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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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I hate breaking promises. That said, turns out I hate being helpless even more.
I'm gonna come from the other side on this one, with the mind on Kyouko wanting and responding better to a direct confrontation.

[X] Wait until the great bubble debacle is over. Help if neccessary.
[X] When you are alone again:
-[X] So she's asking what she can do in return. Repeatedly. Heh, guess you're not the only one with a bleeding heart in the room, not that you didn't know.
-[X] Can you punch her for making your girlfriend sad and lonely?
--[X] ... Is that what she wanted to hear?
-[X] The problem with having knowledge of private things is that you've taken their privacy away without consent or giving anything in return. You are uncomfortable with that.
--[X] You're even more uncomfortable with her defeatist attitude. Plough on.
---[X] You know what she said and what she did. You know why she said and did what she did.
---[X] It was selfish and self-destructive, making Mami hurt to hurt herself. Get over it.
-[X] The one thing you want from her is to stop punishing herself, to stop being a coward and get on with the rest of her life.
--[X] Fix what she can, and let go of what she cannot. You both know where their with Mami issues lie. This is your price. Does she still think it's too small?

Two hundred. One. Words.
*Laughs evilly*

Not telling her exactly to make up with Mami, but I'm pretty sure you can see what I'm getting on here. More importantly, so does Kyouko. Y'see, Kyouko knows she did badwrong. That was her goal all along, to separate herself from one person still alive who gave a shit about her at the time. Now it's just about self-punishment and a little bit fear of rejection. So this whole thing is designed to confront her about her aims nad fears: to punish herself, because she feels like shit and thinks she deserves to go to hell, in her own words, and not to apologize, because it's really freaking hard and she's afraid she's not going to be forgiven.

I mean, I'm not actually expecting people to vote for this, but I hope this is going to be thought-provoking, though I hope to gods, not inflammatory.
Not going to vote for anything else, sorry, hope you guys won't think I'm an arrogant troll, but I found out the hard way that I cannot keep my cool in long discussions. So I'm not actually returning, more like, eh, dropping by, if it makes sense.
Cheers!
MumiBrina FTW, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Okay, here goooooes
*posts and runs away goes to sleep with dignity*
 
Im not going to vote to lie to her, or just manipulate her more. She can handle the truth, and she deserves it.

[] You ever miss someone you've never met?
-[] *Deep breath, sigh* I remeber you being part of our? Their? My? magical girl group, yes you even managed to make up with Mami. On your own no less.
-[]"..."
-[] How do you think I felt when I woke up in that alley? no parents, no friends, no family. I didnt even have a name Kyouko. Just half a dozen girls I knew like family, and I knew were amazing
-[] I'm here because I miss you, I'm here because it hurts when you look at me like a stranger.
-[] You guys are literally all I have in the world, your my family, my friends, and the reason for me to even exist...
-[] I think it would be great. For everyone.

Honestly the whole "Sabrina has used the mitakihara girls as a substitute family" thing has been percolating for a while.

I got struck by inspiration and wanted to make sub text into text.
 
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Raiseth said:
I mean, I'm not actually expecting people to vote for this, but I hope this is going to be thought-provoking, though I hope to gods, not inflammatory.
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Really? It actually seems like a decent vote to me. I'd change a few things here and there but...

[x] Wait until the great bubble debacle is over. Help as neccessary.
[x] When you are alone again:
-[x] So she's asking what she can do in return. Repeatedly. Heh, guess you're not the only one with a bleeding heart in the room, not that you didn't know.
-[x] Can she let you punch her for making your girlfriend sad and lonely?
--[x] ... Is that what she wanted to hear?
-[x] The problem with having knowledge of private things is that you've taken their privacy away without consent or giving anything in return. You are uncomfortable with that.
--[x] But you're even more uncomfortable with her defeatist attitude.
---[x] You know what she said and what she did. You know why she said and did what she did.
---[x] It was selfish and self-destructive, making Mami hurt to hurt herself. Get over it.
-[x] The one thing you want from her is to stop punishing herself and at least make an effort to fix things with Mami, to stop being a coward and get on with the rest of her life.
--[x] Fix what she can, and let go of what she cannot. You both know where their with Mami issues lie. This is your price. Does she still think it's too small?
 
