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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Ugolino said:
Regardless, Sendai isn't the group we need to sell on this. We have them over a barrel.
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I wouldn't say that.
We may have gotten them out of a bad situation, but we know they would have managed to get out alone.
Akiko also displays a lot of confidence for someone we have over the barrel and even then Sakura is kind of a loose cannon even if she wants to look good in front of Rin.
At the moment we are in a game of wits where each side is trying to gather as much information as they can from the other side without revealing any crucial bit themselves.
Sakura's scowl deepens, too, and her grip tightens on her katana as she stares down Kirika. The black haired girl gives as good as she gets, an unblinking, citrine orange glare and a feral smirk displaying far too many teeth.
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It's more like a standoff.
 
Cavalier said:
What's the justification, even?

They won't believe it? Hello, fucking magic. And Kyubey probably would be willing to confirm the power exists if asked.

They'll try to seize Oriko for their own ends? Then why the fuck are we helping them in the first place, if they're that unprincipled? Something we might be better able to judge, incidentally, if we had used all our available sources of information instead of drawing their attention to Mitakihara and then running off straight into the fire to preempt that.

Also Oriko can see any attempts to coerce her coming, and it's not like we have to hand out her name or location.
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There's no need for that tone. Firn told us to knock it off. Listen to the GM or gtfo.
 
Cavalier said:
And again, there is simply no reason not to let them know. "We don't have to, because they're fucked without our help" is not a reason. Among other things, they may not believe their chances are so bad, or that escalation is inevitable, or even that "victory" wouldn't be worth the costs they think it would impose. And if they walk away, the chances of preventing escalation of the war are significantly lower.
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'If they walk away' isn't on the cards. We know they've done things that, had they happened on our turf, would've resulted in them being kicked out so hard they'd bounce repeatedly. We can tell if they're trying to make a break for it. We have them heavily outgunned, right here and now. Either we convince them to do as we say, or they convince us to join their side ('hahaha nope' unlikely), or we gift-wrap them for the other side (and maybe, if we're feeling charitable, plead for their lives).
 
I don't think you quite understand the mindset of the Sendai girls, Cavalier. The Sendai group are ruthlessly mercenary. They are basically all the worst aspects of Kyouko, turned up to 11. If we tell them that we have a precog in Mitakihara, do you seriously think they won't make an effort to go hunt her down? Sure, we won't tell them her location, and Oriko would see them coming, but it's still going to cause more trouble for her. As if she needs more reason to regret working with us.
 
Ugolino said:
We are saving them unless they turn out to be literally meguca Hitler so "they'd go after Oriko" isn't a reason not to.
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I'm also kind of at a loss as to why we're not revealing the precognition (if not the source). Telling them 'you're going to die' if you pursue this war is probably a rather good reason to hesitate and listen to us.
 
We can tell them that our grief powers include sensing future grief and that their actions are going to bring a LOT of it which we're trying to prevent.
 
Cavalier said:
And again, there is simply no reason not to let them know. "We don't have to, because they're fucked without our help" is not a reason.
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First things first, these kind of large post makes my phone suffer. :\

Okay. So, I'll start saying that you're right, this information is valid and credible and a power that is useful for any MG who goes into war, a I give you credit fot that.

So I give you another reason of why we should not reveal the precog: They're mercs. They know no other sides but theirs only.

You realize this, right?

Oriko at her current state is defendless, and if we want to maintaing Mitakihara (the city) out of all of this, we simply cannot give this as a reason. This is, actually, inviting a disaster waiting to happen.

They won't back off. They will use this against us. This is something we cannot control.

And even that is not a wise option.

You also know their IC-mindset, right? They recognices a game-breaker like us when they see it, and having us against them at worst, if not indirectly providing our aid to them at best, is foolish and a poor desicion making based in both the judgement and criteria showed so far.

Also, they've showed they can keep their head cool (well, Sakura is the exception here but she can be called out by her groupmates) so also that's a plus.

PD: Partially ninja'd by CannonGerbil. Damn you. Well, at least you gave some more detailed info so I let you pass. THIS TIME.
 
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Tam Lin said:
We can tell them that our grief powers include sensing future grief and that their actions are going to bring a LOT of it which we're trying to prevent.
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That's a terrible lie, and also some of the options about precog are more talking about loads of them dying and or witching as well as civ casualties + city damage.

