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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Muramasa said:
I think we're getting too lost on the technical details. As long as we can get some kind of arrangement where cleanse offers and clear seeds are permissable in Tokyo, that's good enough for me. We can worry about the nuances later and it doesn't have to be solely decided by us. In fact, it shouldn't be.
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I'll draw your attention to this "detail":
Firnagzen said:
"Do no harm," you say with a nod. "Help those who need help. Be kind."

"Ah!" Madoka says, brightening up into a shy smile. "That's a good principle to live by. But... that might make it difficult."

"Because their entire power structure is at least slightly predicated on being able to exert indirect pressure," Mami says, eyes narrowing a little. "They need to convince people to join, don't they?"
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That "detail" looked to me like our group concluded that we could not give Clear Seeds to anyone in Tokyo as long as the Council existed.
Firnagzen said:
Alright. I misinterpreted the vote somewhat, but I believe that even with that intent - the core discussion still came through, of how it would be possible to get Tokyo to handle it.
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I certainly hope so. Talking to Tokyo would be a waste of time with the above conclusion in place.
blast flame said:
The problem with making a single trustworthy group in charge of policing is that group composition might change over time, more people joining that group because they want the power making the group slowly become composed mainly of more power hungry girls.

Basically I think we also need to set up a watcher for the watchers, some sort of complaint process, a mechanism to move the policing responsibilities to another group - stuff along those lines.
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I think that we have enough resources to watch the watchmen. It was watching everyone else that we can't do.

And, you know, it's not like even a slightly corrupt modern police force would be worse than their current method. Which is, let me remind you, "Twenty angry magical girls show up on your doorstep", even before you consider the possibility that it's all being stabilized by quiet assassinations by the person that nobody knows anything about. That's not policing. That's somewhere between mob rule and a dystopian totalitarian dictatorship.
 
Vebyast said:
I think that we have enough resources to watch the watchmen. It was watching everyone else that we can't do.

And, you know, it's not like even a slightly corrupt modern police force would be worse than their current method. Which is, let me remind you, "Twenty angry magical girls show up on your doorstep", even before you consider the possibility that it's all being stabilized by quiet assassinations by the person that nobody knows anything about. That's not policing. That's somewhere between mob rule and a dystopian totalitarian dictatorship.
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It would definitely be a step up.

But I think it would still be remiss of us as a breaker of corrupt and evil systems not to plan around our own systems becoming corrupt, to try to either prevent it or introduce mechanisms that respond if it does become corrupt. Neither should we plan on always being there, maybe 10 years from now we'll be so busy with international stuff we only visit Tokyo twice every year and sure they make everything look nice and good for those two days we visit but the other 363 days a year...
 
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Vebyast said:
Firnagzen said:
"Do no harm," you say with a nod. "Help those who need help. Be kind."

"Ah!" Madoka says, brightening up into a shy smile. "That's a good principle to live by. But... that might make it difficult."

"Because their entire power structure is at least slightly predicated on being able to exert indirect pressure," Mami says, eyes narrowing a little. "They need to convince people to join, don't they?"
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That "detail" looked to me like our group concluded that we could not give Clear Seeds to anyone in Tokyo as long as the Council existed.
Firnagzen said:
Alright. I misinterpreted the vote somewhat, but I believe that even with that intent - the core discussion still came through, of how it would be possible to get Tokyo to handle it.
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I certainly hope so. Talking to Tokyo would be a waste of time with the above conclusion in place.
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Nnnnno that's not quite how it's meant to read, but it is a conclusion that unless you can get some kind of concession out of them, whether it be a general change of policy or an active policing force, giving them Clear Seeds might simply enable greater harm while allowing the current group in power to grow more powerful. It's conditional, and this vote expanded somewhat on the conditions.
 
blast flame said:
But I think it would still be remiss of us a breaker of corrupt and evil systems not to plan around our own systems becoming corrupt, try to either prevent it or introduce mechanisms that respond if it does become corrupt. Neither should we plan on always being there, maybe 10 years from now we'll be so busy with international stuff we only visit Tokyo twice every year and sure they make everything look nice and good for those two days we visit but the other 363 days a year...
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Planning for ten years from now is insane and not worth our time.

We do not have time to worry about the precise details and long-term planning necessary to write a constitution ourselves.