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One thing to point out here is that I think we're at a point where Yuma has spent the last little while trying to prevent us and Kyouko from fighting in an escalating fashion. First with a worried warning gesture, then explicit statements and hugs, and now it wouldn't surprise me if she felt she had to bail us out and started that mess of bubbles deliberately, because she foresaw this coming to a fight, and called in Kyouko when she thought it was about to happen.

I mean, the bubbles were already spilling out the door when she called Kyouko in. She likely waited for a while.

Godwinson said:
-snip-
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DELETED

[X] Roll things back a bit, you're worried you may be being pushy and inconsiderate... again: Ask Kyouko if she's insistent because she feels obligated to return the favor, or if helping us is something wants to do. You don't want obligation, but you could accept Kyouko doing things because she wants to.
-[X] Part of your problem accepting things from her thinking they're her obligation is that the things you could ask are also things you have no right to ask. Ever.
 
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The Phoenixian said:
We've had repeated warnings about this topic, in the form of Sabrina's hesitation to raise it earlier, and from Kyouko and Yuma's actions right now.
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Except that's a dangerous road to go down because a good portion of Sabrina's hesitation or enthusiasm to do anything often correlates directly to the thread's, so that can result in some kind of bizarre confirmation bias where the thread's attitude causes Sabrina to be wary and then the thread takes Sabrina's wariness as reason to worry and doubles down.
 
Spectral Waltz said:
Except that's a dangerous road to go down because a good portion of Sabrina's hesitation or enthusiasm to do anything often correlates directly to the thread's, so that can result in some kind of bizarre confirmation bias where the thread's attitude causes Sabrina to be wary and then the thread takes Sabrina's wariness as reason to worry and doubles down.
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Adding to that, we're on page 5967 already, while having Kyouko and Mami reconcile has been a goal of the quest from day 1. Can we please toss the two of them in a room already? >.<"
 
The Phoenixian said:
To be frank, I worry you're barreling head on into a brick wall here. I think approaching the topic like this risks characterizing our entire conversation with her today as manipulating Kyouko into this.
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Also we've been ducking around this and saying 'seriously no I don't want to ask anything' for multiple posts now in this discussion alone. To say nothing of our prior interactions. To believe that much denial is part of some elaborate misdirection/manipulation requires some serious headfuckery.
 
Telling Kyoko to get over her defense mechanism will not make her get over it. She saw her entire family die. It's just going to make her ticked off at us.

Stop being a coward? Get on with her life? Her entire family died. One doesn't simply get over a truama like that. I can't find it ATM, but either Kaizuki or Godwinson wrote a character analysis of Kyoko, why she paints herself in a negative light, and why it's a defense mechanism.

It's not a good idea to tell someone who's been through this much trauma to get over it.

The Phoenixian said:
To be frank, I worry you're barreling head on into a brick wall here. I think approaching the topic like this risks characterizing our entire conversation with her today as manipulating Kyouko into this.
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I understand your trepidation, I really do. But, like I said before:
Norad the Borad said:
We've tried to tell her that we don't want her to owe anything. Kyoko pushed back every time.
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Aura makes a point h

