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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Just woke up, still actually waking up, but this topic is one where I have a prepared thought cached.


About the only value that I can see in giving Homura things to help her in case we fail, is if those things bring her better peace of mind here and now that even if things do go wrong she will be better equipped than she had been.

Information that Homura could never have obtained for herself, for instance. If she can bring grief seeds between loops, a dozen clear seeds so that she can use magic far more heavily for a long time to come.

The best way to do this is to arrange to give her these things without bringing up that we're giving them to her in part so that in case something goes wrong she will be better off. So that way we're addressing that source of anxiety as best we can, without adding to it by bringing up that we might fail.

Do things that help her now and will continue to help her, this is our best option for future-proofing.
 
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Godwinson said:
The best way to do this is to arrange to give her these things without bringing up that we're giving them to her in part so that in case something goes wrong she will be better off. So that way we're addressing that source of anxiety as best we can, without adding to it by bringing up that we might fail.
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The issue with this approach is that, in the event of us actually failing, those things won't bring her peace of mind in the short term 'danger-zone' arriving immediately after she failed the best shot she had in a long time. In my mind, making an active effort to ignore bringing up the topic of failure and ways to progress afterwards will only make things more dangerous in that period.

I think of it this way: Homura has failed every attempt she made for years now. Us not acknowledging the potential for our failure isn't going to make that knowledge go away. By addressing it directly, we give her the assurances that she can carry on without us, and she will be in a better position than prior to our involvement. When we talk to her about it, it will show that we have faith in her and her ability to succeed without any external input.

