"I... you know, the one thing is that I'm not sure why Meiji would reject my offer outright, if the thing that they're belligerent is the same thing that I'm thinking of," you say. "Blech, words. You get what I mean. It... is one thing that doesn't quite add up with them."
Hmm, maybe because they know what Grief Seeds are and oppose our "modification" of them on moral grounds? Maybe they think that being given to kyubey results in them being put "to rest"? I could imagine kyubey giving some technically true weaselly answers that gave them that impression. Whereas our clear seeds could get passed around for decades or with cleansing indefinitely.
After all we haven't made the moral case to them that taking away the grief from the witch probably means it's ... not necessarily happier but at peace as opposed to suffering?
As much as it goes against the grain, lowering the shipping quotient is a good move here?
Homura didn't want Sayaka to contract - fact. And not shippy. Don't extend beyond that, perhaps the best way to deflect?
In the true explanation, I would rather Sayaka ask Homura about the relationship herself. In a suitable safe environment. Someday soon, that will work.
Hmm, maybe because they know what Grief Seeds are and oppose our "modification" of them on moral grounds? Maybe they think that being given to kyubey results in them being put "to rest"? I could imagine kyubey giving some technically true weaselly answers that gave them that impression. Whereas our clear seeds could get passed around for decades or with cleansing indefinitely.
After all we haven't made the moral case to them that taking away the grief from the witch probably means it's ... not necessarily happier but at peace as opposed to suffering?
I think it should be safe enough to confirm that Homura wants to protect Madoka in particular, and anything further isn't for us to say. It lets Sayaka predict Homura's actions without directly giving any clues Sayaka hasn't already figured out.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Mar 12, 2019 at 10:33 PM, finished with 150022 posts and 22 votes.
[x] Answer her. That's a good part of it. Yes. [x] Why? The short answer is Homura cares for Madoka very much and is doing the best she can to keep her safe. [x] The long answer is complicated and involves things I can't tell you and aren't mine to tell. I was hoping one day she'd tell you herself. [x] Homura has her reasons. They are good ones and they'll make complete sense to you once you have the context but only then. [x] Sayaka? Be patient with her okay? Things are hard for her.
[X] Pause flight, turn windows opaque. It's not a privacy field, but it's the next best thing.
[X] Intent: Establish that this topic is kept secret to protect Homura from emotional damage, and involves other secrets too.
[X] Tone: Frustrated with your inability to act and fix things, sympathetic to Sayaka's right to ask (it's her best friend who is the target of this, after all), and sombre empathy for Homura's reasons for keeping quiet.
[X] "Goddess, I would love to be able to talk about it, but it would be a breach of Homura's trust, and it's hard enough for her to be able to trust me -- trust anyone -- as it is. She's been burned by opening up to people before, and been called a liar and a traitor because of it. Even more, talking about this would get into some really painful, traumatic stuff for Homura, so I don't feel right trying to pressure her into talking about it. I've been talking to her about all of it, trying to help, but there's only so much that talking can do when dealing with years of trauma."
-[X] "It would also mean getting into that other secret, the one that's bad enough that if Chiyoda is using memory magic toward it... I don't approve, but I can understand someone using it on enemies, allies, and friends."
[X] Basically everything of Homura's past is a no-go, although you wish it wasn't.
-[X] You've seen the same things she has. They make sense, given context... You can't tell her what to think, but this isn't something you'd worry about.
[X] On a separate note... You can understand Chiyoda's actions, given certain assumptions. Enough that you're not massively upset with her.
[X] It's one of those things that's not mine to tell.
[X] I'd tell you to ask Homura about it, but she's probably not ready. It's difficult for her to talk about it even with me, but I am watching out for Homura, and Madoka too.
[X] Do let me know if you think Homura's behavior is troubling Madoka, you know her better than I do.
[X] Sayaka did notice
-[X] How does she think Madoka feels about that?
-[X] Is she aware what sort of answer she is asking for?
-[X] Would she leave it to us to schedule a time for her to ask Homura?
-[X] We want to help them during a complicated conversation that might result.
-[X] We can't speak for Homura, but we can vouch for her.
--[X] By the Goddess.
[X] Consider Chinese IRC contact with Sayaka
[X] Enchant some Grief
[X] Your mostly right?
-[X] Homura would fret terribly and be unhappy yes, and that's not far from my mind...
-[X] But it also IS really dangerous. You said so yourself "casually superhuman".
-[X] So what exactly have you noticed?
-[X] Because there is honestly too much it could be.
