Thank you, Kai. Your assessment also suggests an answer to one of the biggest Homura bonehead move in PMMM that I never understood. Where she tells Kyubey about the previous timeline, leading to the events of the rebellion movie.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Wraith Arc kind of confirmed that it wasn't Homura telling Kyubey about Madoka that directly led to the events of Rebellion?

Wasn't it Kyubey holding onto a shard of Homura's shield, allowing him to remember the events of the previous timeline, and specifically see the Law of Cycles in action that caused Bunnycat Mephisto to set his plan in motion?

Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Wraith Arc kind of confirmed that it wasn't Homura telling Kyubey about Madoka that directly led to the events of Rebellion?

Wasn't it Kyubey holding onto a shard of Homura's shield, allowing him to remember the events of the previous timeline, and specifically see the Law of Cycles in action that caused Bunnycat Mephisto to set his plan in motion?

Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
My understanding of what happened in the Wraith Arc is admittedly not great, so you could be right.

That said, Homura was still confiding in Kyubey at the end of the main series, treating him as a confidant. Whether her doing so is responsible for Kyubey running his experiment is a little beside the point. The point is she didn't recognize, even after everything she'd been through, that Kyubey was not a trustworthy individual. That's why she let him wander in to her apartment to say his peace to Kyoko, which ultimately got Kyoko killed. That's why she believed him instantly when he dropped the potentialbomb instead of questioning whether there might be more context he was leaving out for his own reasons.

A big incident as far as I'm concerned for PMAS is the Charlotte incident from the main series. Homura wasn't around to see it, but Kyubey decieved Madoka and Sayaka about his telepathic range in order to try and pressure them into a contract when they found Charlotte's grief seed when they were at the hospital away from Mami. It may be that in the canon there was such a range limit, but we know that for PMAS there isn't one. Firn has confirmed that was an example of Kyubey being deceptive.

We also have, from canon, Sayaka directly and explicitly asking Kyubey what happens when their soul gems go all the way dark and Kyubey tells her that she won't be able to use her magic as she'd like. So his "you never asked" line is bullshit from start to finish. And again, Homura wasn't there to see that conversation.
 
something tells me i am going to be writing small individual posts for all of tomorrow lmao

there are all these other pieces laying around that got left out of what i've put up and i probably need to post every last one of them >_>

like just as an example, i think at some point i said the words "Nobody taught Homura how to learn" to somebody.

What I meant by that was this:

I have this sinking feeling that those bastards at the orphanage told her "because" whenever she asked "why" and that that has massively contributed to, for instance, her willingness to accept explanations like "I can't hurt Walpurgisnacht because I can't hurt Walpurgisnacht" instead of continuing to question and question and eventually perhaps dig up real answers.
 
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did i mention how pissed off at that orphanage i am

because it's basically responsible for everything bad ever
We could probably still hunt those people down and make our displeasure known to them using the horrific supernatural powers we made a bargain with a demon to acquire at the cost of our soul. Something to look forward to after Walpurgisnacht.
 
We could probably still hunt those people down and make our displeasure known to them using the horrific supernatural powers we made a bargain with a demon to acquire at the cost of our soul. Something to look forward to after Walpurgisnacht.

I genuinely want to raze that place and replace it with something better in some epilogue
 
Been there, done that being mad at a friend's mother. Every time I ended up explaining some variation on "No, such-and-such isn't normal, and it definitely wasn't your fault that she did it."
We could probably still hunt those people down and make our displeasure known to them using the horrific supernatural powers we made a bargain with a demon to acquire at the cost of our soul. Something to look forward to after Walpurgisnacht.
The first intervention is to stop the harm. Gloating about how Homura selling her soul worked out OK for her in the end is for later.
 
But, well. Homura made a wish that she thought would grant her the agency to not be helpless to do anything but watch the light of her life go to her death. Ending up believing that not only does she not have that agency post-wish, but that she isn't capable of obtaining that agency and has actively made things worse... And that this other person, Sabrina, exists and is obviously capable of that exact agency and doesn't seem to need her help to accomplish it... I mean, god, that's just horrific.
I'm not sure this would be a great way to do it, but it would be funny if we could just assign a reading list and hold a book club to fix everything. Like a grounding in philosophy: Platonism, stoicism, utilitarianism (compare J.S. Mill to Kyuubey), and existentialism (thinking of The Myth of Sisyphus by Camus and the concept of the eternal recurrence in Nietzsche). Fictional interpretations on how to handle first contact with extremely alien civilizations (not super sure of great examples here, maybe Stanisław Lem). Socializing (like How to Make Friends and Influence People or Getting To Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In. The latter talks a fair bit about bad faith negotiation too.). Creative uses of powers (source books for World of Darkness and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, maybe). Tactics, strategy, and politics (The Art of War and The Prince are classics here, maybe stuff on how propaganda works). Might be fun to go over The Nutcracker with an eye toward existentialism.
 
