- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
*muffled swearing*
And, it'd probably piss Kyoko off if we ask to bring it back up.
Setting vote to
[X] Null
while I think things over.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
*muffled swearing*
And, it'd probably piss Kyoko off if we ask to bring it back up.
Setting vote to
[X] Null
while I think things over.
- Location
- Illinois
You know, tbh, the thing I'm most concerned about it how Kyouko is using her whole "oh, Sabrina is some kind of saint" shtick to write off what we're saying about her not being a bad person.
I don't think we should be letting that stand, and I think I know exactly how to do a better job of tackling that, and I think that it's tied up with Mami.
To get to that point, though, we're gonna have to take a nice long trip out on a tangent. See, the thing that the current votes are kind of missing is that there's nothing to reconcile on Mami's end of things. Kyouko could show up at Mami's doorstep and say absolutely nothing and Mami would just be happy to have her back. Kyouko has at every step failed to actually convince Mami to not want to help her and to have her around -- even right up to the fight in TDS, this is going on:
(Kyouko talks about how she's at fault for her family's deaths, and how she now is only going to use her magic for herself and won't help others and thinks that they shouldn't hunt familiars -- that is the language used in the on-shelf official translation, she does not suggest familiar farming, she suggests not hunting familiars, since hunting familiars doesn't yield rewards.)
"I don't care how tough it is for you right now, I can't let you choose a life like that! Here you go, trying too hard to act strong, even though it's going to make things even tougher for you! How can I leave you alone like this!?"
"I just can't."
"Okay, then..."
*Kyouko transforms, a burst of wind expands from her, forcing Mami to release her grip on Kyouko's arm.*
"I'm leaving if I have to blast you away to do it!"
"I see. You don't intend to talk this over rationally, correct? You really are always causing your senpai problems!"
*Mami transforms*
And things don't change afterwards, either. Mami gives up on stopping Kyouko from leaving and makes a remark about whether Kyouko will be able to handle the loneliness that honestly comes off to an outside observer as being like 90% directed at herself, and then breaks down crying.
And then, the thing is, we later get this stuff in PMAS:
Which doesn't mesh with the facts at all... except, I think, it also does -- I think it meshes nicely with Mami looking back on that night, and thinking to herself that she failed to keep ahold of Kyouko by fighting, failed to make a decent final impression on Kyouko by fighting her instead of doing something decent like telling Kyouko that her door would always be open, and blaming herself for having fought Kyouko at all, because why the hell did she fight the person she was trying to help?
I think it meshes nicely with Mami looking back on that night time after time and recriminating herself for her actions. I think it meshes nicely with those actions being based in desperation at the time. I think it meshes nicely with Mami looking back and going, "I shot at Kyouko!" I think it meshes nicely with Mami being an unreliable narrator who has spent a very long time beating herself up over the events of that night, and considering her attitude towards people leaving her -- an attitude of "what did I do wrong?" rather than one of "damn this sucks" -- I find myself less than surprised by all of it.
That it's honestly just the only way that all of the canon material we have around Mami's views on this makes sense doesn't hurt, either.
The point to be taken from this is: Kyouko has managed to get Mami to have a problem with her exactly never. The entire root of Mami's contribution to that fight -- I've looked over this stuff a half dozen times now, I just can not conceive of it being anything but Mami desperately trying to hold on to her only friend, having no time whatsoever to think of how best to go about it, and ending up doing what she did because of those factors.
So now, I'm going to come back around to the idea that we should try to not just let Kyouko shrug off our belief that she's not, you know, doomed to hell and evil and shit -- and the tie in is that Mami not having a problem with Kyouko now or ever means that we can do this:
[] You don't think Kyouko knows this, but if she were to just show up on Mami's doorstep tomorrow and say nothing at all, the reception she'd get from Mami would be this: repeated, tearful apologies mixed with offers of food and friendship, and possibly also housing. Mami has no problem with her whatsoever.
[] Kyouko thinks you're out here saying all this stuff to her because you're a saint or somesuch, preaching about how everyone deserves redemption no matter who they are. But the fact of the matter is, there is literally only one person who has a problem with Kyouko, and that's Kyouko. The only person who believes for a moment that she's condemned is her.