Mitakihara's civics curriculum is just as advanced as its mathematics and literature curricula; they're doing Model UNs in eighth grade. The Tokyo girls are better at civics than ninety-nine percent of the thread and they're not talking through a 150-word-an-hour tube.

We do not have to deal with this right now. It does not affect any of the decisions we need to make. Worrying about corruption is 100% wasted effort.
Firnagzen said:
Nnnnno that's not quite how it's meant to read, but it is a conclusion that unless you can get some kind of concession out of them, whether it be a general change of policy or an active policing force, giving them Clear Seeds might simply enable greater harm while allowing the current group in power to grow more powerful. It's conditional, and this vote expanded somewhat on the conditions.
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Ah, okay. I... think that that works, then.
 
Vebyast said:
Planning for ten years from now is insane and not worth our time.

We do not have time to worry about the precise details and long-term planning necessary to write a constitution ourselves.

Mitakihara's civics curriculum is just as advanced as its mathematics and literature curricula; they're doing Model UNs in eighth grade. The Tokyo girls are better at civics than ninety-nine percent of the thread and they're not talking through a 150-word-an-hour tube.

We do not have to deal with this right now. It does not affect any of the decisions we need to make. Worrying about corruption is 100% wasted effort.

Ah, okay. I... think that that works, then.
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You know how these things work: we create a system we intend to be some temporary holdover and then it's still operating 80 years from now because it was working "good enough" and people don't like change. We need to responsibly design our systems to function in the long term even if we plan to eventually replace them just in case they end up being the standard for a long time.
 
blast flame said:
You know how these things work: we create a system we intend to be some temporary holdover and then it's still operating 80 years from now because it was working "good enough" and people don't like change. We need to responsibly design our systems to function in the long term even if we plan to eventually replace them just in case they end up being the standard for a long time.
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Perfect is the enemy of good. We do not need to be designing for eighty fucking years in the future. Humanity will not survive for eighty days if waste time on shit like this instead of helping our friends and figuring out how to distribute Clear Seeds so we aren't dealing with people dying in front of us. I understand what happens with "temporary" systems. I am a software engineer, of all disciplines, and I am far too fucking familiar with how much effort it takes to undo "temporary" solutions. I just spent three months dealing with one. My entire team has spent the last year on another. But engineering is about tradeoffs. There is a time for worrying about making everything perfect and a time for actually getting shit done so people stop dying. This kind of fearmongering is not getting any shit done.
 
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Vebyast said:
Perfect is the enemy of good. We do not need to be designing for eighty fucking years in the future. Humanity will not survive for eighty days if waste time on shit like this instead of helping our friends and figuring out how to distribute Clear Seeds so we aren't dealing with people dying in front of us. I understand what happens with "temporary" systems. I am a software engineer, of all disciplines, and I am far too fucking familiar with how much effort it takes to undo "temporary" solutions. I just spent three months dealing with one. My entire team has spent the last year on another. But engineering is about tradeoffs. There is a time for worrying about making everything perfect and a time for actually getting shit done so people stop dying. This kind of fearmongering is not getting any shit done.
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If shit happens and people get oppressed because of our actions Sabrina will never forgive herself.

We have time in the thread, spending a tiny little bit of time to introduce some simple basic anticorruption measures will not mean that we're delayed from distributing clear seeds or helping our friends. We can do both.
 
blast flame said:
If shit happens and people get oppressed because of our actions Sabrina will never forgive herself.

We have time in the thread, spending a tiny little bit of time to introduce some simple basic anticorruption measures will not mean that we're delayed from distributing clear seeds or helping our friends. We can do both.
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We are not the only people working on this. People are not idiots. Your refusal to admit that you are wasting time has wasted more of my time and effort than would have ever been worth spending on this topic in the course of the entire quest. Sabrina will never see people be oppressed as a result of setting up a modern fucking police force because it will never happen in the scope of this quest because this quest will be ending in a matter of weeks and it will take a year to set the fucking thing up. You are like the person that proposes walking around with their soul gem in a hydraulic press just in case we start to witch out. Your fears will never arise because they can be trivially handled much later in the process i.e. sometime other than "hey wouldn't it be cool if". You are raising concerns which are approximately as appropriate to this discussion as the colors of the needles in a car's speedometer are appropriate to a discussion about the economic feasibility of electric vehicles. Your refusal to drop this topic is disruptive and your position is wrong. You need more engineering experience and you need to learn how to make basic project management decisions. Meetings in effective engineering organizations have specific people assigned who have the responsibility of monitoring the topic and agenda and the authority to shut down digressions like this so they do not waste time. Nothing would ever get done without those people. I am doing whatever I can right now to be that person and tell you that this is not a productive use of anyone's time.
 
