopes that we can do something about it, which she would be right to think). She could certainly put on a brave face after the immediate situation since I think she could very much manage to say we can handle it, but I think she'd want our personal reassurance first, and would probably want to know immediately if she can help.

 

[Lopezelpesado]

Well all things considered since we'll be intending to make sure to talk to her about this stuff thoroughly when we do, we'll have our best foot forward as far as words can go. I'd say best way to try to assuage her as far as evidence is to demonstrate quiescence of the clearseeds (demonstrating they don't seem to be generating grief/in some obvious pain state, and are also helping prevent others from witching while we create new solutions), explain the situation with the gal we have trying to have remagic her friend, and ask her to help us with dewitching, possibly with our enchantment training starting to involve that in some capacity (which giving her a responsibility towards fixing it that she can participate in I think would help her feel like she needs to stay around, to help them return to their living/happy state). That, and making sure she doesn't get left alone for at least the next hour or so, given a panic attack can last for 30 minutes at a time. I don't think she'd kill herself, but no matter what she did it'd be irresponsible to not have at least a short watch period. She's Sabrina's girlfriend for corn's sake).


I also think we underestimate Mami, but I do think she would struggle to hide her distress if she found out (I feel like she would immediately come to us if she heard, in the hopes that we can do something about it, which she would be right to think). She could certainly put on a brave face after the immediate situation since I think she could very much manage to say we can handle it, but I think she'd want our personal reassurance first, and would probably want to know immediately if she can help.

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Mhm, Its why I still have doubts whenaver she knows or not or if she is either in denial or just trying to get more info before coming to a conclusion.

After reading that scene where Homura tells Mami she is a time traveler, she connected the dots so fast... She realized that Homura made her wish for Madoka and more, so I find it very unlikely she doesnt at the very least suspect the truth.

Looking back on it... Homura almost screwed up here... Cuz she almost admitted she had to kill Madoka in one of the loops, she only managed to say 'In the end I had to...' but couldnt finish.

And thank god for that because... Why would Homura need to kill Madoka? Mami would probably wonder...

 

[AndrewleTrans]

[] How do you answer?
- [X] Briefly give context to why Sayaka was targeted i.e how much potential Sayaka had.


[x] Vote in abeyance
[] While trying to divine answers about yourself...
- [] Conceal the answers from everyone else
- [X] Don't bother concealing the answers
- [X] Try to steer the divining session in a safe manner.

-- [] How do you address your friends' curiosity?
--- [X]Metabomb them(Witchbomb them if you are feeling funky). Appear apologetic and sincere
---[X]Explain to them that when they have defeated Walpurgisnacht, you will reveal (almost) everything.

Spoiler: Vote in abeyance

[X] for yourself, Iterate through...
-[X] Everything Oriko wants to ask.
-[X] Your own questions about...
--[X] Your status before you woke up in the alley
--[X] Where your clothes came from (in the alley)
--[X] What you've done when tranced, when it was significant
--[X] What you recall Homura's feathers are supposed to look like
--[X] Why your potential was strange
--[X] Who the voice you've been hearing belongs to
--[X] "Who is dreaming?"
--[X] Where is the missing fragment?

​

[/QUOTE]
First time able to vote. Maybe a little too ambitious

 

[Nerevar]

Mhm, Its why I still have doubts whenaver she knows or not or if she is either in denial or just trying to get more info before coming to a conclusion.

After reading that scene where Homura tells Mami she is a time traveler, she connected the dots so fast... She realized that Homura made her wish for Madoka and more, so I find it very unlikely she doesnt at the very least suspect the truth.

Looking back on it... Homura almost screwed up here... Cuz she almost admitted she had to kill Madoka in one of the loops, she only managed to say 'In the end I had to...' but couldnt finish.

And thank god for that because... Why would Homura need to kill Madoka? Mami would probably wonder...

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As I've said before, Mami is really smart. The speed at which she put together the pieces fits pretty well with her figuring out the implications of the Witchbomb faster than the others and acting on them immediately during Tetris.

It also fits nicely with her twinging on to Homura acting weird in Rebellion and covertly planting that ribbon on her.

That's why I want to ask her to disarm to the extent that's possible at the start of a Witchbomb conversation, because she will rush ahead of us during that conversation and we'll have to react quickly to get our arguements out before she can act on the same conclusions that led to Tetris the first time. It's also why I want to make sure we've thought this through from her perspective as much as possible ahead of time, rather than suggesting the obvious answer of just telling her and then asking her to talk to us about what she's feeling.

First time able to vote. Maybe a little too ambitious

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Fresh Meat!

You'll need to copy your vote out of the quote box or remove the quote tags for it to count.

 

[LadyLynn]

Alright, I've had my sleep and thinking time, so lemme lay out my thoughts on Mami and the witchbomb.

First, I think there is a chain of actual logic and reasoning that can lead someone to "i should mercy kill magical girls to spare them from becoming witches" even after significant thought and consideration(Even if I don't necessarily agree with it). However, Mami taking extremely drastic action within moments of learning about the Witchbomb is not indicative of well thought out, unbiased logic.