[] ... You're sorry about what you said about housing.
There's one big pitfall with that alone -- specifically there's little to no reason why Kyouko wouldn't push an interrupt with "well why'd she fight me then?"
But, well...
Glances back up
Quite... conveniently... almost as if I planned for it, we have an answer for that.
-[] In response to anything regarding the fight: Mami has no problem with Kyouko. Mami's problem is her massive and repeatedly exacerbated abandonment issues. At one point, you accidentally convinced Mami that you were breaking ties with her, and promptly ended up in a ribbon cocoon -- and you weren't even transformed. The only thing you've ever heard from Mami on the topic is how much she regrets what she did that night -- and based on everything you know about her, the sentiment there is that she wishes she'd told Kyouko that her door would always be open instead of trying to force her to stay.
Is that open regret that you parted on poor terms I see right there Mami? Yeah, that's what I see.
The sole plausible reaction from Mami to Kyouko showing up is lots and lots of crying and apologizing and asking Kyouko to please be her friend again and if she doesn't want to then that's okay too (even if it's really not and would she please stay). And I think we can work that into an angle of, "I don't have a problem with you, Mami doesn't have a problem with you, Yuma doesn't have a problem with you, Sayaka doesn't have a problem with you, literally the only person who has a problem with you is you. It doesn't have anything to do with me being too damn nice it's just the truth."
I think that's the angle we want, here, and I think it's an angle that's just missing from all the extant votes -- and so, here I am.
[X] You don't think Kyouko knows this, but if she were to just show up on Mami's doorstep tomorrow and say nothing at all, the reception she'd get from Mami would be this: repeated, tearful apologies mixed with offers of food and friendship, and possibly also housing. Mami has no problem with her whatsoever.
-[X] In response to anything regarding the fight: Mami has no problem with Kyouko. Mami's problem is her massive and repeatedly exacerbated abandonment issues. At one point, you accidentally convinced Mami that you were breaking ties with her, and promptly ended up in a ribbon cocoon -- and you weren't even transformed. The only thing you've ever heard from Mami on the topic is how much she regrets what she did that night -- and based on everything you know about her, the sentiment there is that she wishes she'd told Kyouko that her door would always be open instead of trying to force her to stay.
[X] Kyouko thinks you're out here saying all this stuff to her because you're a saint or somesuch, preaching about how everyone deserves redemption no matter who they are. But the fact of the matter is, there is literally only one person who has a problem with Kyouko, and that's Kyouko. The only person who believes for a moment that she's condemned is her.
[X] ... You're sorry about what you said about housing.
If there's anything I forgot to justify LMK -- and that last line is just, I mean, it's just something that should be there because there's nothing stopping us from putting it there.
I don't think we should be letting that stand, and I think I know exactly how to do a better job of tackling that, and I think that it's tied up with Mami.
To get to that point, though, we're gonna have to take a nice long trip out on a tangent. See, the thing that the current votes are kind of missing is that there's nothing to reconcile on Mami's end of things. Kyouko could show up at Mami's doorstep and say absolutely nothing and Mami would just be happy to have her back. Kyouko has at every step failed to actually convince Mami to not want to help her and to have her around -- even right up to the fight in TDS, this is going on:
(Kyouko talks about how she's at fault for her family's deaths, and how she now is only going to use her magic for herself and won't help others and thinks that they shouldn't hunt familiars -- that is the language used in the on-shelf official translation, she does not suggest familiar farming, she suggests not hunting familiars, since hunting familiars doesn't yield rewards.)
"I don't care how tough it is for you right now, I can't let you choose a life like that! Here you go, trying too hard to act strong, even though it's going to make things even tougher for you! How can I leave you alone like this!?"
"I just can't."
"Okay, then..."
*Kyouko transforms, a burst of wind expands from her, forcing Mami to release her grip on Kyouko's arm.*
"I'm leaving if I have to blast you away to do it!"
"I see. You don't intend to talk this over rationally, correct? You really are always causing your senpai problems!"