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Vebyast said:
We are not the only people working on this. People are not idiots. Your refusal to admit that you are wasting time has wasted more of my time and effort than would have ever been worth spending on this topic in the course of the entire quest. Sabrina will never see people be oppressed as a result of setting up a modern fucking police force because it will never happen in the scope of this quest because this quest will be ending in a matter of weeks and it will take a year to set the fucking thing up. You are like the person that proposes walking around with their soul gem in a hydraulic press just in case we start to witch out. Your fears will never arise because they can be trivially handled much later in the process i.e. sometime other than "hey wouldn't it be cool if". You are raising concerns which are approximately as appropriate to this discussion as the colors of the needles in a car's speedometer are appropriate to a discussion about the economic feasibility of electric vehicles. Your refusal to drop this topic is disruptive and your position is wrong. You need more engineering experience and you need to learn how to make basic project management decisions. Meetings in effective engineering organizations have specific people assigned who have the responsibility of monitoring the topic and agenda and the authority to shut down digressions like this so they do not waste time. Nothing would ever get done without those people. I am doing whatever I can right now to be that person and tell you that this is not a productive use of anyone's time.
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Just because this quest may be ending in a few weeks of game time doesn't mean we shouldn't plan for the future. There may be a sequel quest and even if there isn't planning for the future is fun, Sabrina planning to change the world over the course of time is interesting and enjoyable.
 
Vebyast said:
Then we can discuss this in the sequel.
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Why not now? As far as I'm concerned the point of this quest isn't just some strategic challenge to make things look as good as they can be on the morning of May 1st. The point of this quest is, from my perspective, to roleplay Sabrina. For Sabrina to be the best Sabrina she can be. Sabrina does not know her life is a quest, Sabrina is optimistic enough to assume that Walpurgisnacht does not represent the end of her life.

Sabrina does not have a time horizon of only two weeks, that's Homura. For Sabrina she has a wide open life ahead of her that she's just starting to live. That means planning for the future now. And again as far as I'm concerned this sort of planning stuff is part of the fun.
 
Vebyast said:
I just gave you literally an entire page of reasons why not.
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And in the rest of my post that you cut out I gave you my reasons for why I didn't agree with that.

Geez, it's a bit like talking to a speedrunner who can't understand why someone would want to play levels you can skip rather than completing the game in the most time efficient manner.

The fun stuff about a quest like this is from my perspective thinking about what Sabrina should think, feel, plan, react, dream of, be inspired by. Flights of fancy, planning big 'impossible' dreams. To interact with the people around her like they were actual people who will have long lives rather than assuming they'll stop existing the same second the quest does. It's not about efficiency, it's about love and compassion and the people.

To me a strategic Mitakihara group simulation where we number crunch everything for maximal efficiency without actually treating everyone, including Sabrina, as people is what sounds like the waste of time.
 
again, all about the people and such
nobody is talking about eighty years in the future. what we are saying is that we shouldn't create a duct tape and dreams solution, its sort of like the US constitution and such
when you make something that you intend to not last very long and its still around three hundred years later
I've been thinking about how we could possibly create a police force that truly serves the best interest of the public and isn't subject to the horrific forms of corruption that modern police are
I think I have something, or at least a starting off point
the police should be a sort of rotating group of members of the public, who can be recalled and replaced by other members of the public if they feel the police aren't serving the best interest of the public. that way the police aren't treated as a sort of privileged group that is somehow above the public they serve, because the public and the police is one and the same.
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the other way to make it smoother is something we really are already doing, eliminating the base causes of violence and criminal activities, I'm talking lack of mental health support, not having what you need to live and support yourself, and so on, once we manage to take care of those things, we will find that territory disputes, infighting, and the general cruelty meguca inflict on each other to plumbet. won't have people like kyouko who resort to immoral means to get enough grief seeds once shortages aren't really a problem anymore. and ya won't get people like hijiri, anri, or the old boss of sendai (can't remember her name) if people have professionals that they can talk to about their problems and receive grief counseling and such
after all the vast majority of people aren't cruel or violent by nature, they act that way due to external forces or because they feel they have to. its true in the real world and its true here
 
