Kyoukou might be good to hit at the same time, but Yuma should be postponed, I think. It might even be better to tell Kyoukou first, with Sayaka present to help her through it, because Mami is still in a pretty fragile state.
Yuma tends to take all the horrible truths the best out of anyone. Mami takes it the worst.

Or the best if you consider the fact that your options under the default system are die or witch out. As we've discussed before, choosing not to act, just going with the flow, is the easy way forward. But by refusing to take that step to actively choose death, you would end up with a fate worse than death by default.

Anyway, I think Kyoko and Yuma are safe enough as these things go. We can at least make them the offer to learn the last horrible truth at their leasure.

For Mami, I'd prefer to have Kyoko and Yuma fully bombed before Witchbombing Mami. I also want to make REALLY sure that we actually address the LOGICAL part of the decision to go with murder-suicide as a response. Emotional support is all well and good, but we NEED to make sure murder-suicide no longer looks like the best out of a collection of bad options.
 
...Okay, I have to know. Why the hell is the incident from Ep. 10 where Mami snaps and goes murder-suicide called "Tetris"???
 
For Mami, I'd prefer to have Kyoko and Yuma fully bombed before Witchbombing Mami. I also want to make REALLY sure that we actually address the LOGICAL part of the decision to go with murder-suicide as a response. Emotional support is all well and good, but we NEED to make sure murder-suicide no longer looks like the best out of a collection of bad options.
i though that my essay explained the logical reasons, what did i miss?
 
You didn't miss it. I just wanted to provide more emphasis, because people tend to round down to "emotional support".
oh yeah, Mami's internal psyche is heavily dependant on her identity as a magical girl, we have to do some careful surgery by removing the bad parts of it(Kyubeys lies, her guilt associated with her first and second loss, and the inevitable fate that's waiting for her) while keeping her psyche mostly intact.
 
We also never hear if it has other worlds that have been seeded with humanity, each world with its own set of incubators farming Grief, and Kyuubey needed a certain amount to justify getting transferred instead of "retired" in a very terminal sense.

No need for them to seed humans, the explanation to Madoka includes a reference to humans being an exception due to how organized they are even with emotions, but in no way is having emotions something exclusive to them.

Plus, the Psp game has a superboss witch whose description says comes from another planet.

Incubators don't seed planets, they just find emotional species in the wild and begin exploiting them. There are aliens out there in the PMMM verse.

I wonder if the formation of Wraiths/Demons is what originally caught the Incubators' eyes, or those of their creators. Spontaneous generation of life forms like that has got to be rare, and there had to be a time before contracting ever started.
they probably see it as a quirk of magic, a significally inneficient quirck of magic that is unnecessary compared to witches

We know what caught their eyes, it's just having emotions, more precisely, it's the fact that emotional beings produce a little more usable energy than they use during their lifetime.

There are no wraiths before Madokami, they are an immune response to her wish, so any explanation based on them existing before her are wrong from the outset.

Madoka's wish eliminated Witches. The continued need for meguca, and the formation of Wraiths suggest that Wraith generation may have been the natural state of thing, early in humanity's development, where they had reached enough intelligence and complexity of thought for emotional energy to start having a measurable impact on the world. There would have had to be something there, before the first incubator contracted magical girl, before the incubators decided humanity warranted a closer examination and manipulation.

Actually, there has been a precision in, I think, Wraith arc (remember it is said, not sure where) that Wraith are an immune response from the universe to try and removes the possibility of another wish on the level of Madoka's.

For *the natural state of things before the incubators* you are mistaken, Kyubey says in his explanation to Madoka that all emotions are negentropic naturally, but that without his system the only effect of it is that emotional beings create a little more usable energy than they use during their lives.

There is no need for any ennemies before magical girls come in due to Kyubey, and in fact, no need for any for the first magical girls, for them, you just need to have them live, which creates grief, then since they don't have any way to remove it from their gems, they inevitably witchout, and now you have witches in circulation for the next ones.
 