*Mami transforms*
And things don't change afterwards, either. Mami gives up on stopping Kyouko from leaving and makes a remark about whether Kyouko will be able to handle the loneliness that honestly comes off to an outside observer as being like 90% directed at herself, and then breaks down crying.
And then, the thing is, we later get this stuff in PMAS:
Which doesn't mesh with the facts at all... except, I think, it also does -- I think it meshes nicely with Mami looking back on that night, and thinking to herself that she failed to keep ahold of Kyouko by fighting, failed to make a decent final impression on Kyouko by fighting her instead of doing something decent like telling Kyouko that her door would always be open, and blaming herself for having fought Kyouko at all, because why the hell did she fight the person she was trying to help?
I think it meshes nicely with Mami looking back on that night time after time and recriminating herself for her actions. I think it meshes nicely with those actions being based in desperation at the time. I think it meshes nicely with Mami looking back and going, "I shot at Kyouko!" I think it meshes nicely with Mami being an unreliable narrator who has spent a very long time beating herself up over the events of that night, and considering her attitude towards people leaving her -- an attitude of "what did I do wrong?" rather than one of "damn this sucks" -- I find myself less than surprised by all of it.
That it's honestly just the only way that all of the canon material we have around Mami's views on this makes sense doesn't hurt, either.
The point to be taken from this is: Kyouko has managed to get Mami to have a problem with her exactly never. The entire root of Mami's contribution to that fight -- I've looked over this stuff a half dozen times now, I just can not conceive of it being anything but Mami desperately trying to hold on to her only friend, having no time whatsoever to think of how best to go about it, and ending up doing what she did because of those factors.
So now, I'm going to come back around to the idea that we should try to not just let Kyouko shrug off our belief that she's not, you know, doomed to hell and evil and shit -- and the tie in is that Mami not having a problem with Kyouko now or ever means that we can do this:
[] You don't think Kyouko knows this, but if she were to just show up on Mami's doorstep tomorrow and say nothing at all, the reception she'd get from Mami would be this: repeated, tearful apologies mixed with offers of food and friendship, and possibly also housing. Mami has no problem with her whatsoever.
[] Kyouko thinks you're out here saying all this stuff to her because you're a saint or somesuch, preaching about how everyone deserves redemption no matter who they are. But the fact of the matter is, there is literally only one person who has a problem with Kyouko, and that's Kyouko. The only person who believes for a moment that she's condemned is her.
[] ... You're sorry about what you said about housing.
There's one big pitfall with that alone -- specifically there's little to no reason why Kyouko wouldn't push an interrupt with "well why'd she fight me then?"
But, well...
Glances back up
Quite... conveniently... almost as if I planned for it, we have an answer for that.
-[] In response to anything regarding the fight: Mami has no problem with Kyouko. Mami's problem is her massive and repeatedly exacerbated abandonment issues. At one point, you accidentally convinced Mami that you were breaking ties with her, and promptly ended up in a ribbon cocoon -- and you weren't even transformed. The only thing you've ever heard from Mami on the topic is how much she regrets what she did that night -- and based on everything you know about her, the sentiment there is that she wishes she'd told Kyouko that her door would always be open instead of trying to force her to stay.
Is that open regret that you parted on poor terms I see right there Mami? Yeah, that's what I see.
The sole plausible reaction from Mami to Kyouko showing up is lots and lots of crying and apologizing and asking Kyouko to please be her friend again and if she doesn't want to then that's okay too (even if it's really not and would she please stay). And I think we can work that into an angle of, "I don't have a problem with you, Mami doesn't have a problem with you, Yuma doesn't have a problem with you, Sayaka doesn't have a problem with you, literally the only person who has a problem with you is you. It doesn't have anything to do with me being too damn nice it's just the truth."
I think that's the angle we want, here, and I think it's an angle that's just missing from all the extant votes -- and so, here I am.
[X] You don't think Kyouko knows this, but if she were to just show up on Mami's doorstep tomorrow and say nothing at all, the reception she'd get from Mami would be this: repeated, tearful apologies mixed with offers of food and friendship, and possibly also housing. Mami has no problem with her whatsoever.
