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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Ryumancer said:
Somehow, i'm now just imagining the whole 'bobsled rocket ship designed to nuke the Incubator's homeworld' scene from Homura Tamura, but Infinite Timestop+Grief Ship. Of course, problem is figuring out where the Incubator homeworld actually is or if nuking it would even matter (or if it even still exists, considering an Incubator-level civilization could've probably cannibalized it for materials ages ago)
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I´d presume that the Incubator empire (or whatever they call themself) is effectively indistrucible. They have had all of history with powers that are greater than anything our current understanding of physics would even allow (due to infinite energy and unknown amounts of magic) let alone grant, with no reason not to layer infinite contingencies.

I´d also presume that QBs has some kind of real use for us that far exceeds the usefullness of the milky way. So what if they might have to write off the entire region of space expanding at speed of causality? Only explanation as to why we aren´t ash on the wind, given how unpredictable we are.

My first guess would have been the griefspiral free massive grief generation, but QB already shrugged that off. Unless that was a bluff.
 
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Burned_Cookie said:
I´d presume that the Incubator empire (or whatever they call themself) is effectively indistrucible. They have had all of history with powers that are greater than anything our current understanding of physics would even allow (due to infinite energy and unknown amounts of magic) let alone grant, with no reason not to layer infinite contingencies.

I´d also presume that QBs has some kind of real use for us that far exceeds the usefullness of the milky way. So what if they might have to write off the entire region of space expanding at speed of causality? Only explanation as to why we aren´t ash on the wind, given how unpredictable we are.

My first guess would have been the griefspiral free massive grief generation, but QB already shrugged that off. Unless that was a bluff.
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I can also just as easily see it not seeing us as a threat, regardless of what we've done or plan to do. After all, while we might manage to build a world where no more magical girls witch out in the short term, nothing we've done has shown the potential to a cause real lasting detriment to the incubator's bottom line. Everything we've been able to accomplish so far depends on our own magic to keep going, and for all our strength we're still human, still mortal. When talking on cosmic time scales, waiting a few decades or even centuries for us to get unlucky doesn't hurt it, meanwhile we're building a house of cards with a single point of failure that will all come tumbling down when we're gone. If anything the increased stability might lead to more magical girls in total, and even greater dispair once that stability falls apart.

I've had an image in my head for a while of a short scene about that:

Kyubey, in response to Sabrina asking outright why it hasn't done more to stop her.

'I don't see you as an enemy at all Sabrina! And even if we were, I wouldn't have to do anything. You'll die eventually!'
 
Ridalla said:
I can also just as easily see it not seeing us as a threat, regardless of what we've done or plan to do. After all, while we might manage to build a world where no more magical girls witch out in the short term, nothing we've done has shown the potential to a cause real lasting detriment to the incubator's bottom line. Everything we've been able to accomplish so far depends on our own magic to keep going, and for all our strength we're still human, still mortal. When talking on cosmic time scales, waiting a few decades or even centuries for us to get unlucky doesn't hurt it, meanwhile we're building a house of cards with a single point of failure that will all come tumbling down when we're gone. If anything the increased stability might lead to more magical girls in total, and even greater dispair once that stability falls apart.

I've had an image in my head for a while of a short scene about that:

Kyubey, in response to Sabrina asking outright why it hasn't done more to stop her.

'I don't see you as an enemy at all Sabrina! And even if we were, I wouldn't have to do anything. You'll die eventually!'
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Except that, while the idea that all things die hold true for a while, when you layer enough contingencies they just... don´t.

It is possible to build the perfect defense, as long as one does not run out of resources. And guess who has an infinite energy generator hooked to her soul.

Sure, bootstrapping on that level takes the kind of timescale the Incubators have already worked for, but it is still a bit of an issue if no one intervenes.

Or perhaps that is just my overly prepaired "double tap is for the weak bullet hail the corpses" nature showing through.
 
Ridalla said:
I've had an image in my head for a while of a short scene about that:

Kyubey, in response to Sabrina asking outright why it hasn't done more to stop her.

'I don't see you as an enemy at all Sabrina! And even if we were, I wouldn't have to do anything. You'll die eventually!'
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We're keeping Madoka from contracting. It very much sees us as an enemy.

And yeah, calling us mortal is pessimistic.
Burned_Cookie said:
Ohhhh good point, so she suffers indiscribable agony till the inevitable witchout, got it.
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No agony. Soul gem.
 
Torgamous said:
We're keeping Madoka from contracting. It very much sees us as an enemy.

And yeah, calling us mortal is pessimistic.

No agony. Soul gem.
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Fair enough. I don't doubt it is working against us, but I can still see it viewing us more as an obstacle than an enemy. Enemy implies it believes we're truly capable of harming it on a significant level, which means it would have to put more energy in to seeing us undone beyond its base level of undermining the magical world in general.

And you're right, it is pessimistic to call us mortal. We know we are capable of causing real change for the better that will transcend the life of Sabrina (and this quest), because we're a hero! I hope I didn't come across as nihilistic in my post, I don't doubt that Sabrina is capable of anything we set her mind to (pronouns are weird when it comes to quests aren't they?)

But, hopefully, for all its incomprehensible genius we might be able to get Kyubey to underestimate us. Isn't that usually how these naritives go, of the plucky hero vs the overwhelming evil lol? It doesn't understand our magic or the strength it gives us, because if it did it wouldn't have needed humanity to farm for our grief in the first place.
 
Ridalla said:
It doesn't understand our magic or the strength it gives us, because if it did it wouldn't have needed humanity to farm for our grief in the first place.
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Lacking emotions doesn't stop it from making an accurate threat assessment.