There are no wraiths before Madokami, they are an immune response to her wish, so any explanation based on them existing before her are wrong from the outset.
i would agree with you on this, but Firn is clearly hinting at Wraiths existing here along with witches, probably a side effect of Madoka's wish.
Actually, there has been a precision in, I think, Wraith arc (remember it is said, not sure where) that Wraith are an immune response from the universe to try and removes the possibility of another wish on the level of Madoka's.
Wraith Arc chapter 6, Wraith!Madoka explains the nature of Wraiths, their purpose, and the reason as to why they attack people.
 
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There are no wraiths before Madokami, they are an immune response to her wish, so any explanation based on them existing before her are wrong from the outset.
Even if that is right, a thing we have no proof for, does it really matter for a wish that is definitionally non casual? Does it matter for us, living in a universe where the status of Madokami is unknown or debatable, but maybe post Madokami?

This is why I'm tired of making mountains of assumptions. There's nothing to gain from asserting whether or not they seed planets, or the nature of magic before the incubators, we need to find the truth, speculation on scarce information isn't particularly effective.
 
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This is why I'm tired of making mountains of assumptions. There's nothing to gain from asserting whether or not they seed planets, or the nature of magic before the incubators, we need to find the truth, speculation on scarce information isn't particularly effective.

Yea, I suppose you have a point. We don't actually know the full extent/details.

We need to find a way closer to the concrete stuff.

Which means having a discussion with Kuybey.

So, I suppose we should format the "Kuybey Exposition Dump" Q's as well. At least we know that he doesn't directly lie, so we can get accurate info- with the caveat that Kuybey is indeed Kuybey.
 
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This is why I'm tired of making mountains of assumptions. There's nothing to gain from asserting whether or not they seed planets, or the nature of magic before the incubators, we need to find the truth, speculation on scarce information isn't particularly effective.
What does finding out the truth actually accomplish? Like, quota, sure, if Nerevar is right that's a potential way to get them to leave. Seeding planets? We already know there are extraterrestrial meguca, so what benefit would come from knowing whether or not the Incubators put their ancestors there?
So, I suppose we should format the "Kuybey Exposition Dump" Q's as well. At least we know that he doesn't directly lie, so we can get accurate info- with the caveat that Kuybey is indeed Kuybey.
Kyubey is indeed Kyubey, so we can't rely on it for anything that we can't directly independently verify. "What nanostructures do I use to make the Mobile Oppression Fortress sky blue?" is something we could immediately implement and see the results of. The plan to trade seeds for the grief in them, likewise, either seeds come out of Kyubey's back or they don't. Anything useful about the Incubator backend has a million ways to dodge the actual question, and if we get clever with the wording and manage to get a straight yes or no answer out of it then that just leaves the risk that we outsmarted ourselves and didn't phrase the question as cleverly as we thought.
 
We need to find a way closer to the concrete stuff.
Yes!
Which means having a discussion with Kuybey.
No. :(

There exists a girl, Niko Kanna, who has proven to be able to manipulate incubator systems with the creation of juubey. The best way to go forward is however she advises is best. If she says that a combination of powers will get her incubator passwords and email address then we should do that.

I don't trust any of your piles of assumptions about how we can outsmart the incubators with the correct questions. The only person would I'd trust is the resident expert.
Seeding planets? We already know there are extraterrestrial meguca, so what benefit would come from knowing whether or not the Incubators put their ancestors there?
Do we know that? All I remember is a wiki fan theory for a particular witch. Also, examining the entire scope of their operation might show successfully examples of kicking the incubators off planet, or other ways of using emotional energy.
 
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Do we know that? All I remember is a wiki fan theory for a particular witch. Also, examining the entire scope of their operation might show successfully examples of kicking the incubators off planet, or other ways of using emotional energy.
So we've gone from "are the Incubators seeding planets?" to "learn the entire scope of their operations," a thing Firn has said before doesn't actually matter to the story.
Which is precisely why I've never brought it up in thread. It's my pet hypothesis, I've worked out sufficient answers for my own satisfaction, but it's just not relevant to the story.

Lemme reiterate that:

It's not relevant to PMAS.
No, it isn't.


This, thank you.
 
So we've gone from "are the Incubators seeding planets?" to "learn the entire scope of their operations," a thing Firn has said before doesn't actually matter to the story.
How aliens handled the incubator's extraction activities, or how their society handles magical transhuman supersoldiers is useful information.

The manipulation of universal constants is less relevant.
 