-[X] In response to anything regarding the fight: Mami has no problem with Kyouko. Mami's problem is her massive and repeatedly exacerbated abandonment issues. At one point, you accidentally convinced Mami that you were breaking ties with her, and promptly ended up in a ribbon cocoon -- and you weren't even transformed. The only thing you've ever heard from Mami on the topic is how much she regrets what she did that night -- and based on everything you know about her, the sentiment there is that she wishes she'd told Kyouko that her door would always be open instead of trying to force her to stay.
[X] Kyouko thinks you're out here saying all this stuff to her because you're a saint or somesuch, preaching about how everyone deserves redemption no matter who they are. But the fact of the matter is, there is literally only one person who has a problem with Kyouko, and that's Kyouko. The only person who believes for a moment that she's condemned is her.
[X] ... You're sorry about what you said about housing.
If there's anything I forgot to justify LMK -- and that last line is just, I mean, it's just something that should be there because there's nothing stopping us from putting it there.
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Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
...My only issue with this is that we've still never actually brought up the idea of 'we want you to talk to Mami' up until this point, so it needs a lead-in line.
Aside from that...
[x] Kaizuki
- Location
- Illinois
I don't think I'm including a statement of "you should talk to Mami" in this. It's actually rather against the narrative I want to run on... What I want, at the end of the day, is for Kyouko to recognize that she's not actually an evil bitch. That is what needs to be our overall goal with her, although whether we'll actually achieve it is an open question.
Bringing Kyouko and Mami back to being friends with each other... it would be nice, yes, but it's not something we should be viewing as a goal unless it helps both Mami and Kyouko. And yet, I feel like Sabrina can actually speak for Mami, here, in order to help Kyouko, and I feel that way because, well --
... Mami wanted to help Kyouko. I think it's high time she was able to, through us or otherwise.
Bringing Kyouko and Mami back to being friends with each other... it would be nice, yes, but it's not something we should be viewing as a goal unless it helps both Mami and Kyouko. And yet, I feel like Sabrina can actually speak for Mami, here, in order to help Kyouko, and I feel that way because, well --
... Mami wanted to help Kyouko. I think it's high time she was able to, through us or otherwise.
- Location
- Illinois
Initially it can only hurt. If she asks us how we can be sure about Mami's feelings on the matter, I think at that point it helps and not before.
- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Kaizuki
Catgirl does the people thing far better than I ever could.
Catgirl does the people thing far better than I ever could.
- Location
- Illinois
Only when I'm functional.
- Location
- Illinois
Mmm... one more touch.
[X] You don't think Kyouko knows this, but if she were to just show up on Mami's doorstep tomorrow and say nothing at all, the reception she'd get from Mami would be this: repeated, tearful apologies mixed with offers of food and friendship, and possibly also housing. Mami has no problem with her whatsoever.
-[X] In response to anything regarding the fight: Mami has no problem with Kyouko. Mami's problem is her massive and repeatedly exacerbated abandonment issues. At one point, you accidentally convinced Mami that you were breaking ties with her, and promptly ended up in a ribbon cocoon -- and you weren't even transformed. The only thing you've ever heard from Mami on the topic is how much she regrets what she did that night -- and based on everything you know about her, the sentiment there is that she wishes she'd told Kyouko that her door would always be open instead of trying to force her to stay.
--[X] If it becomes relevant: "Mami tried to kill Kyouko that night" is a false statement.
[X] Kyouko thinks you're out here saying all this stuff to her because you're a saint or somesuch, preaching about how everyone deserves redemption no matter who they are. But the fact of the matter is, there is literally only one person who has a problem with Kyouko, and that's Kyouko. The only person who believes for a moment that she's condemned is her.
[X] ... You're sorry about what you said about housing.
[X] You don't think Kyouko knows this, but if she were to just show up on Mami's doorstep tomorrow and say nothing at all, the reception she'd get from Mami would be this: repeated, tearful apologies mixed with offers of food and friendship, and possibly also housing. Mami has no problem with her whatsoever.