[x] Homura would murder you if she ever heard you telling anyone about her past, so you're afraid you can't tell Sayaka anything other than that the situation is as close to being under control as it's possible for anything related to this colossal clusterfuck to be. Her reasons are as good as anyone's, though, you suppose, so Sayaka should just keep in mind that everyone you're willing to put up with is a Good Person and that everything should make sense eventually.
[X] Answer - [X] Goddess, I wish I could talk about it. But it isn't my story to tell. Homura, well, you know how private she is about herself. Talking to you about any of that, revealing anything, no matter how little... It would be a breach of her trust. I'm sorry. All I can say is she has her reasons for the things she does, how she acts, everything. Looking out for Madoka, well, she has reasons for that too. I hope she'll be able to tell you them herself, eventually. {Vaguely This, I'll Let The Thread Threadpilot. Or Sabrina. Or Firn.} [X] If there's time left before school ends, go to a library and contact the Japanese meguca IRC. Standard greeting protocols. -[X] Sayaka's clone can join the important outreach/shitposting if she wants.
I think it should be safe enough to confirm that Homura wants to protect Madoka in particular, and anything further isn't for us to say. It lets Sayaka predict Homura's actions without directly giving any clues Sayaka hasn't already figured out.
Rather than erode any of Homura's privacy, how about try the "trying to respect everybody" position?
Therein, we say "I can't tell you what you see" and then ask her politely to wait a few days before she asks Homura herself.
One, Homura would want to handle her own privacy.
Two, Sayaka wants to be /included in the group
Three, we get a little time to prepare.
IRC topic -
Are all certain that a Japanese group in the best choice? Everyone in Japan has slightly easier access to us than elsewhere in the world. Further, these contacts should not cause us disasters if at all possible. Folks far away have less motive to make a competition decision against us. They are also less likely to get our aid ATM.
Of the options as pre-selected, China is likely to have more girls in need of help. And that choice will extend our reach faster.
How do we wanna do this? We'll confirm that there's something weird going on, sure, but do we just shove it all under "not my story to tell", or do we actually try to explain?
My first thought is something like... "Long ago, Homura had a mundane friend who she really cared for. That friend tried to help out with the whole magical girl situation and... suffered for it, immensely, before dying."
[X] Pause flight, turn windows opaque. It's not a privacy field, but it's the next best thing.
[X] Intent: Establish that this topic is kept secret to protect Homura from emotional damage, and involves other secrets too.
[X] Tone: Frustrated with your inability to act and fix things, sympathetic to Sayaka's right to ask (it's her best friend who is the target of this, after all), and sombre empathy for Homura's reasons for keeping quiet.
[X] "Goddess, I would love to be able to talk about it, but it would be a breach of Homura's trust, and it's hard enough for her to be able to trust me -- trust anyone -- as it is. She's been burned by opening up to people before, and been called a liar and a traitor because of it. Even more, talking about this would get into some really painful, traumatic stuff for Homura, so I don't feel right trying to pressure her into talking about it. I've been talking to her about all of it, trying to help, but there's only so much that talking can do when dealing with years of trauma."
-[X] "It would also mean getting into that other secret, the one that's bad enough that if Chiyoda is using memory magic toward it... I don't approve, but I can understand someone using it on enemies, allies, and friends."
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on Mar 12, 2019 at 4:13 PM, finished with 150014 posts and 18 votes.
[X] Pause flight, turn windows opaque. It's not a privacy field, but it's the next best thing.
[X] Intent: Establish that this topic is kept secret to protect Homura from emotional damage, and involves other secrets too.
[X] Tone: Frustrated with your inability to act and fix things, sympathetic to Sayaka's right to ask (it's her best friend who is the target of this, after all), and sombre empathy for Homura's reasons for keeping quiet.
[X] "Goddess, I would love to be able to talk about it, but it would be a breach of Homura's trust, and it's hard enough for her to be able to trust me -- trust anyone -- as it is. She's been burned by opening up to people before, and been called a liar and a traitor because of it. Even more, talking about this would get into some really painful, traumatic stuff for Homura, so I don't feel right trying to pressure her into talking about it. I've been talking to her about all of it, trying to help, but there's only so much that talking can do when dealing with years of trauma."
-[X] "It would also mean getting into that other secret, the one that's bad enough that if Chiyoda is using memory magic toward it... I don't approve, but I can understand someone using it on enemies, allies, and friends."
[x] Answer her. That's a good part of it. Yes. [x] Why? The short answer is Homura cares for Madoka very much and is doing the best she can to keep her safe. [x] The long answer is complicated and involves things I can't tell you and aren't mine to tell. I was hoping one day she'd tell you herself. [x] Homura has her reasons. They are good ones and they'll make complete sense to you once you have the context but only then. [x] Sayaka? Be patient with her okay? Things are hard for her.