Leaving it unaddressed could also be bad for her mental state, as it puts pressure on her to think that she must succeed, so that everything doesn't go to waste. I don't believe her immediate response to our failure will be a renewal of faith in herself and a recollection of all the subtle hints and lessons we tried to impart instead of having a frank conversation about it.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Apr 2, 2019 at 8:54 PM, finished with 150870 posts and 11 votes.
  • [X] Cleanse as needed.
    [X] Homura has kettle of boiling water in her inventory, tea would be nice -- tea-timestop?
    -[X] You're going to keep making Homura proper food to put into her inventory, for herself and for others.
    [X] Continue to be thorough and patient. With infinite cleansing, you've given Homura time to process and relax.
    [X] About Homura
    -[X] We're friends and partners in this. Mami is your-- well, yours, but Homura is your best friend.
    --[X] Addressing Homura's self-esteem issues regarding our successes compared to her failures: having an additional perspective helps. To that end, you're going to start fully detailing other things like that to Homura in the future, so that you can get her perspective.
    --[X] Information asymmetries: There are things your metaknowledge covers that Homura doesn't know, and things that Homura knows that you don't, information that can be vital.
    --[X] Improved coordination: Too often you've just improvised, when you know Homura prefers planning. Indicate willingness to plan contingencies. Multitasking, hammerspace (Homura's inventory is hammertime?), timestop, grief(hax) all allow for extensive planning and safe documentation.
    ---[X] Specifically, once you've arranged for the key allies Homura suggested, you'd like to start working on detailed plans for Walpurgisnacht.
    ---[X] Arrange for non-telepathic signal for time-stop in case of tense situations -- you'll could use grief to take hold of her right hand?
    [X] For now though, next topic: Sayaka. It's good news. Complex, but good.
    -[X] Bring up Sayaka figuring out Homura caring specifically about Madoka, as well as her trusting Homura. Explain what you told Sayaka.
    -[X] "Sayaka always is insightful about the weirdest stuff." Bring up her 'past life' joke from Homura's first day at school this/last loop.
    -[X] This is a good thing here and now. Sayaka trusts you and Homura, knows that you know what's going on, and trusts both of you to have Madoka's best interests at heart. More than that, she's willing to help us keep Madoka well out of harms way.
    -[X] Expand upon your explanation of Sayaka from this morning -- most of Sayaka's weaknesses normally become strengths when she decides to trust someone, when the cruelty of the Incubator's system is held at bay.
    --[X] This is likely why Kyuubey keeps magic a secret, deliberately shaping events and his pitch to make it seem like a magical girl anime, because it's encouraging traits that lead to witch-outs.
    ---[X] Explain Kyuubey's reasons for wanting to turn magical girls into witches. This was the thing that Homura didn't know, so she couldn't explain Kyuubey's motives for being horrible.
    -[X] Bring up how you're going about witchbombing Sayaka, how you can give her the motive for Kyuubey being so horrible. Point out her improved thoughtfulness this time around. If Sayaka decides to learn, it will give her even more reason to trust Homura's judgement -- she was trying to save them from a horrible fate, after all.
    [X] Remain in timestop to continue conversation onto other topics.
    [X] Cleanse as needed.
    [X] Homura has kettle of boiling water in her inventory, tea would be nice -- tea-timestop?
    -[X] You're going to keep making Homura proper food to put into her inventory, for herself and for others.
    [X] Continue to be thorough and patient. With infinite cleansing, you've given Homura time to process and relax.
    [X] About Homura
    -[X] We're friends and partners in this. Mami is your-- well, yours, but Homura is your best friend.
    --[X] Addressing Homura's self-esteem issues regarding our successes compared to her failures: having an additional perspective helps. To that end, you're going to start fully detailing other things like that to Homura in the future, so that you can get her perspective.
    --[X] Information asymmetries: There are things your metaknowledge covers that Homura doesn't know, and things that Homura knows that you don't, information that can be vital.
    ---[X] For example, explain Kyubey's reasons for turning magical girls into witches. They're important for being able to predict the Incubator's actions.
    ----[X] In the long run, you're either going to have to "pay the incubators off" to stop them from hounding you to "regain their lost energy" from stopping witchouts, you're going to have to strong-arm a multi-galactic civilization, or both.
    --[X] Improved coordination: Too often you've just improvised, when you know Homura prefers planning. Indicate willingness to plan contingencies.
    ---[X] Specifically, once you've arranged for the key allies Homura suggested, you'd like to start working on detailed plans for Walpurgisnacht.
    ---[X] Arrange for non-telepathic signal for time-stop in case of tense situations -- you'll could use grief to take hold of her right hand?
    [X] For now though, next topic: Sayaka. It's good news. Complex, but good.
    -[X] Bring up Sayaka figuring out Homura caring specifically about Madoka, as well as her trusting Homura. Explain what you told Sayaka.
    -[X] "Sayaka always is insightful about the weirdest stuff." Bring up her 'past life' joke from Homura's first day at school this/last loop.
    -[X] This is a good thing here and now. Sayaka trusts you and Homura, knows that you know what's going on, and trusts both of you to have Madoka's best interests at heart. More than that, she's willing to help us keep Madoka well out of harms way.
    -[X] Expand upon your explanation of Sayaka from this morning -- most of Sayaka's weaknesses normally become strengths when she decides to trust someone, when the cruelty of the Incubator's system is held at bay.
    --[X] This is likely why Kyuubey keeps magic a secret, deliberately shaping events and his pitch to make it seem like a magical girl anime, because it's encouraging traits that lead to witch-outs.
    [X] Bring up how you're going about witchbombing Sayaka, how you can give her the motive for Kyuubey being so horrible. Point out her improved thoughtfulness this time around. If Sayaka decides to learn, it will give her even more reason to trust Homura's judgement -- she was trying to save them from a horrible fate, after all.
    [X] Remain in timestop to continue conversation onto other topics.
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Redshirt Army said:
@Godwinson

Firn confirmed that my edit is valid.
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Okay, still not awake all the way, but I should get onto this. Looking at your vote...

Start/Keep swap made, good point.
Dropped the soul gem/grief seed thing, because while I contend that it would be easily intuited as "Homura can move her own soul gem", I don't feel like dealing with a fight on the topic.
Not moving the Kyuubey's motivation thing, because it actually fits the flow of conversation better with where its at. In addition, having it show up later in the conversation will help to lend weight to the notion that Sabrina is taking the information thing seriously, rather than just doing it in that moment. It's something we should be doing more often anyway, but conversational callbacks add immediate reinforcement.
Added the bit about detailed Walpurgisnacht plans, because that's an excellent point. I will note, though, that Oriko's visions of her own mysterious death occurred when we were out of town trying to get more meguca in the lead-up to Walpurgisnacht. So we need to be careful about how and when we go about gathering those allies.
The number of significant topics is maintained, so no issues on vote size.
 