You mean the girl who's assumption that Incubator terminals could independently cleanse Soul Gems led to her teammates Witching out?
Yes. Even working on false and misleading assumptions she was able to gain results. Given a blank check on powers and fully informed of everything we know I'm sure she will do wonders.

For absolute sure she will be more reliable than attempting to sift through our very muddled understanding of the incubators.

EDIT. I don't hold the actions that never happened against a girl trying their best, but I'm sure that informing her about the actions that caused her friends to witch out will make Niko not give that same benefit to the incubator.
 
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Yes. Even working on false and misleading assumptions she was able to gain results. Given a blank check on powers and fully informed of everything we know I'm sure she will do wonders.

For absolute sure she will be more reliable than attempting to sift through our very muddled understanding of the incubators.
I don't want to denigrate her abilities or her accomplishments, because they are absolutely amazing. But we need to avoid looking to singular saviors. Nico's got a lot to contribute, and I'm excited to work with her. But we shouldn't pin all our hopes on her mad science. She needs to have her work looked over and peer reviewed. Checking against our metaknowledge is one way that can be done, but once we're past the realm where we already know the answers, we're going to need to remember the girl can just be wrong.
 
looked over and peer reviewed.
Sure, measure twice cut once, but meguca who have demonstrated an understanding of incubator systems are thin on the ground.

Training up people with what little we do know and recruiting people with the skills or experience should definitely be a priority, if only to take some workload off Niko. Heck, odds alone mean that there has to be more worldwide as the incubators are at the heart of a lot of problems facing a lot of magical girls.
 
i mean, Kyubey has done this for a long time(alien megucas exist) and you need some sort of catalyst to gain macial powers, Kyubey makes the process more energy efficient, but the process itself is largely unchanged.

Kyuubey acting as a catalyst doesn't mean that that was always necessary, nor that the results of other methods were negligible from our perspetive. Kyuubey makes the system much more efficient and focused, but anybody with enough potential to give themselves magic is going to be somebody Kyuubey would be pursuing aggressively, such as Madoka.

From a linked manga page, apparently Kyuubey has made contracts with the rare male with sufficient potential.

We've already seen in Mandalay that Yuki can just find a suitable building on the spot, so going through a whole thing about which building she can claim is totally unnecessary.

She wants places she knows won't be messed with. Putting it on Oriko's property means that nobody not part of the group will be so much as walking near it, an gives Oriko an exit option for emergencies.

Yuma tends to take all the horrible truths the best out of anyone. Mami takes it the worst.

Yes, but do you think Kyoukou would forgive us for telling her?

There are no wraiths before Madokami, they are an immune response to her wish, so any explanation based on them existing before her are wrong from the outset.

There are familiars. Those are, in some sense, the Wraiths that feed on emotion, just tied to a Witch. The exact form and concentrations of them may be the universe's response to Madoka's wish, or it could be the universe's response to there no longer being Witches, and thus no longer being beings that collect the excess emotional energy humans are generating.

For *the natural state of things before the incubators* you are mistaken, Kyubey says in his explanation to Madoka that all emotions are negentropic naturally, but that without his system the only effect of it is that emotional beings create a little more usable energy than they use during their lives.

Kyuubey's perspective makes such a comment less reliable than you might think. Without the incubators, humanity would be generating vastly less total Grief, so the results of life without them is a situation where humans are only generating slightly more usable energy. It could even mean "usable" in this sense because without it present, nobody is collecting that energy.

This is why I'm tired of making mountains of assumptions. There's nothing to gain from asserting whether or not they seed planets, or the nature of magic before the incubators, we need to find the truth, speculation on scarce information isn't particularly effective.

It's something to talk about while waiting for updates, and not being directly relevant to the story, as Fir has plotted, doesn't mean that it couldn't add value to the story under the right conditions. Background stuff that isn't a part of the main plot can still be very entertaining.

Wraith Arc says it outright, it's not an assumption, it's the truth.

Very important reminder: This is NOT the Wraith setting. All information gleaned from Rebellion is of questionable validity in the context of PMAS.
 
Anybody who knows japanese here, what does the word "Quota" mean in this context?
My Japanese is incredibly limited, I can read Kana but beyond that and some basic stuff I get lost.

