Eh, well, fortunately Urobuchi isn't here, so we can replace the central philosophy of the universe with Gurren Lagan instead.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
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- She/Her
Eh, well, fortunately Urobuchi isn't here, so we can replace the central philosophy of the universe with Gurren Lagan instead.
Sabrina is an outside-context person, and we're here to break the shackles of Kyubey's system, so...
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
"Preternatural sixth or seventh sense"
Mami's gonna develop a seventh/eight sense at some point. A Sabrina-Sense.
A lot of those Seeds were probably used to keep Akiko from Witching out.
Geez, girl, don't you know common etiquette while handling your Soul in public?
And who's going to fix the spiral nemesis?Eh, well, fortunately Urobuchi isn't here, so we can replace the central philosophy of the universe with Gurren Lagan instead.
UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
- Pronouns
- She/Her
- Location
- Somewhere
GUYS.
I HAD A REALIZATION.
We are ALREADY a system breaker with our every action.
Hear me out please?
So we know tthe whole karmic destiny thing right?
And destiny is usually defined as some sort of inevitable conclusion, right?
But read this:
Orikos power is seeing the passage of fate -> we are breaking it with our every action -> we are breaking karmic destiny literally with every thing we do
So that may mean A: we alleviate the burden of the "debt" others have to Karmic Destiny (KD for short) and as such break that balance too; permanently at that
or
B: We can avert any bullshit the universe tries to throw at us or those we are in contact with through our actions, up until their debt is paid off in an easy bearable way
And to picture B easier: KD is a debt collector who does not wait and does not increase the debt due to taking time to pay it off (the balance part of KD), but it will act like a mafioso to have it paid posthaste.
We are the policemen, protecting the one with the debt from the "you will pay NOW, even if it kills you" treatment and ensure, that they can pay their debt of in bits and pieces.
TL;DR: We break Karmic Balance through our every act, as the universe can not break its own rules trying to defy us, so we in turn can use our ability to avert destiny for whoever we care for to make them achieve feats outside their Potential by making sure the effects do not break them into pieces.
We exist outside the passage of fate and so can overcome the universe, as it is, kinda like the Incubators really, also bound by its sense of ethics, completely incapable of breaking it actually, as we know that code of ethics as causality.
May have not explained it too well, but I have this conviction/mass of concepts within me saying, that Sabrina is already the system breaker, simply because she breaks Karmic Balance continuously merely through being.
I HAD A REALIZATION.
We are ALREADY a system breaker with our every action.
Hear me out please?
So we know tthe whole karmic destiny thing right?
And destiny is usually defined as some sort of inevitable conclusion, right?
But read this:
Orikos power is seeing the passage of fate -> we are breaking it with our every action -> we are breaking karmic destiny literally with every thing we do
So that may mean A: we alleviate the burden of the "debt" others have to Karmic Destiny (KD for short) and as such break that balance too; permanently at that
or
B: We can avert any bullshit the universe tries to throw at us or those we are in contact with through our actions, up until their debt is paid off in an easy bearable way
And to picture B easier: KD is a debt collector who does not wait and does not increase the debt due to taking time to pay it off (the balance part of KD), but it will act like a mafioso to have it paid posthaste.
We are the policemen, protecting the one with the debt from the "you will pay NOW, even if it kills you" treatment and ensure, that they can pay their debt of in bits and pieces.
TL;DR: We break Karmic Balance through our every act, as the universe can not break its own rules trying to defy us, so we in turn can use our ability to avert destiny for whoever we care for to make them achieve feats outside their Potential by making sure the effects do not break them into pieces.
We exist outside the passage of fate and so can overcome the universe, as it is, kinda like the Incubators really, also bound by its sense of ethics, completely incapable of breaking it actually, as we know that code of ethics as causality.
May have not explained it too well, but I have this conviction/mass of concepts within me saying, that Sabrina is already the system breaker, simply because she breaks Karmic Balance continuously merely through being.
Sabrina's not a very good "system breaker" at the moment though, if your idea has basis in truth.
Eh, well, fortunately Urobuchi isn't here, so we can replace the central philosophy of the universe with Gurren Lagan instead.
The best part is he'd do it.
- Location
- Somewhere
Well, she breaks the unbreakable, if very locally at the moment.
Infinite potential but not infinite power in finite time an all that.
And one could compare that effect of hers to electricity: dangerous and 'ohgodwhy' if used improperly and in nature only visible sometimes and very [UNSUBTLE], but with the potential for so much good it is figuratively (and literally in this case) a miracle for all that lives and hopes.