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soulsguardian said:
again, all about the people and such
nobody is talking about eighty years in the future. what we are saying is that we shouldn't create a duct tape and dreams solution, its sort of like the US constitution and such
when you make something that you intend to not last very long and its still around three hundred years later
I've been thinking about how we could possibly create a police force that truly serves the best interest of the public and isn't subject to the horrific forms of corruption that modern police are
I think I have something, or at least a starting off point
the police should be a sort of rotating group of members of the public, who can be recalled and replaced by other members of the public if they feel the police aren't serving the best interest of the public. that way the police aren't treated as a sort of privileged group that is somehow above the public they serve, because the public and the police is one and the same.
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The question isn't about how to go around creating the police except in the broadest terms possible. The question is, if the Quest will be over in a few weeks, do we even need to concern ourselves with particulars and not, for example, leave them for Brinapilot to sort out in the epilogue? At least that's Vebyast's position as I understand.

On this question, I withhold my opinion. ( I've found out time and again that I'm rather excitable, and I don't really want to discuss any but the most egregious questions. )

So I'm just here to explain what the things you're arguing about are. If you think that creating a high concept of what Meguca Police needs to be in the future is absolutely paramount:
Create votes, convince people to join in, mind the time, please try and make it as concise and understandable as possible, things like that.
 
honesty?
I want to talk about it. cause I think its fun, don't really need a reason beyond that. I like thinking about it and so I will, regardless of if it has any impact or if it ever even comes up IC
and even if the quest stops running in a few weeks of in universe time, we still want to leave everyone in a good place, we want the future to be a good place, one that's worth living in, I don't want to take shortcuts to an easy way out, I wanna do things the way that saves the world
aim for the moon and if you miss you'll still be a star
 
Firnagzen said:
Nothing is more permanent than a temporary fix.​
Don't mind me, I'm shitposting. :V
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Wow. It's as if he's watching my workplace from just over my shoulder. Props.


No time for a large reply, the best portion:
We can, and should determine what our preferred ideal outcomes and means are.

In this case, we are a few steps away from that. Tokyo is not at the action stage. We are at the perception stage.

Can we see the truth? Do we have a real understanding of what we see?
I want us to plan further on how to find out the intent and history of what this groups is. Just as we planned defense in case they are actively hostile, we must plan for the possibility of active concealment.
That is our actual unmet need. Not a "commitment to do" any remediation, yet.
 
Raiseth said:
The question is, if the Quest will be over in a few weeks, do we even need to concern ourselves with particulars and not, for example, leave them for Brinapilot to sort out in the epilogue? At least that's Vebyast's position as I understand.
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That still requires us to talk about it while we can still influence Brinapilot, though, because Vebyast's intent to copy modern policing structures and soulsguardian's more anarchist proposals show a vast difference in goals that will affect Sabrina's actions even in the next couple weeks. Do we want to be Magical Girl Thomas Jefferson or Magical Girl Emma Goldman?
 
Torgamous said:
That still requires us to talk about it while we can still influence Brinapilot, though, because Vebyast's intent to copy modern policing structures and soulsguardian's more anarchist proposals show a vast difference in goals that will affect Sabrina's actions even in the next couple weeks. Do we want to be Magical Girl Thomas Jefferson or Magical Girl Emma Goldman?
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well we've already shown ourself to be a magical anarchist/socialist/communist/lenenist, might as well go all the way :V

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and frankly, the reason I don't want a copy past of modern day police structures is because frankly? acab, its extremely prone to corruption and is a pretty shit system overall, I'm not exactly tied strongly to my own suggestion, I'm simply saying that because we are building a meguca government from the ground up we shouldn't be confined by the flaws and failings of the real world structures we base them on
 
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Torgamous said:
That still requires us to talk about it while we can still influence Brinapilot, though, because Vebyast's intent to copy modern policing structures and soulsguardian's more anarchist proposals show a vast difference in goals that will affect Sabrina's actions even in the next couple weeks. Do we want to be Magical Girl Thomas Jefferson or Magical Girl Emma Goldman?
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What we need to do is to suddenly do a one-eighty and go Magical Girl Hitler on them.

I mean, sure, we're not a middle aged businessman reincarnated into this world in a woman's body by a capricious entity.... or are we? o_O
 
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