That said looking around with Google the word used, ノルマ (Noruma) is about as direct a translation to quota as exists. Its the same meaning as it is in English.

Google translate and Deepl translate it to quota, and dictionaries list it as basically being direct.

It's a quota specifically one belong to the speaker.

It's pretty much the exact same thing he says in the subtitles and dub, they've pretty much made their energy quota.

The closest thing to an alternative translation for it would be "Assignment" but really in context that just about means the same thing "We've gathered our assigned ammount of energy" doesn't really change the meaning.
 
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There exists a girl, Niko Kanna, who has proven to be able to manipulate incubator systems with the creation of juubey. The best way to go forward is however she advises is best. If she says that a combination of powers will get her incubator passwords and email address then we should do that.

Very important reminder: This is NOT the Wraith setting. All information gleaned from Rebellion is of questionable validity in the context of PMAS.

So, I'm going to note that this world, PMAS, also doesn't match with Record. In fact, some things were explicitly different even discounting our interference.

So just because Niko could do it then doesn't mean that she can do it now.

And on the hacking note: I doubt that it will actually get us much info/influence. At most, we could take over an Incubator body without something like a Wish.

I think this for a few reasons: First, Kuybey is able to enter/exit Labyrinths with little consequence, as well as with little hesitation. This implies that the bodies are immune, or at least highly resistant to, magic take-over/corruption. Second, they are disposable. This implies either 1) They are remote controlled, so if we hack into one then it'll just be disconnected quickly- think a disposable avatar/clone/effigy/drone that one uses to go places that they don't want to go, or 2) they each have a soul or soul-equivalent but are still considered disposable despite that; meaning that we are unlikely to get anything useful from doing a hack. And when we do the individual will be disconnected in all likelihood.
 
So, I'm going to note that this world, PMAS, also doesn't match with Record. In fact, some things were explicitly different even discounting our interference.

Firn changed a number of details, some small, some large, since the goal of this quest wouldn't be achievable with some of those canon limitations. A rule of thumb is that the games are the least reliable sources of information. Manga and anime are much more likely to be right, or close to right, for the purposes of this quest.

So just because Niko could do it then doesn't mean that she can do it now.

Something I regularly remind people. She has potential, she has started her Incubator research, she's even made but not finished or activated Jyuubey. Exactly how far she's already made it, and how much she knows are impossible to know without actually asking her, as we know we've already thrown her story arc completely off the rails.

And on the hacking note: I doubt that it will actually get us much info/influence. At most, we could take over an Incubator body without something like a Wish.

How much we would get is debatable. Just learning more about the system and how their telepathy works would be helpful. I don't think we are well suited for that research, though, not at its current stage, and should get Nico and whoever else might be interested to work on it for now.

2) they each have a soul or soul-equivalent but are still considered disposable despite that; meaning that we are unlikely to get anything useful from doing a hack. And when we do the individual will be disconnected in all likelihood.

New bodies show up and continue the same conversation so seamlessly that I highly doubt that much of their mind is in those bodies. They're just drones used to interact with humans, with no more value than that. Making new bodies isn't so easy they don't mind them being destroyed, but that's because of the resources that go into making them than any real care about them. It's entirely possible that every Incubator on the planet is controlled by the same intelligence, one mind with many bodies.

This makes me wonder what would happen to an incubator pulled into our privacy construct's effects. It's probably best not to test that, as it would drastically improve the odds of them figuring out how to bypass that protection, but I'm still curious.
 
So just because Niko could do it then doesn't mean that she can do it now.
Juubey already exists. We were warned about activating it. Niko also isn't limited to robotically following the failures of the past, as we prove every day with Homura.

At most, we could take over an Incubator body without something like a Wish.
I was going to discuss the application of power enhancers or any number of combination of powers we could throw at the problems you theorized, but in the end of the day I will trust Niko to know what is possible, what powers will work and what the results are likely to be.

Take this.
They are remote controlled, so if we hack into one then it'll just be disconnected quickly
"Quickly" is not a concern when you have Homura to widen that gap, and a hacking attack powered by a 100m radius sphere of magically actuated grief computoniun, enhanced by however many sayaclones and hacker meguca, connection meguca, translation meguca ect.

Declaring that "it will not work" based on a shaky pile of implications is not something I can debate.
 
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