AuraTwilight said:
We need to push the Mami thing now. Kyouko won't let us avoid doing so anymore.
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Adhoc vote count started by Norad the Borad on Jan 23, 2019 at 5:44 PM, finished with 149164 posts and 14 votes.
  • [X] There doesn't have to be a problem. I'm not gonna push you to do this as my "favour" or whatever, but frankly, with what I know? You and Mami can work things out when that day comes.
    [X] See, Mami responds poorly whenever you're brought up because up until I showed up, everyone in her life had eventually left her, or had been abusing her trust. She gets upset because she blames herself for not being able to help you, and for how poorly the two of you parted. Because even with you picking a horrible thing to outrage her over to get her to drive you away -- and no, I know that's part of what that argument was about -- she felt horrible for doing so.
    [X] That's how I know that you and Mami can rebuild your friendship. Because Mami never wanted it to end in the first place, and the only reason you wanted it to end was because you were trying to punish yourself.
    [X] You ever miss someone you've never met?
    -[X] *Deep breath, sigh* I remeber you being part of our? Their? My? magical girl group, yes you even managed to make up with Mami. On your own no less.
    -[X]"..."
    -[X] How do you think I felt when I woke up in that alley? no parents, no friends, no family. I didnt even have a name Kyouko. Just half a dozen girls I knew like family, and I knew were amazing
    -[X] I'm here because I miss you, I'm here because it hurts when you look at me like a stranger.
    -[X] You guys are literally all I have in the world, your my family, my friends, and the reason for me to even exist...
    -[X] I think it would be great. For everyone.
    [x] Wait until the great bubble debacle is over. Help as neccessary.
    [X] When you are alone again:
    -[X] So she's asking what she can do in return. Repeatedly. Heh, guess you're not the only one with a bleeding heart in the room, not that you didn't know.
    -[x] Can she let you punch her for making your girlfriend sad and lonely?
    --[X] ... Is that what she wanted to hear?
    -[X] The problem with having knowledge of private things is that you've taken their privacy away without consent or giving anything in return. You are uncomfortable with that.
    --[x] But you're even more uncomfortable with her defeatist attitude.
    ---[X] You know what she said and what she did. You know why she said and did what she did.
    ---[X] It was selfish and self-destructive, making Mami hurt to hurt herself. Get over it.
    -[x] The one thing you want from her is to stop punishing herself and at least make an effort to fix things with Mami, to stop being a coward and get on with the rest of her life.
    --[X] Fix what she can, and let go of what she cannot. You both know where their with Mami issues lie. This is your price. Does she still think it's too small?
    [x] There is no problem with you hanging out with the rest of my friends. Mami for one would jump for joy if you came back.
    [x] There doesn't have to be a problem. I'm not gonna push you to do this as my "favour" or whatever, but frankly, with what I know? I think you and Mami can hash things out.
    [X] Wait until the great bubble debacle is over. Help if neccessary.
    [X] When you are alone again:
    -[X] So she's asking what she can do in return. Repeatedly. Heh, guess you're not the only one with a bleeding heart in the room, not that you didn't know.
    -[X] Can you punch her for making your girlfriend sad and lonely?
    --[X] ... Is that what she wanted to hear?
    -[X] The problem with having knowledge of private things is that you've taken their privacy away without consent or giving anything in return. You are uncomfortable with that.
    --[X] You're even more uncomfortable with her defeatist attitude. Plough on.
    ---[X] You know what she said and what she did. You know why she said and did what she did.
    ---[X] It was selfish and self-destructive, making Mami hurt to hurt herself. Get over it.
    -[X] The one thing you want from her is to stop punishing herself, to stop being a coward and get on with the rest of her life.
    --[X] Fix what she can, and let go of what she cannot. You both know where their with Mami issues lie. This is your price. Does she still think it's too small?
    [X] Roll things back a bit, you're worried you may be being pushy and inconsiderate... again: Ask Kyouko if she's insistent because she feels obligated to return the favor, or if helping us is something wants to do. You don't want obligation, but you could accept Kyouko doing things because she wants to.
    -[X] Part of your problem accepting things from her thinking they're her obligation is that the things you could ask are also things you have no right to ask. Ever.
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Norad the Borad said:
Telling Kyoko to get over her defense mechanism will not make her get over it. She saw her entire family die. It's just going to make her ticked off at us.

Stop being a coward? Get on with her life? Her entire family died. One doesn't simply get over a truama like that. I can't find it ATM, but either Kaizuki or Godwinson wrote a character analysis of Kyoko, why she paints herself in a negative light, and why it's a defense mechanism.

It's not a good idea to tell someone who's been through this much trauma to get over it.
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We're not telling her to get over the Trauma, we're telling her to get over her stupid trumped up feud with Mami, we're just poking at the Trauma as a way of telling her that we know that her fight with Mami was fake and bullshit.

EDIT: And if that pisses her off? I am actually kind of okay with that?