It only takes understanding, teamwork, effort, determination and investing time into it.
So Science and Social in [concept of combination more than sum of its parts] as it were.
Why not? We are literally ripping the Grief out of girls' Soul Gems. You know, the Grief that they receive for using their magical power of Hope, that can normally only be siphoned off onto another soul? We are taking it from them instead, even from the girls who have given into Despair entirely and gone insane (that is, from Grief Seeds).
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Karmic Destiny isn't the passage of fate. They're totally different concepts, the former one not really translating well and 'destiny' is really kind of super misleading.
While our breaking Oriko's precog is significant, that in no way even slightly implies "we totally fudge people's karmic debts". That's not how it works. Sabrina standing near Sayaka or Homura doesn't make suffering metaphysically less likely to happen to them outside of us actually doing something about it. We didn't increase Sayaka's potential just through touching her like a Vorlon.
It's very small scale atm, and that's not going to be easily expanded.
We, um, we might have? I mean, Sayaka certainly has a much more powerful Wish ability than she usually gets, and she's not suffering any kind of backlash at all; maybe we are increasing her Potential?
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
We're literally doing away with power's her Grief cost, nevermind that in a normal universe, this version of Sayaka would be beyond doomed, with such an useless power.
Sayaka's on her way to being OP thanks to Sabrina right now, both in paying for her rather high Grief upkeep, and for having BEFRIENDED gucas who let Sayaka copy their powers.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Honestly, the Boltzmann constant thing is such a Voodoo Shark. It creates a bunch of logical problems to explain something that already has a pretty obvious and straightforward explanation.W-what? Don't take this the wrong way, but that's just too bullshit powerful for me to believe. They aren't the freakin' Xeelee-
Oh.
...I'm scared.
That kind of depends on what last-timeline-Madoka meant when she said "fix everything", doesn't it? she might have just meant "save the people that I actually know" or "save the magical girls on Earth." She probably wasn't expecting her wish to bring peace to the Middle East or end world hunger.
We know from PMKM and our own privacy field that it's possible to create an anti-Incubator barrier. If we put one around the Earth, then Kyubey can no longer exploit humanity and can only receive grief from us on our terms. Would that be sufficiently fixed for Madoka's purposes?
Without doing that or something like it to be able to approach them from a position of strength, however, negotiating with the Incubators is likely impossible. Without leverage, all that we could do is appeal to morality, and they have none. They don't care if humanity goes extinct as a result of their actions; they probably have a similar disinterest in the well-being of any sentient life other than themselves.
Agreed. If we bought into Urobuchi's depressing worldview, then there would be no point in participating in this quest in the first place: by definition, it would quite literally be a zero sum game in which nothing could be accomplished.Eh, well, fortunately Urobuchi isn't here, so we can replace the central philosophy of the universe with Gurren Lagan instead.
(I also don't put much stock in religious allegories. I prefer to deal in facts supported by evidence.)
They had enough to pay twenty to Fukushima and a weregild of fifteen to the University Group without much concern. And we told them that we can refresh half-filled ones, so there's no reason for them to have used any up since then. They should be fine.
- Location
- Somewhere
Well... I am like certainly convinced that you know more about all this than I do (I no joke honestly believe you do), but I just came to my conclusion based upon a few key things:
Fake Edit: third draft; sorry Aura, this may turn int a mini essay/walloftext/whatever one names this
I apparently have very much to say about this, so please let me do this piecemeal
Fake Edit2: The editing: Apparently less than I thought, sorry for the format, I feel I can communicate better this way, than if I had to write like three times the words by using normal senteces, no slights to you or the like intended and/or wanted
1. point: karmic destiny =/= fate
2. point: we do not fudge karmic debts
Fake Edit2: The editing: Apparently less than I thought, sorry for the format, I feel I can communicate better this way, than if I had to write like three times the words by using normal senteces, no slights to you or the like intended and/or wanted
1. point: karmic destiny =/= fate
- I meant that in the sense that the former is intrinsic part of the latter like how heating a stove makes it hot is, as in, unavoidable
- rules are only such if they can not be broken, when talking about natural constants, so, quite a few problems would automatically solve themselves if KD were not so big a thing as it gets spoken of as here.