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but it would be funny if we could just assign a reading list

No, no joke. This is going to be part of our approach to this. Maybe not with a OOC-defined list, and I mislike many of your initial suggestions, but some form of setting her to reading most certainly.

It makes far too much sense. She is desperate for understanding and knowledge. The best thing we can possibly do for her is to teach her how to go about acquiring those things herself.

At minimum I'm planning to enable her adding several hours to her day with timestop. Beyond that? She spends eight hours a day at a school where she's not learning anything. Might as well repurpose those, whether via reading or telepathy.

We should start simpler than you're proposing, though. Scientific Method and a grounding in social skills need to come first. Then we need to focus on stuff related to magic, because that's far and away the most applicable since-- well, suffice to say, once we make clear to Homura what the benefits of sleep particularly are, I am strongly inclined to hint to her that if she wants to just fucking run with becoming better at magic, we'd pack her bentos on the daily and she can just expend all the magic she wants via clear seed.

...

Just, she's been shackled from usefully improving herself for so long. Strike the cuffs from her hands! If she wishes to become greater, we shall not continue to allow it to be denied to her.
 
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At minimum I'm planning to enable her adding several hours to her day with timestop. Beyond that? She spends eight hours a day at a school where she's not learning anything. Might as well repurpose those, whether via reading or telepathy.
That hadn't occurred to me. Yeah, poor Mom spends like a quarter of her time sitting through lectures that she could recite from memory. Reclaiming that lost time has got to be a high priority.
 
That hadn't occurred to me. Yeah, poor Mom spends like a quarter of her time sitting through lectures that she could recite from memory. Reclaiming that lost time has got to be a high priority.

And so much can be done with it. Obviously she has full internet access pretty much every minute that she's there, but even beyond that...

There is, for instance, very little Mami would enjoy more than teaching Homura more about the world via telepathy -- and let's make no mistake, with Homura essentially extending complete trust to Mami by sharing her nature as a time traveller with her, I fully intend to include Mami in every step we take on this. There is no reason Homura can't be asking Mami and -- hell, Sayaka, Madoka, Hitomi -- questions intermittently via telepathy.

It is a school. Let her learn there.
 
Maybe not with a OOC-defined list, and I mislike many of your initial suggestions, but some form of setting her to reading most certainly.
I just realized that I never mentioned the funny way it originally occurred to me: we just hand her a reading list, she goes to a library and reads them all in timestop, and now all Homura's problems are solved forever, instantly.

I probably should have gone for specific skills Homura could use, where I was vaguely thinking about how we could make our approach and long-term goals comprehensible to Homura, so that she could confidently ask herself, "What would Sabrina do?"

Just to fire off some skills that I think she could use:
  • Being understood and friendly with good faith actors
  • Recognizing and, if feasible, negotiating with bad faith actors
  • Dealing with her unhealthy relationship with her conception of her purpose so as to contextualize her struggle as useful, even if she gets potentialbombed
  • Finding and setting long term goals
  • Understanding Kyuubey
  • Coping with failure and stress
  • Having a healthy romantic relationship
  • Maintaining healthy business relationships
  • Making and keeping friends
  • Leading a team
  • Forming hypotheses about the world and testing them
  • Learning how to learn
And I was definitely thinking something reading oriented because I wanted to be relatively hands off in this, partially for the selfish meta reason that this quest is slow enough. But I think that learning at her own pace would help with the "learning how to learn" skill.
 
I'm gonna be honest dude, I literally wrote that because the last thing we want is Sabrina trying to be Homura's mom, not for any other reason.

But why not?! If she refuses to be our mother, that frankly leaves us only with one choice: to be her mother instead!

so much potential for hilarity and memes lost irrevocably just because you refuse to accept simple facts, Kaizuki!:mad:
 
Incidentally, a thought for the day: if Feathers turns out to be a manifestation of UKG, the ultimate amalgamation of all Witches, it means that Feathers was literally the friends we made along the way.
 
"Akemi Homura wants to stop being helpless."

Yeah, this sort of thing, more as a nameless need to empower than a fully built out theory, is kinda why I was wanting to work on equipping Homura for the future, rather than just helping her in the here and now. She basically all but commented to the effect already. "This all works, for you."

As far as "even suggesting" to Homura that she could have done it herself, I've very much wanted to do that, but historically the thread has been hostile towardsthe low-hanging fruit there, of talking about the Homuras of other timelines, or even that our knowledge extends outside the loops at all.

On a specific...