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Evilness42 said:
The issue with this approach is that, in the event of us actually failing, those things ... ... assurances that she can carry on without us, ...
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Let me respond to your concern, by telling you what my answer to this issue is?
If I could show you a reason to try the "committed to a group effort" thinking, over "Homura alone," will you?
Play in the way you know is best. Anything I do in error, say something better. "Being Better" is a theme, after all.

This Loop, or n-Loops? That choice was expended long ago. Mostly, we are attached to the Golden Ending.
Albert Einstein had these words: "One cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war."
Optimizing the valid strategy in execution has less failure attached than switching plans now. This is a generalization.
Our current strategy is always open to improvement. Completely invalidating the current strategy is not a choice to present without textual evidence, because adding only risk isn't cool.
OOC, we aren't randomly revising the story, time's arrow is part of the "rules" as observed.
IC, time's arrow is distinctly pink.

Doubt is wrong, Hope is correct.

I say we always need more people to find our way forward on the path of saving.
Allow me to welcome your help?
Sabrina is in the classic tactician's motivation scenario? Our unsafe perfect willingness to commit, on the one hand, becomes that edge we need to win. On the other, we burned the ship when we landed, there is no retreat. On the last, feeding our Emiya complex results in fun victories, and vivid losses. It has been working.
As we desired.
The Incubators have a success record longer than human culture, and sidestepping their strategy was always going to be innately high-risk.
Actual safety does not exist in this plot.
We love selecting and shaping that risk, it is a toy for the enjoyment of those who vote.
We set out to take one, best shot using the best effort.
Every understanding makes us better fans, and opens Sabrina's odds.
There are components of our plans that I argue from a multi-generational standpoint.
This, the "break the Loop" goal is only immediate to me.
And as my own position, without the pressure of "must succeed," Homura would have failed. Truly failed, and been destroyed. Mental health was not an option at the time. With that mindset, her past becomes experience - a well of resources - not failure.
Hope makes that transition effective.
 
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Back to my oft-distracted-from re-read of PMAS --
Firnagzen said:
"Hmm... possible," you allow. You somehow doubt Homura's going to offer any suggestions, so you press on. "Well... I was thinking, first of all, that we could introduce Sayaka to Oriko and Kirika, without telling her who they are? Let her get to know them first so that she can form her judgement without immediately jumping to hate?"

Homura frowns, her lips tightening, but she doesn't say anything.

"Um..." Mami frowns, too. "It seems a bit manipulative, Sabrina. U-um. Sorry."
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This was a mistake on our part, pure and simple. Not only because it would have been a transparently manipulative ploy once revealed, but also because even musing aloud about it means that Sabrina's friends now know that she is perfectly willing to engage in that sort of brazen manipulation based on secrets.

I would be entirely unsurprised to find that it contributed to Mami's unease with Sabrina, and her desperation during the metabomb incident.

It's also not something we can ever undo. As soon as people who trust you know that you're willing to manipulate other people who trust you, there will always be that doubt that maybe you're doing that to them.
 
We didn't end up doing that, though (did we?), so it should suffice as an example of how Sabrina can have bad ideas.
Sabrina can have great ideas, but she can also have ideas that are beyond terrible.

(I wonder whether it'll be Homura or Kirika that gives Mami a spritz bottle.)
 
Jonen C said:
We didn't end up doing that, though (did we?), so it should suffice as an example of how Sabrina can have bad ideas.
Sabrina can have great ideas, but she can also have ideas that are beyond terrible.

(I wonder whether it'll be Homura or Kirika that gives Mami a spritz bottle.)
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the difference between good people and bad people isn't that one never thinks or wants what is wrong, it is whether one has the moral fiber to think and want what is wrong, and still choose good
but still. just because we did the right thing, and moreso because we had.a bad idea and threw it away because we knew it was bad, it doesn't mean that it won't shake peoples trust in us that we are purely good
 
Jonen C said:
We didn't end up doing that, though (did we?), so it should suffice as an example of how Sabrina can have bad ideas.
Sabrina can have great ideas, but she can also have ideas that are beyond terrible.