[X] Basically everything of Homura's past is a no-go, although you wish it wasn't.
-[X] You've seen the same things she has. They make sense, given context... You can't tell her what to think, but this isn't something you'd worry about.
[X] On a separate note... You can understand Chiyoda's actions, given certain assumptions. Enough that you're not massively upset with her.
[X] It's one of those things that's not mine to tell.
[X] I'd tell you to ask Homura about it, but she's probably not ready. It's difficult for her to talk about it even with me, but I am watching out for Homura, and Madoka too.
[X] Do let me know if you think Homura's behavior is troubling Madoka, you know her better than I do.
[X] Sayaka did notice
-[X] How does she think Madoka feels about that?
-[X] Is she aware what sort of answer she is asking for?
-[X] Would she leave it to us to schedule a time for her to ask Homura?
-[X] We want to help them during a complicated conversation that might result.
-[X] We can't speak for Homura, but we can vouch for her.
--[X] By the Goddess.
[X] Consider Chinese IRC contact with Sayaka
[X] Enchant some Grief
[X] Your mostly right?
-[X] Homura would fret terribly and be unhappy yes, and that's not far from my mind...
-[X] But it also IS really dangerous. You said so yourself "casually superhuman".
-[X] So what exactly have you noticed?
-[X] Because there is honestly too much it could be.
[x] Homura would murder you if she ever heard you telling anyone about her past, so you're afraid you can't tell Sayaka anything other than that the situation is as close to being under control as it's possible for anything related to this colossal clusterfuck to be. Her reasons are as good as anyone's, though, you suppose, so Sayaka should just keep in mind that everyone you're willing to put up with is a Good Person and that everything should make sense eventually.
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on Mar 15, 2019 at 6:49 PM, finished with 150081 posts and 24 votes.
[x] Answer her. That's a good part of it. Yes. [x] Why? The short answer is Homura cares for Madoka very much and is doing the best she can to keep her safe. [x] The long answer is complicated and involves things I can't tell you and aren't mine to tell. I was hoping one day she'd tell you herself. [x] Homura has her reasons. They are good ones and they'll make complete sense to you once you have the context but only then. [x] Sayaka? She's a good person. Just... be patient with her okay? Things are hard for her.
[X] Pause flight, turn windows opaque. It's not a privacy field, but it's the next best thing.
[X] Intent: Establish that this topic is kept secret to protect Homura from emotional damage, and involves other secrets too.
[X] Tone: Frustrated with your inability to act and fix things, sympathetic to Sayaka's right to ask (it's her best friend who is the target of this, after all), and sombre empathy for Homura's reasons for keeping quiet.
[X] "Goddess, I would love to be able to talk about it, but it would be a breach of Homura's trust, and it's hard enough for her to be able to trust me -- trust anyone -- as it is. She's been burned by opening up to people before, and been called a liar and a traitor because of it. Even more, talking about this would get into some really painful, traumatic stuff for Homura, so I don't feel right trying to pressure her into talking about it. I've been talking to her about all of it, trying to help, but there's only so much that talking can do when dealing with years of trauma."
-[X] "It would also mean getting into that other secret, the one that's bad enough that if Chiyoda is using memory magic toward it... I don't approve, but I can understand someone using it on enemies, allies, and friends."
[X] It's one of those things that's not mine to tell.
[X] I'd tell you to ask Homura about it, but she's probably not ready. It's difficult for her to talk about it even with me, but I am watching out for Homura, and Madoka too.
[X] Do let me know if you think Homura's behavior is troubling Madoka, you know her better than I do.
[X] Sayaka did notice
-[X] How does she think Madoka feels about that?
-[X] Is she aware what sort of answer she is asking for?
-[X] Would she leave it to us to schedule a time for her to ask Homura?
-[X] We want to help them during a complicated conversation that might result.
-[X] We can't speak for Homura, but we can vouch for her.
--[X] By the Goddess.
[X] Consider Chinese IRC contact with Sayaka
[X] Enchant some Grief
[X] Answer - [X] Goddess, I wish I could talk about it. But it isn't my story to tell. Homura, well, you know how private she is about herself. Talking to you about any of that, revealing anything, no matter how little... It would be a breach of her trust. I'm sorry. All I can say is she has her reasons for the things she does, how she acts, everything. Looking out for Madoka, well, she has reasons for that too. I hope she'll be able to tell you them herself, eventually. {Vaguely This, I'll Let The Thread Threadpilot. Or Sabrina. Or Firn.} [X] If there's time left before school ends, go to a library and contact the Japanese meguca IRC. Standard greeting protocols. -[X] Sayaka's clone can join the important outreach/shitposting if she wants.