I mean... I think that honestly, a knock down drag out fistfight with Kyouko could actually work out for the better in the long term. Not a serious 'trying to kill you' fight, but a 'venting pent up emotions by way of punching' fight. Like puking only with (hopefully) more bloody knuckles.
 
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Spectral Waltz said:
We're not telling her to get over the Trauma, we're telling her to get over her stupid trumped up feud with Mami, we're just poking at the Trauma as a way of telling her that we know that her fight with Mami was fake and bullshit.

EDIT: And if that pisses her off? I am actually kind of okay with that?

I mean... I think that honestly, a knock down drag out fistfight with Kyouko could actually work out for the better in the long term. Not a serious 'trying to kill you' fight, but a 'venting pent up emotions by way of punching' fight. Like puking only with (hopefully) more bloody knuckles.
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Except her fued with Mami is a punishment to herself for causing the death of her family. She blames herself for their deaths as a coping mechanism. Fighting Kyoko will not help. Kyoko will not take being told to get over the root of her Mami problem-- her family's death-- very well.

Kyoko is telling us what she wants. So let's give it to her, without hitting her truama buttons.
 
Norad the Borad said:
Except her fued with Mami is a punishment to herself for causing the death of her family. She blames herself for their deaths as a coping mechanism. Fighting Kyoko will not help. Kyoko will not take being told to get over the root of her Mami problem-- her family's death-- very well.

Kyoko is telling us what she wants. So let's give it to her, without hitting her truama buttons.
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She wants us to ask for something in return, if we ask for her to talk with Mami then there's no way of doing that without the Trauma buttons coming up. Better to have it all in the open.

I don't believe in telling people what they want to hear. I believe in being upfront and honest.
 
Torgamous said:
If her feud with Mami was that central to her trauma, she wouldn't be able to regularly get over it in the time between the start of a loop and Walpurgisnacht.
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This. I think we've sufficiently established that Sabrina isn't demanding anything from Kyouko, given how much we've emphasized that she doesn't owe us over just the last few updates. So yeah, let's just get what we want - Kyouko and Mami to have an earnest discussion - out in the open.
 
Ah, arguments. How I missed thee.

Anyway, I agree that Kyoko will get pissed if we keep dancing around this. However, I feel that Godwinson is pushing just a mite too hard. Therefore, I'll throw my hat in with

[X] Spectral Waltz

(Also, their vote explicitly mentions dealing with the bubbles.)
 
Godwinson said:
Dealing with the bubbles is expressly something we don't need to vote on, that's why it's X'd in for the list.
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Feels to me, though, that if we don't vote on that, Sabrina'll just... autopilot through it. I'm not sure. That counterpoint is weak and I know it.

Anyway, I was going to provide an argument on why I chose Waltz over yours, but looking back at the votes, they all seem either too pushy, or too sparse. Hell, Waltz is more pushy than you. Yeah.

Imma sleep on this. Until then, your vote is serviceable. I'll probably swap a few more times as new options come up.

[X] Godwinson
 
Norad the Borad said:
Telling Kyoko to get over her defense mechanism will not make her get over it. She saw her entire family die. It's just going to make her ticked off at us.

Stop being a coward? Get on with her life? Her entire family died. One doesn't simply get over a truama like that. I can't find it ATM, but either Kaizuki or Godwinson wrote a character analysis of Kyoko, why she paints herself in a negative light, and why it's a defense mechanism.

It's not a good idea to tell someone who's been through this much trauma to get over it.
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Mmm. Well, yes. I didn't quite reach the point where Sabrina clasps Kyouko's shoulders and rants at her about wasting her Madokami-given life, but it's pretty close.

The thing is. There are only two people who can confront her about this: herself and Sabrina.

I specifically designed this vote around a rude conversation akin to throwing punches at Kyouko, to serve as a counterpoint to previous votes and, as I said, because Kyouko imo responds to confrontation better than kindness.

Also, I don't believe it's a defense mechanism. Defense mechanisms are by definition created to reduce potentially harmful stimuli, and Kyouko throwing Mami out of her life looks specifically as a tool to increase her own anxiety and suffering, to punish herself.