Could you please explain how "Sense future grief and things are going to make a lot of it" Equates to that level of detail in our knowledge of the actions.
 
Sightedjt said:
That's a terrible lie, and also some of the options about precog are more talking about loads of them dying and or witching as well as civ casualties + city damage.

Could you please explain how "Sense future grief and things are going to make a lot of it" Equates to that level of detail in our knowledge of the actions.
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*Shrugs*

Time Traveller? Undo Skill?
 
Tam Lin said:
*Shrugs*

Time Traveller? Undo Skill?
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We have told them what our power is and you are posting things that directly contradict things that we have told them and they have seen happening.

Please, could you try a bit less of the "loads of one line ideas with seemingly no thought behind them" approach and a bit more of the "Fewer ideas but better quality ones with thoughts and reasonings shown" Because the latter sorts of ideas just give us more things to work with on thinking about if they can work or not so we can make better plans
 
Tam Lin, I appreciate what you are trying to do, but perhaps it would be best if you would spend more time thinking through your ideas before posting them for the world to see. You have some good ideas, but the vast majority of your posts appear to be you just typing up any vaguely coherent thought that pop into your head.
 
Revealing the existance of precognition is a big no. In fact, revealing sources of information in general is usually something one doesn't want to do, unless it's strictly necessary. Information is very much power, and revealed sources are very much a weakness.

Revealing precognition may be useful for the next hours, days, maybe even years, but sharing such an important piece of information invites disaster in the long run. Repeatedly. We're already going to have to deal with many groups and individuals who're gonna see Sabrina as a source of power, an object to be used and hoarded. We really don't need make a list of our hax users and pass it around.

Even if we could trust the Sendai girls to keep our secrets and not try to act against us in the future, which we can't, power creates fear. Power can be equated to danger very easily. There's about no chance that this mercenary group of girls are gonna trust us if they know that we can know everything they do.
Guilop said:
We may have gotten them out of a bad situation, but we know they would have managed to get out alone.
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We know that. They don't. Actually, since we disrupted Oriko's precog by telepathy-ing the Sendai girls, we're not actually sure they would have made it. What we all know is that we did just help get Akiko's butt out of the fire.
 
I am exasperated at all of this. The thread got pissed at Oriko refusing to explain anything or share information. She was an annoying, cryptic, arrogant bitch who expected compliance without questioning from others and reserved the right to act unilaterally without regard for anyone's preferences because she literally knew best. In the end, rather than reason her out and try to gain her loyalty that way, Sabrina threatened her into compliance by playing on her greatest fear.

And all of that could have been avoided if Oriko had just been open about what she was trying to do and why.

But in the end I guess that worked out just fine. She hasn't betrayed Sabrina yet, though she also knows that Sabrina's fumbling around is still probably the best chance she has to get what she wants, which is keeping Madoka from contracting and defeating Walpurgisnacht.

Unfortunately this seems to have everyone believe we can continue to treat everyone else in the same way. Gain compliance by threats, or putting them "over a barrel," or by grudgingly dispensing context-less and unsupported claims by way of explanation, all the while being assured the other side will do what we want because we know best. When was the last time she even asked anyone else what the best course of action was, nevermind listened to them? When was the last time Sabrina actually convinced anyone to follow her lead, rather than dragged them around because she was going to do whatever regardless?

The argument that the Sendai Group are all insane mercenaries is an argument against any further help to them. And they have to be insane, because precognition means Oriko will see them coming if they try to go after her. And she is not defenseless; the entire Mitikihara group is made up of Magical Girls with completely broken powersets and/or veteran levels of experience fighting other Magical Girls. "If you go after Oriko, she will see it, and we will ambush and kill you" is a pretty effective defense. If they can't figure that out on their own some broad hinting and implications should be sufficient to let them work it out. The risk is minimal at best and it's too late to back out of trying to save the Sendai Group anyway.

The argument that they'll fall in line because they have to assumes they will act in a way Sabrina wants them to simply because Sabrina wants them to. We have no intention of using force to make them do so, and any vote would fail; not least because we'd be pretty likely to wind up killing someone in the attempt. Their evaluation of their chances may be very different from ours, and the cryptic and arrogant air of Sabrina's interventions may encourage them to let their emotions win and walk away because they are getting pissed off with her. And even if they do fall in line, it's a grudging acceptance of what Sabrina wants right now, with no real understanding of the bigger picture. Even if they mean to comply they can very well take counterproductive actions because they don't actually know what is going on or why.