2. point: we do not fudge karmic debts
- It was just an idea I wanted to voice for its possible discussion value for the cause, if nothing else
- I personally believe B to be more likely too, where we prevent the debt (the price they pay) from getting to horrible by forcing it to get paid piecemeal, instead of at once to 'the one who has the debt's detriment
- we reach this by forcing causality to play along, as in, using the worlds sense of ethics (a.k.a. causality) to prevent it from playing criminal extortionist
- But that is what I meant? We can prevent the universe from screwing them over by changing the progression of events that would have otherwise ocurred, like preventing a bad timed social bomb from dropping on Homura or Sayaka for example
- We are outside the bounds of fate, yet exist within its confines, we do make it less likely if we act to make it so in a given situation and have the right plan of action of course
- I meant that more in the sense that in our vicinity people are more free to do great deeds, as we have the ability to lessen their burden, which may get into a point I will put below this
By the by; due to this-
combined with
-could we be (and I am no expert on this) some kind of living Ar nosurge tube? (Edit: or a functional equivalent, of course not saying we are a literal one)
I mean
We kiiiiinda do fit the bill of a higher dimensional power source breaking all balance by reason of having access to pretty much unlimited power with the only bottleneck being how we can channel it properly.
Would explain the downside-less Griefcleansing, if the hope from the thread pays for it, like how a single ps3 is enough to run a colony-ship for 5 thousand years on its own.
And the best way to 'fix everything' is also like, through the power of benevolent beings equal to the creator, wishing for another end
a.k.a. firn and us questers against urobuchi through fanfiction questing.
Would be hilariously meta.
A penny for your thoughts? (metaphorically of course, way too much hassle and organisation work to actually do so literally)
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I mean they probably have been goign through Seeds like crazy.
In an ironic way, Akiko's paranoia seems somewhat justified.
Not really, but kind of.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Nothing irrational about fearing a shortage of Grief Seeds; it's the #1 cause of death among meguca. It's the part where that fear drove her to hurt others that I have a problem with.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
That's because Sayaka made a wish for karmic-fuckery. She literally wished to be relevant, and she specifically wished to be helpful to her friends and be a part of the team; she essentially made the good guy version of Kanna Hijiri's wish, in that she tied her own karmic potential to everyone else's and created a powerset based on it.
The main reason I don't buy that Sabrina breaks Karmic Destiny currently is because it's strongly likely that Feathers is our karmic balance.
Which is precisely why I've never brought it up in thread. It's my pet hypothesis, I've worked out sufficient answers for my own satisfaction, but it's just not relevant to the story.
Lemme reiterate that:
It's not relevant to PMAS.
The specifics aren't, but the fact that the Incubators operate at that kind of scale kind of is.
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
In any case, vote tally? Let's see where we stand at the present:
Editvote:
[X] Show concern. Differences aside, Akiko's a victim as much as anybody else. Offer help; defer to Rin's judgement.
[X] Clear Seed. Standard explanation, but include the changes in the contained Witch's behavior and how it relates to Grief transference into it.
-[X] Explain you're giving one of these away to every meguca group, and offer one to them.
[x] Let Sayaka ask about power copying, but don't do it yourself.
Mumihugs are default, guys.
Editvote:
[X] Show concern. Differences aside, Akiko's a victim as much as anybody else. Offer help; defer to Rin's judgement.
[X] Clear Seed. Standard explanation, but include the changes in the contained Witch's behavior and how it relates to Grief transference into it.
-[X] Explain you're giving one of these away to every meguca group, and offer one to them.
[x] Let Sayaka ask about power copying, but don't do it yourself.
Mumihugs are default, guys.
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Maybe turn around and figure out which assumptions you're making would have to change for the QM's statement to hold true before you accuse him of failing at worldbuilding and plotting, hmmm? Balance the assumptions you'd have to invalidate against historical evidence for Firn having made a mistake.
In this case, I strongly suspect that we should be using this information to build hypotheses about what's relevant. For example, it sounds like we might not be intended to engage with the Incubators on that level of pure physics, or that what they're doing with it isn't applicable to the current situation and the Incubators don't intend to do anything that'd use pure physics like that. It may be that the only way for us to engage with the Incubators bypasses that level of physics entirely and renders it irrelevant. It may be that we're intended to handle this entirely by managing energy production and we not need concern ourselves with that the Incubators do.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Sorry. Someone brought it up, and it's something that's been bugging me for a while.
(That said, I would totally be interested in having an in-depth discussion of this theory sometime.)
Madou Sutegobana
Autocorrupt has been disabled.
- Location
- Twin Realms Mandala
If true it would explain why the incubators aren't worried about the emotional races they contract with turning on them.
Because in the normal universe the scale from the big bang to entropic death of the universe dwarfs any lead a previous alien race that has reached a class 4 civilization has by orders of magnitude.
Long before they'd need worry about entropy, they'd find themselves on nearly equal footing with a number of their previous victims.