-[X] In response to anything regarding the fight: Mami has no problem with Kyouko. Mami's problem is her massive and repeatedly exacerbated abandonment issues. At one point, you accidentally convinced Mami that you were breaking ties with her, and promptly ended up in a ribbon cocoon -- and you weren't even transformed. The only thing you've ever heard from Mami on the topic is how much she regrets what she did that night -- and based on everything you know about her, the sentiment there is that she wishes she'd told Kyouko that her door would always be open instead of trying to force her to stay.
--[X] If it becomes relevant: "Mami tried to kill Kyouko that night" is a false statement.
[X] Kyouko thinks you're out here saying all this stuff to her because you're a saint or somesuch, preaching about how everyone deserves redemption no matter who they are. But the fact of the matter is, there is literally only one person who has a problem with Kyouko, and that's Kyouko. The only person who believes for a moment that she's condemned is her.
[X] ... You're sorry about what you said about housing.
- Location
- Germany
[X] Kaizuki
Nihilo
Authorial parasite
- Location
- Catalonia
I was gearing up for a binge when I noticed this in the Useful Information section.
If you're still updating that list, feel free to add Catalan. I'm a native speaker.
- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
There's an updated language list in Sabrina's Day Planner, under misc.
As a side note, I wonder how well Brina can "fake" knowing a language by using brain-Google and other internet resources. Grammar would be an issue, but merely knowing the words to basically every language known to man is... something, to say the least.
- Location
- Illinois
... That's what -- ok
[X] You don't think Kyouko knows this, but if she were to just show up on Mami's doorstep tomorrow and say nothing at all, the reception she'd get from Mami would be this: repeated, tearful apologies mixed with offers of food and friendship, and possibly also housing. Mami has no problem with her whatsoever.
-[X] In response to Kyouko disbelieving: Mami has no problem with Kyouko. Mami's problem is her massive and repeatedly exacerbated abandonment issues. At one point, you accidentally convinced Mami that you were breaking ties with her, and promptly ended up in a ribbon cocoon -- and you weren't even transformed. The only thing you've ever heard from Mami on the topic is how much she regrets what she did that last night -- and based on everything you know about her, the sentiment there is that she wishes she'd told Kyouko that her door would always be open instead of trying to force her to stay.
--[X] If it becomes relevant: "Mami tried to kill Kyouko that night" is a false statement.
[X] Kyouko thinks you're out here saying all this stuff to her because you're a saint or somesuch, preaching about how everyone deserves redemption no matter who they are. But the fact of the matter is, there is literally only one person who has a problem with Kyouko, and that's Kyouko. The only person who believes for a moment that she's condemned is her.
[X] ... You're sorry about what you said about housing.
[X] You don't think Kyouko knows this, but if she were to just show up on Mami's doorstep tomorrow and say nothing at all, the reception she'd get from Mami would be this: repeated, tearful apologies mixed with offers of food and friendship, and possibly also housing. Mami has no problem with her whatsoever.
-[X] In response to Kyouko disbelieving: Mami has no problem with Kyouko. Mami's problem is her massive and repeatedly exacerbated abandonment issues. At one point, you accidentally convinced Mami that you were breaking ties with her, and promptly ended up in a ribbon cocoon -- and you weren't even transformed. The only thing you've ever heard from Mami on the topic is how much she regrets what she did that last night -- and based on everything you know about her, the sentiment there is that she wishes she'd told Kyouko that her door would always be open instead of trying to force her to stay.
--[X] If it becomes relevant: "Mami tried to kill Kyouko that night" is a false statement.
[X] Kyouko thinks you're out here saying all this stuff to her because you're a saint or somesuch, preaching about how everyone deserves redemption no matter who they are. But the fact of the matter is, there is literally only one person who has a problem with Kyouko, and that's Kyouko. The only person who believes for a moment that she's condemned is her.
[X] ... You're sorry about what you said about housing.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I feel like I'm on the verge of having an insight on Sabrina and her need to help people using how Mami keeps Sabrina from being soley focused on the mission.