Whereas if they are convinced of their own free will to cooperate, they will not be passive-aggressive in their compliance or even try to break away or sabotage Sabrina later on. If they know the stakes that will get through their own anger at being ambushed by the Ishinomaki alliance and exasperation with Sabrina. They can take intelligent action to further shared goals rather than flail about trying to guess what the hell Sabrina is on about. The general "but if you guys fight someone will get hurt" lacks the impact of "my precog has seen nine Meguca die," and of course a bigger threat (Walpurgisnacht) is something to rally the other groups around confronting as a means to get them to let go of their existing grudges.
 
Like I said. *Shrugs*

I think everyone's overthinking things a bit, but I guess you guys are trying to go for PERFECT END, or something. At some point, all the hiding of information from other characters gets too convoluted, tbh.

I'm only suggesting lies because everyone seems to be up for lying, but if someone's going to make a suggestion that says they're going to go for telling the truth, then I'd gladly support that one.

Honestly, I think this is just going to be one of those cases where lack of communication and a lack of information is going to bite us in the ass.
 
Cavalier said:
The argument that the Sendai Group are all insane mercenaries is an argument against any further help to them. And they have to be insane, because precognition means Oriko will see them coming if they try to go after her. And she is not defenseless; the entire Mitikihara group is made up of Magical Girls with completely broken powersets and/or veteran levels of experience fighting other Magical Girls. "If you go after Oriko, she will see it, and we will ambush and kill you" is a pretty effective defense. If they can't figure that out on their own some broad hinting and implications should be sufficient to let them work it out. The risk is minimal at best and it's too late to back out of trying to save the Sendai Group anyway.
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The risk of them picking a fight with the Ishinomaki girls over territory is pretty high for the rewards they would have gotten. They still went and did it anyway. Your analysis would work if the Sendai girls are perfectly rational actors, but we know, both from experience and their past actions, that they are not. Furthermore, Oriko is a precog. Are you seriously suggesting that they will just accept that a precog is living in Mitakihara and just leave her be without attempting to get her over to their side?
 
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Cannongerbil said:
The risk of them picking a fight with the Ishinomaki girls over territory is pretty high for the rewards they would have gotten. They still went and did it anyway. Your analysis would work if the Sendai girls are perfectly rational actors, but we know, both from experience and their past actions, that they are not. Furthermore, Oriko is a precog. Are you seriously suggesting that they will just accept that a precog is living in Mitakihara and just leave her be without attempting to get her over to their side?
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Then vote to have Homura timestop and then put them down like rabid dogs, if you think that's how they are going to act.
 
There's also a significant difference between what Oriko did (being cryptic as fuck, the "This was necessary" IED, etc.) to what we're doing/planning to do (here's some straight-up info, but no, I am not revealing my sources).

Another issue with revealing our precog is, well, they have a teleporter. It's not unlikely that they'll ask to see Oriko to verify her precog powers. That happens, they got her location and can strike at her anytime, from anywhere. Her only defense? Homura.

We're depending on Homura... to defend Oriko. Think about that.
 
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Cavalier said:
Then vote to have Homura timestop and then put them down like rabid dogs, if you think that's how they are going to act.
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There's a vast gulf between "Murder on sight" and "Trust them like a brother." As of this point, we don't trust them enough to reveal every little secret we have, but we like them enough, or at least, we don't think they have done anything deserving of a bullet to the soul gem. Yet.
 
"Your conflict is going to spiral out of control and kill a lot of people" is not information, it is a claim. To make it information you need to have some assurance that the claim will actually come to pass.
 
defenestrator said:
There's also a significant difference between what Oriko did (being cryptic as fuck, the "This was necessary" IED, etc.) to what we're doing/planning to do (here's some straight-up info, but no, I am not revealing my sources).

Another issue with revealing our precog is, well, they have a teleporter. It's not unlikely that they'll ask to see Oriko to verify her precog powers. That happens, they got her location and can strike at her anytime, from anywhere. Her only defense? Homura.

We're depending on Homura... to defend Oriko. Think about that.
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Doesn't their teleporter have to know where she's teleporting to? Like, it can't just be "Teleport me to [x thing]".
 
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