In my eyes, Mami was full of grief and horror over Sayaka's fate, and horrified terror of the prospect of the rest of them becoming witches. The murder suicide was an escape from that grief and horror, and a solution to that terror. And she was too overwhelmed by despair to consider a more hopeful path forward.

PMAS Mami, on the other hand, has:

1: far stronger attachments preventing her from being able to hurt her friends
2: extremely little faith in her own decision-making
3: an excessive amount of faith in Sabrina and her ability to work miracles, and Witches are clearly in Sabrinas wheelhouse.

Thus, I believe that we'd need a spectacular series of fuck ups for PMAS Mami to follow up on any "meguca should die" thoughts, especially if we give even the slightest indication that we're working on solutions.

My primary concern lies instead in that the witchbomb will:
1: intensify Mami's self-loathing and guilt over being used to recruit new meguca
2: intensify her disgust/feelings of violation over being turned into a magical girl
3: introduce newfound horror over all the Witches she has killed and will kill
4: Have a "maybe it's better for us to die" thought that she wouldn't act on, but would make her feel disgusted with herself for it crossing her mind

So, ultimately, I don't believe it's plausible for Mami to start killing others over the Witchbomb, and I instead consider the worst case scenarios to be her Grief spiraling, or otherwise causing unacceptable harm to her mental health.

 

[Torgamous]

That's why I want to ask her to disarm to the extent that's possible at the start of a Witchbomb conversation, because she will rush ahead of us during that conversation and we'll have to react quickly to get our arguements out before she can act on the same conclusions that led to Tetris the first time.

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Or, if she knows that we're explaining this to her instead of it being a fresh discovery for everyone, she'll know that we've thought about this and that the rest of the conversation matters.

I remain skeptical that any of the precautions you've listed will meaningfully affect her ability to do violence, and will mostly just function to show that we don't trust her. Instead of leading with "disarm now," lead with "fixing this is why I made my wish" if you're worried about her deciding in the middle of the conversation that there's no fixing this.

 

[ExploerTM]

Strictly speaking, with all bs Sabrina has, we only have to ask Mami to give her Soul Gem to us so we can more easily leech Grief out of it during conversation; we control Grief fog on molecular level, can form stuff out of it instantly and fully combat capable Mami was able to fight Sabrina only to a stand still. If things start going south - I have zero faith in Mami's mental stability despite everything LadyLynn listed so I assume things WILL go south - we can snap restraints on her and start tearing her ribbons faster than she can form a musket and try to off either herself or whoever would be nearby including us. And if things keep getting worse we can just yeet her Gem out of 100m radius to forcibly calm her down (in a manner of speaking).

I said this once, I'll say it again: we can make ANYONE live through ANY -bomb without them witching out or killing thmeselves; its the aftermath that is gonna be a bitch to deal with.

 

[DataSnake]

Honestly, if we take a "disarm first" approach like that, I find myself far more concerned by the possibility of her mental health being further negatively affected by justifiably feeling like we don't trust her to not be a danger to those around her.

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I wouldn't worry about that. If anything, the fact that we're taking precautions should be reassuring, since if there's one concern Mami has consistently expressed since the beginning, it's that Sabrina needs to take her own safety more seriously.

EDIT: On a somewhat lighter note, it occurs to me that the crux of Sabrina's explanation for how the Witchbomb is less of a problem in this timeline is literally "everything will be alright because I am here."

 

[Arum60]

Ok, here's my logic on the Mami Witchbomb:

The CONTEXT is different. Very different. As in, this is a completely different situation.

Tetris was born from stress (Sayaka), betrayal (ie. Realizing that Kuybey is evil), and "oh beep we're all going to become witches if we don't die" all at the same time.

But now, right here?

Mami already knows that Kuybey is evil. We can do it in a comfy spot. And our cleansing changes the calculation a bit- we can do so indefinitely.

Granted, the environment probably matters a bit more. And that environment includes "a functioning support group"

So, while the specifics are unpredictable, this is a *much* better situation.

And on the Tetris . . . Not sure if we should mention it? I mean, it's not really *this her* who did it so maybe it's fine to not bring up. It may only make her feel guilty for things she's never done. Then again, me advocating to *not* tell her would be hypocritical of me. At most, we should mention it as justification for our hesitation on telling her (if we need to do such a thing).

On secrecy . . . Honestly we aren't saying anything that Kuybey doesn't know so it's not particularly necessary. My opinion is more neutral though. And timestop is kinda comfy.

Basically, we don't need to do an "entire big plan" sort of thing. Something like:

[] First, we need a comfy spot. So, we need to go shopping, buy a large amount of plushies, and have the discussion on the plushie pile in our apartment. This is necessary because plushies always help. There was even one of those horrible 20th or 19th century experiments that proves it!

[] Second, explain the Witchbomb. We should be cleansing both her and our gems for the duration (and probably after as well)

[] Hugs (obviously)

[] Once it's appropriate to speak, *specifically ask her what her thoughts are about all this*. We can't predict this properly beforehand so now's the time. Communication is important!

[] Address the concerns. (This would probably need a separate vote)

[] If we need to explain our hesitation, we can explain Tetris.