I'm not proposing to tell her to get over her dad going crazy and killing his whole family, I'm proposing to tell her to get over her self-punishment. These issues are correlated, but not identical.

Look, I cannot into a long argument, which is a weak position to stand on, but here I stand anyway.

So I'm gonna leave you with a shitpost instead

[Q] Don't wait for the bubble debacle to be over.
[Q] Go over to Koko.
-[Q] Punch her, punch her in the face!
[Q] We're even now.
[Q] Oh, and also make up with Mumi, she's sad and won't give her hugs otherwise.
 
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Firnagzen said:
"Fucking hell," Kyouko mutters. "I... fine. What do you want? You want to help me? You have. What do you want from
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Firnagzen said:
scowl deepens. "So fucking what? I don't need to be a charity case for your warm fuzzies."
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Firnagzen said:
"Why me?" Kyouko asks quietly. Yuma shifts, quiet and hunched in on herself. Scared. "Why us? The squirt needs someone t' look out for her. I don't."

You shrug, looking out at the blurred world beyond the walls of the privacy field.

"Because I care," you say.

"No, I mean... why? How?" Kyouko says.
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Firnagzen said:
"Cut the flattery," Kyouko growls, looking
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Firnagzen said:
"I don't want charity."
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Firnagzen said:
"What do you even need in return, huh?"
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Firnagzen said:
"I have a home," Kyouko says quietly. She folds her arms, tilting her chin challengingly at you. "And I think there's a little bit of a problem with me 'hanging out with all your friends'."
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Firnagzen said:
Piss off with that challenge," Kyouko says. "Piss off with- I know what I deserve." She closes her eyes, and sighs. "Whatever. Fine. Gimme specifics. What do you want."
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Firnagzen said:
"Yeah, you're a regular saint," Kyouko grouses, patting her costume down and scowling even harder when she comes up empty. She hops to her feet and wanders over to the fridge, returning with a pair of popsicles, one of which she flips towards you. "What's your point?"
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Went back and re read our entire interaction more carefully. I picked out bits I thought were most relevant.

Norad the Borad said:
ZX, We've tried to tell her that we don't want her to owe anything. Kyoko pushed back every time.
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I wrote my vote around a central conceit. Namely...

She was extremely dismissive of our "your friendship/happiness" is what matters to me reasoning.

Which is interesting because that is what matters to us.

She's not having any better luck getting a handle on us than we are on her, probably because we're two incredibly different people.

Though reading the update again it looks like most of the votes we came up with are actually redundant since...

Firnagzen said:
"Yeah, you're a regular saint," Kyouko grouses, patting her costume down and scowling even harder when she comes up empty. She hops to her feet and wanders over to the fridge, returning with a pair of popsicles, one of which she flips towards you. "What's your point?"

"Simple," you say, catching the ice pop and pointing it at her for emphasis. She unwraps her own and takes a bite, unimpressed. "With everything I know about you, everything you've done, that place for 'people like you'? Is with the rest of my friends living instead of surviving."

Her eyes flicker towards you, anger sparking, but you barrel onwards.

"So, yeah!" you say, waving the ice pop at her. "That's what I want. You want to repay me? I don't want you to fight my enemies, or give me something, or anything for that. I want you to fight to live, not just survive. That's what I want as payment. Are you good for it, or what?"

Kyouko flips you the middle finger, and you raise your eyebrow at her.

"Piss off with that challenge," Kyouko says. "Piss off with- I know what I deserve." She closes her eyes, and sighs. "Whatever. Fine. Gimme specifics. What do you want."
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@Godwinson @Spectral Waltz I would like to encourage you two to read this section again, even if you don't change anything.

I feel like re treading the "what can she do for us" ground will not be helpful because...

She already outright agreed to try and make nice with our friends?

Looking at that my earlier vote and ideas are almost completely redundant as well. I think she wants... An action plan basically?
 
Spectral Waltz said:
Except 'make nice with my friends' and 'talk to Mami Tomoe and try to sort out your relationship issues with her' are two very different emotional beats.
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I thought about framing it as something she should take care of before meeting the rest of the group.