But I can't make the puzzle pieces fit.
: | DAMN IT BRAIN WORK BETTER
But I can't make the puzzle pieces fit.
: | DAMN IT BRAIN WORK BETTER
Dragontrapper
Homeless Draconis
- Location
- A Tower in the middle of nowhere
Without Mami we'd probably turn into Homura? I think we've had that thought (or something like it) before...
- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Sir, yes, sir!
*pounds insightful button furiously*
*pounds insightful button furiously*
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm trying to bridge the gap between THAT and making a breakthrough with Kyoko...
I feel like something is there... I just can't see it.
Getting drunk did not help!
edit: I think the idea I'm going for is that in many ways Sabrina IS being selfish.. sorta in that this all gives HER some benifit.
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- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
uhh
Forgo sleep! And hygiene! I always have my best ideas when sleep-deprived and smelly!
- Location
- Illinois
Dragontrapper
Homeless Draconis
- Location
- A Tower in the middle of nowhere
Basically - between our amnesia, our power and are own psychology, we'd be very prone to ennui (due to not having to actually DO anything) or emotionless quasi-utilitarian manipulation of people/simple uni-lateral intervention without any discussion because we'd be SO SURE we know better.
We are a lot like our mom's - we're dominated by often irrational urges and most of our struggle is dealing with that. One one end, if we do nothing we end up like Madoka and have some sort of existential crisis. On the other, if we go about fixing things in the most direct way possible, we've basically become Homura.
Friends and socialization temper those impulses, gives us a purpose that isn't 'Save Everyone'. But we're still Us - we still get anxious when we think about how one of these people we care about due to all the not-memories in our head tell us how bad they have it and that we haven't fixed it yet.
That's what Kyoko pays us back with when she lets us help her - we're that much more stable. that much more able to focus.
We aren't a saint, we're a teenager with neuroses and phenomenal cosmic power. so, to borrow a meme - her letting us help her makes our brain damage act up less.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Okay, so. I'm... not really a fan of the current vote, as it's written out. I agree with the intentions, more or less, but I've never really liked dictating what Sabrina says to that fine a level of detail.
So I'll give it my usual pass to 150, mostly as a means of forcing myself to turn it into something intent based instead of action based. Then everyone can pile on me for "not understanding people" and stick with the current vote anyway. :/
[X] There's a lot less of an issue with her hanging out than she thinks there is. Nobody really has an issue with her - not even Mami.
-[X] Mami's issues aren't with Kyouko. Mami's main problem is her massive and repeatedly exacerbated abandonment issues. As far as you can tell, when it comes to that night, Mami wishes she'd told Kyouko that her door would always be open instead of trying to force her to stay.
[X] Kyouko thinks you're here just because you're that much of a bleeding heart. But truthfully the only one who has a problem with Kyouko is Kyouko. The only person who believes for a moment that she's condemned is her.
116 words.
So I'll give it my usual pass to 150, mostly as a means of forcing myself to turn it into something intent based instead of action based. Then everyone can pile on me for "not understanding people" and stick with the current vote anyway. :/
[X] There's a lot less of an issue with her hanging out than she thinks there is. Nobody really has an issue with her - not even Mami.
-[X] Mami's issues aren't with Kyouko. Mami's main problem is her massive and repeatedly exacerbated abandonment issues. As far as you can tell, when it comes to that night, Mami wishes she'd told Kyouko that her door would always be open instead of trying to force her to stay.
[X] Kyouko thinks you're here just because you're that much of a bleeding heart. But truthfully the only one who has a problem with Kyouko is Kyouko. The only person who believes for a moment that she's condemned is her.
116 words.
Last edited:
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We stepped on a landmine and apologized to Mami for worrying her.
Framing our actions as selfishness for Kyoko's benefit is fine, but turning it into actual character analysis only works if you stretch "selfish" to the point of meaninglessness.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
god-damn it Kyoko you we're easier to deal with when you just tried to stab Sayaka in the face!!
Mind you, no Yuma with that one so net loss overall but still.
Mind you, no Yuma with that one so net loss overall but still.