(I wonder whether it'll be Homura or Kirika that gives Mami a spritz bottle.)
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soulsguardian said:
the difference between good people and bad people isn't that one never thinks or wants what is wrong, it is whether one has the moral fiber to think and want what is wrong, and still choose good
but still. just because we did the right thing, and moreso because we had.a bad idea and threw it away because we knew it was bad, it doesn't mean that it won't shake peoples trust in us that we are purely good
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The problem is that we only didn't do it because Mami and Homura both disagreed, one on moral grounds, the other on cold-blooded practicality grounds.

That sort of shit is... not something that ever goes away completely.

"Sabrina is the sort of person who, absent someone telling her otherwise, might well manipulate you based on knowledge she has that you don't."

Consider just how much her metaknowledge results in her knowing shit she shouldn't know? That's a rather nasty mistake to make.
 
Godwinson said:
The problem is that we only didn't do it because Mami and Homura both disagreed, one on moral grounds, the other on cold-blooded practicality grounds.

That sort of shit is... not something that ever goes away completely.

"Sabrina is the sort of person who, absent someone telling her otherwise, might well manipulate you based on knowledge she has that you don't."

Consider just how much her metaknowledge results in her knowing shit she shouldn't know? That's a rather nasty mistake to make.
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On the other hand though, as a certain recent discussion with Mami sorta confirmed, Sabrina isn't the same person now as she was back then. That was before Sabrina had people, when Sabrina was still, 'As long as everyone else is safe, then I can go on alone.'

This Sabrina today is not that Sabrina of yesterday. This Sabrina could hardly even really think Of moving on without her Friends, without her Girlfriend. The Sabrina of the present is more human, more alive.

More than just a personable abstraction of consensus.
 
Spectral Waltz said:
On the other hand though, as a certain recent discussion with Mami sorta confirmed, Sabrina isn't the same person now as she was back then. That was before Sabrina had people, when Sabrina was still, 'As long as everyone else is safe, then I can go on alone.'

This Sabrina today is not that Sabrina of yesterday. This Sabrina could hardly even really think Of moving on without her Friends, without her Girlfriend. The Sabrina of the present is more human, more alive.

More than just a personable abstraction of consensus.
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Yes, all of six days ago. This wasn't even at the beginning of the quest, this was over two-thirds the way into the quest. She was already her own distinct person well before then -- that happened sometime during the timestop hunt for Oriko, when the thread voted to actually carry through on the threat to witch-out Kirika if Oriko didn't answer, was full of vindictive anger (and only horror afterwards, when other questers showed up to react), yet Sabrina was sickened and horrified by it. What's more? I'm 99% certain that if Oriko hadn't cracked at that threat, @Firnagzen would have straight-up vetoed it as being out-of-character for Sabrina -- meaning that by that time, she already had an established character that could be broken. (And it'd probably have saved a lot of salt and grief if it'd been noted at the time, but it is what it is -- Firn's an eternal optimist when it comes to people.)

Anyway, I'm not saying that "Oh no, it's utterly ruined the quest that Sabrina did this", because that'd be stupid. I'm just saying that we would have been better off if we hadn't done that.
 
I don't think there's much of a point repudiating the thread for a suboptimal line in a vote that happened around 3 years ago. Sabrina wants to be better than this. That's what counts.
 
Godwinson said:
Anyway, I'm not saying that "Oh no, it's utterly ruined the quest that Sabrina did this", because that'd be stupid. I'm just saying that we would have been better off if we hadn't done that.
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Will you hate me if I say I'm not sure I agree?

It was a mistake, I agree. And it should make Homu and Mami worry about us.
But it also shows them that Sabrina does sometimes need to be reeled in. As we keep telling people recently, we have control issues and we try to do better. We want to be better. We want to help...

(But it would be so much easier to help if people just. stopped. resisting!)
Ahem.

Anyway, its a little bit of dissonance and contrast that helps show Mami that being there for Sabrina is good for Sabrina too.

And possibly it shows Homura when it comes down to it, we'd be down to grab a shovel and start digging without prompting. Because true friends help you hide the body.
(I mean, besides the fact wed probably use a grief woodchipper to vaporize the evidence, rather than a shallow grave. But metaphor!)
 