Since I presume we would like her to be able to at least be on speaking terms with Mami before introducing her to everyone else.

but now I'm kind of on the fence.

How do we want her to make up with Mami? Do we want to be there? Do we want anyone else there?

Homura? Sayaka... Yuma?
 
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Having got a semi-good night's sleep, and read through the last update and page or so of discussion...

I think that Godwinson's vote is the best vote available right now. However, it's not the best vote possible. Therefore, I will be modifying it, heavily, and taking elements from both Spectral Waltz and zxzx24.


[X] There doesn't have to be a problem. Speaking frankly, with what I know? You and Mami can work things out when that day comes.

Cut the "I'm not pushing this as my favor" bit. Others have stated that it could come across as manipulative, and I agree.

[X] See, Mami responds poorly whenever you're brought up because up until I showed up, everyone in her life had eventually left her, or had been abusing her trust. She gets upset because she blames herself for not being able to help you, and for how poorly the two of you parted. Because even with you picking a horrible thing to outrage her over to get her to drive you away -- and no, I know that's part of what that argument was about -- she felt horrible for doing so.

This bit is good.

-[X] The fact that I know this is a horrible breach of privacy. It makes me feel... uncomfortable.
--[X] But I'm even more uncomfortable with your defeatist attitude.

Borrowed the general gist of this bit from Spectral Waltz.

[X] I woke up in an alley knowing nothing about myself- not even a name- and almost everything about a half dozen girls. Including you. It feels like we've been friends since before we met. And it hurts me to see my friend putting herself through this. It hurts that Mami flinches when she hears your name, because of the guilt and abandonment. I want things to be better. I know they can be better.

And this is "inspired" by zxzx24.

[X] That's how I know that you and Mami can rebuild your friendship. Because Mami never wanted it to end in the first place, and the only reason you wanted it to end was because you were trying to punish yourself.

Okay then! That's my frankenvote. It's probably got a whole slew of problems, but I expect that I and the other participants in this thread will find them.
 
Shadowhisker said:
Having got a semi-good night's sleep, and read through the last update and page or so of discussion...

I think that Godwinson's vote is the best vote available right now. However, it's not the best vote possible. Therefore, I will be modifying it, heavily, and taking elements from both Spectral Waltz and zxzx24.


[X] There doesn't have to be a problem. Speaking frankly, with what I know? You and Mami can work things out when that day comes.

Cut the "I'm not pushing this as my favor" bit. Others have stated that it could come across as manipulative, and I agree.

[X] See, Mami responds poorly whenever you're brought up because up until I showed up, everyone in her life had eventually left her, or had been abusing her trust. She gets upset because she blames herself for not being able to help you, and for how poorly the two of you parted. Because even with you picking a horrible thing to outrage her over to get her to drive you away -- and no, I know that's part of what that argument was about -- she felt horrible for doing so.

This bit is good.

-[X] The fact that I know this is a horrible breach of privacy. It makes me feel... uncomfortable.
--[X] But I'm even more uncomfortable with your defeatist attitude.

Borrowed the general gist of this bit from Spectral Waltz.

[X] I woke up in an alley knowing nothing about myself- not even a name- and almost everything about a half dozen girls. Including you. It feels like we've been friends since before we met. And it hurts me to see my friend putting herself through this. It hurts that Mami flinches when she hears your name, because of the guilt and abandonment. I want things to be better. I know they can be better.

And this is "inspired" by zxzx24.

[X] That's how I know that you and Mami can rebuild your friendship. Because Mami never wanted it to end in the first place, and the only reason you wanted it to end was because you were trying to punish yourself.

Okay then! That's my frankenvote. It's probably got a whole slew of problems, but I expect that I and the other participants in this thread will find them.
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I'm having a very off day, and am in a breathtakingly foul mood, so I'm not going to dive into analysis here, for the sake of avoiding pointless (possibly undeserved) bile.

Instead, I will point out that we're not under privacy field, and shouldn't talk about our metaknowledge in the open like that.
 
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