[X] How do you answer Sayaka? - [x] Confirm in vague terms. Reassure Sayaka about Homura's intentions. You want Sayaka to support Homura, not go digging and set her off. - [x] Apologize for not being able to say more. You hope that Homura will be able to tell everyone everything one day, but for now Homura trusts you to keep her secrets. - [x] In the meantime, assure Sayaka that Homura is a good person and doing what she can to help. Everyone deserves helping, but she deserves more than most.
hmmm... looking at Godwinson's vote I really feel that this is a good approach to things. Sabrina does her best to explain without breaching Homura's trust. She covers the points and while revealing that yes, it is something to do with Homura's and Madoka's relationship, it's just not something that is her place to talk about while covering another point without revealing too much. I'm not sure how much better this can be conveyed. So....
I like @Godwinson's vote, but I'd like a section that has us contact Homura to let her know we're having this conversation with Sayaka; best to keep her update. These are her secrets.
I like @Godwinson's vote, but I'd like a section that has us contact Homura to let her know we're having this conversation with Sayaka; best to keep her update. These are her secrets.
I'd argue to let her know in-person, after we've arrived. Telepathy means QB knows what's being said. Furthermore, it would simply add stress to her in the middle of class.
I'd argue to let her know in-person, after we've arrived. Telepathy means QB knows what's being said. Furthermore, it would simply add stress to her in the middle of class.
I was motivated by a few things in making the Japanese IRC the priority.
First of all, Sayaka's still hanging around, and I wanted to include her in the outreach. That means we have to stick to a language she's fluent in - and while her English is pretty good, there's no reason to think she's fluent in Mandarin or Vietnamese, and it's a pretty safe bet that she'd be most comfortable with Japanese.
Second of all, because it's local, if there are any immediate issues or emergencies to deal with, we can help out much more easily than we can if there's an issue in Europe or Africa or wherever.
Better to present Homura with a semi-resolved situation than one in progress? No, that might be perceived as abusing her trust.
I'm keeping my vote with Godwinson for now, but I've decided I'd like to inform Homura- via text- that Sayaka's asking about her motivations, and that we're handling it.
I'll note that with Kyuubey's senses, telecommunications are almost as obvious to him as telepathy would be. I'd really rather tell Homura about this in person, in private.
I'll note that with Kyuubey's senses, telecommunications are almost as obvious to him as telepathy would be. I'd really rather tell Homura about this in person, in private.
But I don't think Sayaka would put us in the spotlight on that... Well, unless maybe we use a foreign language and put strange emphasis on it, but then it wouldn't so much be about the religion as much as why we said it like that.
Kind of like if we insisted on using grief to add lightning, thunder and frightened horsenoises whenever someone said Frau Blucher *lightning flashes, thunder rolls, frightened whinnying is heard from the stables*.
My position here is, strengthening Sayaka's empathy and support for Homura is a vital task for avoiding in-group catastrophes, as well as doing wonders for Homura's morale since conflict with Sayaka is one of the biggest causes for catastrophe in previous loops.
Imagine how much it could mean to Homura if Sayaka is kind and understanding, and promises to believe her? How much would it show her that things can be changed from the constant drumbeat of tragedy?
I'd missed this line earlier (I'm still sick, and posted right after waking up, so this sort of lapse makes sense) I'd considered putting a suggestion along those lines down in my vote, but I realized that Sayaka just bringing the subject up with Homura would simply make her close off and go on the defensive -- Homura is far too used to hostile suspicion from Sayaka, and has some really bad memories related to trying to talk to people about her secrets. Sayaka has about as much tact and subtlety as Sabrina does, and she doesn't know where the trauma-mines are to navigate that social minefield.
I'd missed this line earlier (I'm still sick, and posted right after waking up, so this sort of lapse makes sense) I'd considered putting a suggestion along those lines down in my vote, but I realized that Sayaka just bringing the subject up with Homura would simply make her close off and go on the defensive -- Homura is far too used to hostile suspicion from Sayaka, and has some really bad memories related to trying to talk to people about her secrets. Sayaka has about as much tact and subtlety as Sabrina does, and she doesn't know where the trauma-mines are to navigate that social minefield.
... now waiting for Sayaka and Homura to have a sleep over only for Sayaka to play the looping arc of Haruhi Suzumiya : p
Sayaka: ..... Homura, did you just unload a MP5 into my TV?
Homura:..... Maybe
Kyoko: Blueberry, I heard you were serving food and..... am I interrupting?