Odds are it has a better idea of we may one day be capable off than we do.
 
Clearly the answer to "Why aren't you trying to disintegrate me from orbit, Kyubey?" will turn out to be "I am. Or I put in the request for it, anyways. All the battleships are preoccupied with a war 3 galaxies over, but as soon as they're done I'll get one."
 
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Burned_Cookie said:
Lacking emotions doesn't stop it from making an accurate threat assessment.

Odds are it has a better idea of we may one day be capable off than we do.
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I actually doubt this. Kyubey was surprised by Madoka's canon wish- something that altered the very fabric of reality on a level before then unseen. Something like that should have been an impossibility. And (assuming it wasn't straight up lying), the fucker believes in impossibilities, or at least foolishly impossible endeavors, such as when it told Homura that reversing Sayaka's witchout was impossible.

Thing is, with magic, impossibilities are possible. Coobie doesn't seem to fully grasp that. As such, the sheer scale of our ambitions (striking at karmic destiny itself, dismantling the meguca system, making death a thing of the past, stuff like that), combined with our current scale of operations (not even transcontinental) might surprise the rat.
 
Burned_Cookie said:
Lacking emotions doesn't stop it from making an accurate threat assessment.

Odds are it has a better idea of we may one day be capable off than we do.
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Perhaps, but I still think there's a good chance it does not. Magic comes from emotion, making it the one power that humanity has that the collective definitely doesn't. They might have equivalent abilities in far greater magnitude, but those will operate under different principles than magic does. It would be hard for it to understand everything that magic is capable of, since it has no way of learning of it beyond observing us using it. Plus, while magic has a lot of commonalities its also highly individualized, and we might be capable of things that no human before us were, meaning it's only verified data would be what we've shown it ourselves. It certainly understands our potential for destruction - we've shown enough of what our control can do and it can do the math for the rest - but I doubt it would be able to tell weather or not we have a real shot at dewitching, for example, or any other more esoteric effects that might be outright impossible for any force in the universe besides ourselves.

We're out gunned, out maned, and a few thousand millennia too soon to outsmart it. But we also know things that it doesn't, can't, and that gives us a chance.

Edit: ninjad <3
 
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I feel like I'm ready TO FIGHT GOD ROUND ONE MADOKAMI LETS GO

(CAFFEINE)
(I GOTTA STOP DRINKING 2 CUPS OF COFFEE)
(BAHAHAHAHA)

Also why do we keep bringing up kyuubey wanting to kill us? This is a conversation that I've seen (and started at one point) at least 4 times since I've been here, and the general consensus seems to be "yeah, rat boy wants us dead, and we believe the events so far have been him funneling shit at us and hoping we die".

It's a weird cycle. Someone brings it up, the conversation goes around, then it gets buried until the next time. I don't understand it.

This is totally not Kyuubey by the way. Nope.
 
To be honest, if it can siphon off even a bit of energy from what we do, if we provide a limitless and ever expanding source of power, it may not ever put us on a high priority list for messing with so long as they can continue to expand.

Sure they would stab us in the back if the opportunity presented itself (and are always gonna be looking to get that madoka contract), like with homura and the rebellion story, but otherwise they may just be content to lurk about and prod us into greater energy cultivation. We only really have one sample or two of how they treat opportunities for expansion, and we may not be a threat so long as we don't go out of our way to state an intent to destroy incubator civilization and start expanding enough to make it possible for us to make it believable that we could eventually do so (or at least slow them down, which would also be unacceptable).

They can always make another civilization like earth, but given magic powers are unique often, it might consider it possible we could provide some new resources it may not be able to look into, lacking emotions. Also given Homura is immortal, we are likely to keep Madoka, and thus her potential, alive for as long as we live, we may not be the worst thing that could happen to its plans.

It isn't our friend, but it may take more than we think to be considered something that needs disposing of.
 
Angrygenius said:
I feel like I'm ready TO FIGHT GOD ROUND ONE MADOKAMI LETS GO

(CAFFEINE)
(I GOTTA STOP DRINKING 2 CUPS OF COFFEE)
(BAHAHAHAHA)

Also why do we keep bringing up kyuubey wanting to kill us? This is a conversation that I've seen (and started at one point) at least 4 times since I've been here, and the general consensus seems to be "yeah, rat boy wants us dead, and we believe the events so far have been him funneling shit at us and hoping we die".

It's a weird cycle. Someone brings it up, the conversation goes around, then it gets buried until the next time. I don't understand it.

This is totally not Kyuubey by the way. Nope.
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Well if we're here to kill God, we're going to need a sword...

And sorry if I'm retreading familiar ground, like I'd mentiond yesterday I only caught up with the thread recently so I'm a bit behind lol. There is something innately fascinating about the question, a sort of morbid curiosity. "Could we kill god? Should we kill god? Does god want to kill us?" truly a dilemma of the ages.
 
Ridalla said:
Well if we're here to kill God, we're going to need a sword...

And sorry if I'm retreading familiar ground, like I'd mentiond yesterday I only caught up with the thread recently so I'm a bit behind lol. There is something innately fascinating about the question, a sort of morbid curiosity. "Could we kill god? Should we kill god? Does god want to kill us?" truly a dilemma of the ages.
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Nonono, It's not your fault. I just noticed a strange trend, is all.

I mean, I get it, Kyuubey's the main villain and all. It's just that it seems like this conversation keeps happening in one format or another.
 
The idea of Madokami being anything like YHVH is extremely funny to me. Thinking about it leads me to think Madoka would probably go Neutral, as opposed to Chaos or Law.
 
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