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Muramasa said:
I don't think there's much of a point repudiating the thread for a suboptimal line in a vote that happened around 3 years ago. Sabrina wants to be better than this. That's what counts.
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Sure. I'm pretty sure that if something similar was brought up now, it'd be shot down, so it's not even a "we need to not do this again", I've just been re-reading the thread and commenting on stuff that leaps out at me, that's all. Sometimes it's useful directly, sometimes it's useful because of the commentary it produces, other times it's utterly useless. Looks like this is one of the latter.
 
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Okay, I wanted to say stuff about timeline prepping, but then another epiphany hit me:

So, tying into Godwinson's latest speculation, an odd thought occurred to me. There's the hypothesis floating around that we're a terminal for something greater: By the capacity of our soul gem, our potential should be fairly midrange, but it's like its strapped to something much stronger. Maybe Madokami, maybe the rest of Walpurgisnacht. This also lines up with the 404 error Sayaka got. It's like she was trying to connect to something that wasn't there.

Which, leading to in the and Sabrina-as-WPN theory makes me ask, what if we're not actually the core of Walpurgis, disconnected from all the the rest of the souls that made her up?

What if we're just the doll?

Firn has hinted that he had something special in mind for Walprugisnacht. Well, what if that's we're not just last timeline's WPN? What if we're part of this timeline's WPN?

What if WPN is out there, the doll-less gear just... being Dedolere. She would have intervened as she did during the barrier incident because, through our eyes, she became a fan of Mami and wanted her to have a student. She would have been able to do so, because well, she's not bound to us and is in the city at the moment IIRC. Just hanging out in her barrier, waiting for the right moment.

Oriko's said her visions were "truncated and spliced" after the incident? All futures with any other outcome than Sayaka and Elsa Maria meeting disappear? Walpurgis' power is helplessness: Making it so events can only go one way and everyone is helpless to stop it kinda fits will all possible futures coming together in odd ways and those that don't being cut off.

And she doesn't flat out make Sayaka a magical girl either: She sets the stage for her to become one.

It would also explain both the invisitext voices that came after that moment and what they were saying: ("what is this?" "who are you?" "who is dreaming?" "where are you?" "I can't find you") The Barrier Incident called her to wakefulness for a bit, and seeing someone reminiscent of her fake doll is up walking around, it makes sense that for those chapters she was understandably wondering what the hell was even going on.

If she's not Feathers it could also tie into us not being able to fight Feathers proper: Beating up Walpurgis to release Feathers means beating up the source of our potential.

It could also tie into Feathers acting up when we're gone: Feathers shows up after WPN is defeated, which could mean she's keeping it in check. When we leave town, Walpurgis might leave with us.

So yeah, "our benefactor:" Walpurginacht.

(I wonder what would have happened if we'd tried "You don't have to hate anyone anymore")
 
Retsof said:
I feel sorry for Firn, he must have a huge list of "things that are still recent for the NPCs" that we've all forgotten about.
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.... yeah it causes issues some times. Stuff we think is old is still fresh for the characters and so forth. Plus the little things we forget.
 
An image from neverwhen...
In a clearing at the gravel wash on the small flat river bank, a wide low fire pit is filled with embers. Logs and stones surround it from a few steps distance, and seated on them are young girls. For all that they vary in obvious ways, having physical characteristics and riotous clothing that span the full range of the world, all of them are doing the same thing. They listen, with their ears and their souls. Those can be seen, by a sparkle of reflection from the large gemstone each girl bears in her own fashion. The fire light, and the dull twilight horizon makes the outdoor camp feel closed in, and the voice that is speaking fills that space with wonders.
A tall woman of uncertain advanced age sits among the ring, for tonight Sabrina the Rememberer has come to them with the Story once more.
 
Neinet said:
The scientist in me wants to think of Witching out Homura again for the purpose of seeing if we get the same result, then if it works, try doing the same thing under an interdiction field, and timestop, although I guess it's hard to recreate a thought.
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And the (hopefully nice) person in me says why would you even want to think about such a thing?!
 
Neinet said:
CENSORED FOR BEING SUBVERSIVE
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STOP THIS IMMEDIATELY.

Go read the front page again. You have clearly lost track of what this quest is if you are bringing up such things at this juncture. We don't need this in the middle of the current situation IC -- or ever, really.

I mean, it already happened once way back towards the start of the quest, with predictable results.
 
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