The potentialbomb "causes [Homura] to despair in truth." The despair comes because she thinks herself good-for-nothing and sees no way whatsoever to improve herself into someone who isn't good-for-nothing, so having a negative impact on the situation makes her think, in canon, that she should just fucking die -- she isn't someone capable of saving Madoka and cannot ever become someone capable of saving Madoka. There are potentially extensions on this -- things like Homura coming to believe she can't be sure she won't accidentally fuck over all the good stuff Sabrina's caused this loop 'cuz she hasn't got the ability to correctly judge the probable consequences of her actions and oops she's responsible for Madoka's potential already and she's been so sure that some of the things 'Brina wanted were bad ideas and they always turned out okay or even good... Like, I could see that happening and, I mean, we're talking about imminent suicide in that scenario, which Sabrina can "pull her back from the brink" of by telling her that 'Brina needs her.

But, well. Homura made a wish that she thought would grant her the agency to not be helpless to do anything but watch the light of her life go to her death. Ending up believing that not only does she not have that agency post-wish, but that she isn't capable of obtaining that agency and has actively made things worse... And that this other person, Sabrina, exists and is obviously capable of that exact agency and doesn't seem to need her help to accomplish it... I mean, god, that's just horrific.

Point of contention here: There's a significant possibility that the potentialbomb in canon and the potentialbomb in PMAS are not the same thing.

"As I was about to say, Sabrina - the 'how' is simple," Oriko says. "She despairs in truth, because it means that for every gain she's made, the obstacles simply become more insurmountable. Walpurgisnacht alone is no longer her only foe to contend with, let alone the Incubator's increased machinations."

Perhaps the potentialbomb and its effects seems might be "Walpurgisnacht is not her only foe" but that seems like it would fall under "the incubator's increased machinations" particularly with Feathers' existence. Especially so given our recent discovery that something is wrong with Homura's loops and Feathers as the most likely candidate for mucking with time, given that it has already done so.

To a certain extent this tracks with the analysis of helpless being Homura's main problem, but I suspect there's a contributing factor: Homura's guilt. It's a major theme, and Homura has talked about the things she's done, how she things she's hurt Madoka, just as often as shown frustration over her powerlessness.

Which is why I suspect an "Everything can be fixed" Kriemhild Gretchen or Homucifer/Homulilly are more likely candidates for Feathers than Dedolere. As either one would be not only a seemingly insurmountable threat, but also a monument to Homura's sins.
 
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Which is why I suspect an "Everything can be fixed" Kriemhild Gretchen or Homucifer/Homulilly are more likely candidates for Feathers than Dedolere. As either one would be not only a seemingly insurmountable threat, but also a monument to Homura's sins.

I dunno, that seems way too dramatic and overblown. Monument of sins, eh.

My personal theory about Feathers being a combo powers platter entity created by Sayaka who fucked up when she sent a sentient flock of birds to the past in order to make herself Contract has not been conclusively disproven yet.
 
"Akemi Homura wants to stop being helpless."

Yeah, this sort of thing, more as a nameless need to empower than a fully built out theory, is kinda why I was wanting to work on equipping Homura for the future, rather than just helping her in the here and now. She basically all but commented to the effect already. "This all works, for you."

As far as "even suggesting" to Homura that she could have done it herself, I've very much wanted to do that, but historically the thread has been hostile towardsthe low-hanging fruit there, of talking about the Homuras of other timelines, or even that our knowledge extends outside the loops at all.

On a specific...



Point of contention here: There's a significant possibility that the potentialbomb in canon and the potentialbomb in PMAS are not the same thing.



Perhaps the potentialbomb and its effects seems might be "Walpurgisnacht is not her only foe" but that seems like it would fall under "the incubator's increased machinations" particularly with Feathers' existence. Especially so given our recent discovery that something is wrong with Homura's loops and Feathers as the most likely candidate for mucking with time, given that it has already done so.

To a certain extent this tracks with the analysis of helpless being Homura's main problem, but I suspect there's a contributing factor: Homura's guilt. It's a major theme, and Homura has talked about the things she's done, how she things she's hurt Madoka, just as often as shown frustration over her powerlessness.

Which is why I suspect an "Everything can be fixed" Kriemhild Gretchen or Homucifer/Homulilly are more likely candidates for Feathers than Dedolere. As either one would be not only a seemingly insurmountable threat, but also a monument to Homura's sins.

Ugh. That "potentialbomb in canon" line was unclear. The intended meaning was "the potentialbomb in PMAS, when delivered during the canon loops, before the PMAS loop"

I can't comment on the nature of the potentialbomb in canon canon. In canon we lack a lot of the basis I've pointed to as evidence for why this theory is right.

Is this theory invalidated by that, no... But it goes from "basically proven fact" to "unproven hypothesis" if you move from pmas to canon.

historically the thread has been hostile towardsthe low-hanging fruit there, of talking about the Homuras of other timelines, or even that our knowledge extends outside the loops at all.

There are damn good reasons for that that I stand by to this day. To hell with that shit.

Re: wanting to equip her for the future: I swear I've said this but, just, this theory clicks into every god damn piece on the entire board so fucking well. It makes sense with the person we have observed Homura to be.
 
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