- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hello, fresh meat! Welcome to hell PMAS!
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- Earth, probably.
- Pronouns
- None/Any
Fresh meat!
- Location
- Somewhere up the tree
that's a good attitude to have
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
*rewatches and -reads canon material, has a number of thoughts as a result*
Hunh...
More angeru/metaknowledge stuff.
Yeah, Sayaka never got a music player...
But Kyousuke never threw away his violin. In the anime he ordered the people close to him to throw it away but here? It was right there in the room, in a case, once his hand finished healing.
It could easily be an artifact of Sayaka never getting a music player, or the slow healing gave him a chance to ask for it back but it's... interesting.
I wonder if its worth asking what happened there.
--------------
I do wonder whether anything good would come of telling Sayaka Kyousuke may see her as something closer to a sister than a friend. I imagine it would probably end the possibility of a relationship between them, but if things have already fallen apart, it could bring them back together.
--------------
So... watched the anime again, looked at the timeline, and I realized that Kyousuke returns to school almost exactly a week after his hand is healed. Though the timeline is accelerated by the sheer degree to which he's healed.
And I looked at the timeline, and its been just a little over a week since we finished healing his hand.
[q] Have an incredibly important realization: You don't know when Kyousuke is going to be released from the hospital, but he'll probably want to eat with the rest of you. Last you met him, he was in a wheelchair. Is he going to have trouble to getting up to the roof for lunch?
-----------------------
Given Madoka's reactions to magical girls fighting throughout the series and in PMAS, I wonder if Madoka's big problem with being a magical girl isn't the witchbomb or the lichbomb or anything: Its the idea that magical girls have to fight, and especially having to fight each other, that she had to kill one of her best friends to save another.
------------------------
And another parallel to note PMKM and PMAS:
So it turns out that Hildegard may not be the instance first of a witch "biting" someone in materials canon to PMAS.
Something similar also happens in PMKM with Kazumi and Anri: As Anri witches out, Kazumi gets flashbacks of her memories, and the experience is painful enough for her to scream, much as we do when trying to affect witches and familiars. A little after that she tries to turn Anri's witch human again, to limited success.
The order of events is reversed, but it does seem remarkably similar to our own experiments with Hildegard.
The fact that they're both heart shaped witches is just kind of icing on the cake.
Hunh...
More angeru/metaknowledge stuff.
Yeah, Sayaka never got a music player...
But Kyousuke never threw away his violin. In the anime he ordered the people close to him to throw it away but here? It was right there in the room, in a case, once his hand finished healing.
It could easily be an artifact of Sayaka never getting a music player, or the slow healing gave him a chance to ask for it back but it's... interesting.
I wonder if its worth asking what happened there.
--------------
I do wonder whether anything good would come of telling Sayaka Kyousuke may see her as something closer to a sister than a friend. I imagine it would probably end the possibility of a relationship between them, but if things have already fallen apart, it could bring them back together.
--------------
So... watched the anime again, looked at the timeline, and I realized that Kyousuke returns to school almost exactly a week after his hand is healed. Though the timeline is accelerated by the sheer degree to which he's healed.
And I looked at the timeline, and its been just a little over a week since we finished healing his hand.
[q] Have an incredibly important realization: You don't know when Kyousuke is going to be released from the hospital, but he'll probably want to eat with the rest of you. Last you met him, he was in a wheelchair. Is he going to have trouble to getting up to the roof for lunch?
-----------------------
Given Madoka's reactions to magical girls fighting throughout the series and in PMAS, I wonder if Madoka's big problem with being a magical girl isn't the witchbomb or the lichbomb or anything: Its the idea that magical girls have to fight, and especially having to fight each other, that she had to kill one of her best friends to save another.
------------------------
And another parallel to note PMKM and PMAS:
So it turns out that Hildegard may not be the instance first of a witch "biting" someone in materials canon to PMAS.
Something similar also happens in PMKM with Kazumi and Anri: As Anri witches out, Kazumi gets flashbacks of her memories, and the experience is painful enough for her to scream, much as we do when trying to affect witches and familiars. A little after that she tries to turn Anri's witch human again, to limited success.
The order of events is reversed, but it does seem remarkably similar to our own experiments with Hildegard.
The fact that they're both heart shaped witches is just kind of icing on the cake.
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
More directly: We have a way to orient ourselves to the changes. Instead of prescribing blindly, why don't we talk to Sayaka about her relationship feelings sometime? We could even talk to Kyosuke some more.
"If" can be countered well by "conversation." Imagine that we have such an ability!
- Location
- Norway
The ability to properly converse!?! Perish the thought, that's crazy talk
Lord Chungus
God of Nutella
- Location
- The Hague (it’s where all the cool people are)
The hunters must be doing well, given all this fresh meat we're getting
- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
If that is Madoka's issue with the system, her Canon wish... doesn't exactly solve that problem. Yeah, the universe under Madokami is by definition better than the previous iteration of reality, but girls are still tricked into becoming meguca, are still forced to hunt and compete for resources, or else they die.
One interpretation of PMMM is the lesson, "wish for what you really want" (at least according to the internet). Blueberry wishes to heal violin boy, but wants to be his girlfriend. Mami wishes to live, but wants to live with her family and friends. Stuff like that. With this lesson in mind, and canon!Madoka wishing for no more witches, but wanting no more fighting...
Not sure I'm getting my thoughts across well. May or may not be relevant to PMAS. But, it's something to chew on.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Madoka's wish made cooperation possible, due to grief hunting being more amenable to consistently equal division of spoils, and making it so magical girls aren't preying on one another. She was entirely in favor of the idea of being heroes fighting to protect people.
- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
That is a fair point. Wraiths drop multiple grief cubes versus a single grief seed; not to mention, girls can't induce witchouts to turn competition into resources. Oh, and Incubators aren't encouraging meguca to fall into despair, instead focusing their efforts on contracting and collecting grief cubes. I suspect that being meguca is still suffering- they're still child soldiers- but with much less suffering than before.
On a different but related topic, what happens to girls who's soul gems are smashed under the Law of Cycles, or in general? Do they move on to the afterlife, cease to exist, or what?
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Afterlife, as was demonstrated by the tea party scene at the end of Episode 12, with Madoka, Mami, and Kyouko. The Law of Cycles results in magical girls going to the same place regardless of cause of death, unless murder-enslaved by Rionna.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Bestgirl Rionnnnna's Magic probably doesn't even work under the ( old ) new rules.
I mean that the Law of Cycles operates outside of anything resembling causality or linear time-space continuum in her cluster of universes or whatever. Unless Rionna's potential is greater than Madokami's, ( hahahahaha) her Wish becomes retroactively impossible, because it goes against what is essentially an inherent karmic property of the universe, i.e. Megucas go to Heaven after death. It's on the same or greater level of the previous law of the balance of Hope and Despair, which only Madoka managed to break.
Or when Rionna shades Gucas, Madokami appears, waves a finger in Rionna's face and claims the souls regardless.
The only two instances where Madoka's Law of Cycles is subverted are: the Incubators' isolation field, the collective prowess of an intergalactic empire, and Homura's plan to cuddle God ( thanks, soulsguardian, that's really the best description of what the Rebellion is ).
So unless Rionna:
1) has more Potential than Madoka
2) has the Incubators' support on top of her Wish to specifically subvert the Law of Cycles by claiming the souls rightfully belonging to her
3) is a yandere moe 27 years old time-traveler with a Fursona of a fallen angel Lucifer
I don't think Rionna could claim souls in the ( old ) new universe.
... I kinda want to ask Firn now, but I doubt it's worth his while, and we tend to avoid the Rionna's subject anyway, so.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
It's not at all relevant for PMAS, but I'm exceedingly confident that Rionna could claim souls in spite the Law of Cycles. Perhaps even literally in spite of the Law of Cycles.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Madokami: Sayakiel!!! I HAVE A JOB FOR YOU
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Either Miki-el, or, if our theories are right, Sabrina.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
The Law of Cycles is "Magical Girls don't become Witches, ever." There's nothing in there preventing soul-snatching.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
"Megucas don't Witch out" is the form of the law
It's function is "Megucas are claimed by Madokami before they die or Witch out"
Like in the previous iteration
"The sum of Hope and Despair is zero" being the form of the law
And it's function being "When Hope runs out, Meguca falls into Despair"
( because that's balance, according to Urobuchi, but whatevs )
And since the separation of the soul and the Gem constitutes as death for Meguca the same as the separation of the body and the soul for a muggle, I think that I'm warranted to believe that Rionna's powers as shown in PMAS shouldn't work in the Madokami's order, because they go against her explicit wishes on the matter, and she's the goddess of the universe.
Look, I'm just saying, if Meguca dies before she Witches out, that technically conforms to the Madokami's Law, but as Godwinson helpfully stated, Madoka claims the soul in question regardless.
So I don't think it's a stretch to assume that she won't tolerate a soul-snatcher encroaching on her domain.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Tolerate it? No. But being able to do something about it? She's exceedingly limited in what she can do. Messing with stuff outside the bounds of "someone is about to turn into a witch" isn't generally possible for her.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
I'm kinda
Just
I provided my reasoning and everything
About her claiming dead Gucas same as she claims despairing ones
According to you, even, not me
I don't nearly care enough about the argument to continue it, I think.
I mean, I'm probably being unclear somewhere, so eh. Dunno how to explain it clearly, and my two previous tries are unsuccessful, imo, and not much I can do about it.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Ah, I see where the confusion is -- my argument isn't that she claims any dead magical girl, it's that her 'claiming' magical girls who are about to which sends them to the same place they would go if they simply died. Her wish is basically an instant, painless, guaranteed euthanization of any magical girl who would have otherwise witched out.My argument is that she's far more limited in scope, not far more grand in scope.
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Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Ah. Well, okay.
I think she created the afterlife for Magical Girls where nothing existed beforehand, because the mechanics of calling her agents forth from a general afterlife in case of Sayaka and Nagisa become too complicated otherwise. Like "calling back all the dead Sayakas from the previous timelines and smashing them together" levels of complicated.
There is also that Oriko Magica thing, but I am not sure it was real, for a given value of reality.
So in my perception her job as the Law of Cycles was to claim Meguca souls, shepherd them and house them in eternity, and not just euthanize them painlessly.
That's actually, uh, a theological question, I think?
Are there any priests of Madokami who could explain this conundrum to us, please?
- Location
- Somewhere up the tree
if she was as limited as you say then a lot of stuff, like the creation of wraiths, the fact that there is apparently a magical girl afterlife as seen in rebellion, and the existence of the heralds don't make sense
also has anyone else realized the existentialy horrific idea that if madoka makes her canon wish then not only are we looking at the massive and not good fallout from canon
but Sabrina will be retroactively erased from having ever existed. since madoka would never have existed to wish us into existence
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Wraiths were an independent consequence of the universe reacting to the scope of Madoka's wish. The afterlife canonically exists independently of Madoka's wish. Madoka's heralds are simply a way that she can decide to approach her one thing of "prevent magical girls from turning into witches".
- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
On wraiths, they aren't a creation of Madokami to feed her flock; instead, they're a "universal backlash" of sorts- assholes spontaneously spawned by karmic destiny/reality/whatever to make sure that hope and despair continue to balance. Ultimately a futile effort, due to the Law of Cycles being a thing. At least until Mom broke completely.