This is not good! "Oh, she did it cuz she wants me to make up with Mami! I *TOLD* her she *incoherent kyouko rage*"

Hmm. I think we can get away with it, to be honest. Getting Kyouko back on board before Walpurgisnacht should be a high level goal of ours, and a "saved your church" level favor is something I think Kyouko would be willing to suffer through a meeting with Mami for.

If we don't make progress on this now, when will we?
 
Random thought

Kyouko does not like charity, but I doubt springing 'we want you to help fight WPN' would be good. So I just pictured this:

Sabrina: It's not like I'm expecting you to help fight WPN
Kyouko: Why the hell not? I'm likely the best fighter you know!
Sabrina: I did'nt want to..
Kyouko: I'll be there, don't you worry
Sabrina: .. .. .... ok
 
Hmm. I think we can get away with it, to be honest. Getting Kyouko back on board before Walpurgisnacht should be a high level goal of ours, and a "saved your church" level favor is something I think Kyouko would be willing to suffer through a meeting with Mami for.

If we don't make progress on this now, when will we?

I'm gonna favor the oblique approach. Let's bring up what she's doing with her life and what she wants to be doing with it. You've seen what I've written, tell me what you think her response is.
 
@DB_Explorer

I'm not going to ask Kyouko to risk her life fighting a giant killer witch because we happened to spend five minutes with our rich friend on the phone.

That's grossly disproportionate as a return favor.

@Kaizuki

I do think that asking Kyouko what she thinks about the future is a good start. We can build on our earlier offers to use hackerguca to get them properly registered in the system so Yuma can go to school and Kyouko can get a bank account and pay taxes, too.

The whole "immortality" thing seems like a huge non-sequitur, and I think it'll have a (minor) negative effect on social. her_brain_damage_is_acting_up_again.jpg, basically.

I strongly advise that we "use up" the favor from Kyouko in this meeting, even if we don't use it on a Mami meeting. Kyouko hates leaving an obligation like that hanging, and the whole point of this meeting was in large part to de-escalate that before it became an issue, so "banking it for later" is a no-go.

We might be able to use the favor to get her to accept a Clear Seed, if you're strongly against a Mami meeting.

Also, Yuma/Nagisa playdate needs to happen.

E: Edited vote.

[x] Meet with Kyouko and Yuma.
-[x] Aquire food, cleanse, be friendly.
-[x] Ask if they've got any future plans. Would Yuma be interested in going to school?
-[x] Ask Yuma if she wants to meet a friend of ours close to her age, Nagisa.
-[x] Find an excuse to have a private conversation with Kyouko to discuss some heavy stuff away from Yuma.

[x] Privately with Kyouko:
-[x] Discuss the situation with the Nakano Corporation.
-[x] Make it clear that we don't expect her to "owe" us for our help.
--[x] If she insists, ask if she'd be willing to meet with Mami at some point as her favor to us.
---[x] If she strongly refuses, de-escalate and apologize. Ask if she'd accept taking a Clear Seed from us as her favor to us instead.
 
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Can I get a more specific vote, here? I believe someone requested the meeting with something in mind, beyond Kyouko's own thoughts. :V
And unfortunately, my intention for that thing was the metabomb and I really thought we'd have had a lot more conversation about it by now. >_<

*internal screaming*

*breathes, collects self*

You know... given Madoka's track record with Kyouko, I get the feeling she'd be much better at this than us. More than a little tempted to spend the favor just on having those two meeting. More likely however, I'd kinda like to spend it on the metabomb. Or not spend it. Kyouko can judge.

It kinda fits anyways: We got that favor from listening to her put herself out there on something she cared about deeply, doing a few things we would have done anyways, and making an introduction, then those trivial things on our part adding up to something that rocked her world. Fitting then that she should do something easy for her that would rock ours, especially if that just involves listening to us or making an introduction.

I'm gonna favor the oblique approach. Let's bring up what she's doing with her life and what she wants to be doing with it. You've seen what I've written, tell me what you think her response is.
[X] Ask if she's ever thought about the future.
-[X] If Kyouko does a Kyouko: tell her you aren't here to reform her. You're going to meet people who just want to do nothing all day and you're not going to make them do things either.
-[X] Work in casually dropping the fact that magical girls are technically immortal as long as they aren't killed and actually think to cancel their ageing.

I wish I had a better read on Kyouko because, honestly, this feels like something that she'd take as fucking around and trying to manipulate her.

All things considered, if anything, I get the impression from our conversations with Kyouko --- from the drug dealer comments and grief heroin comments to "did Mami put you up to this" --- that this whole time she's been thinking we're trying to rope her into something, but can't tell what the con is.

Which makes me look back and reread all the times she's "not being tsundere" as her genuinely thinking we're a threat, and are slowly succeeding in getting our manipulative hooks in.

And now she trusted us and we have something over her. Something big. Something that, if she's suspicious enough, the presumed crony we bought off with infinite cleansing could end at any time.

So that puts me in the mind of first asking if she's worried about being conned into something, and using the metabomb to solve that problem.

Not in the mindset to vote format it right now, but hell might as well type it out as I have in my mind...

Article:
If Kyouko feels she owes you, well this all happened because she bared her heart to you, you did some trivial stuff, and accidentally rocked her world as a result.

So you'd like to talk to her about one of the things that terrifies you most of anything in the world, just ask her to listen and talk until you're done and not leave out of hand, and she can judge afterwards if the trade was equal.

She and Yuma deserve to know this anyways.

[Insert Privacy sphere here]

You're guess Kyouko is wondering what you actually want out of all this. What your angle is.

So... fuck it.

What you want is to fulfill what you guess is your reason for existing, you want everyone to be happy, but mostly you want the first and foremost people you ever knew about to meet and be friends. Meeting for the first time and reuniting both.

But you don't have the right to demand that. You don't have the right to manipulate or cajole it into happening. No one does. But she's part of it, and she deserves to know.

You woke up, dying in an alley, with no memories of your past. Instead you had a great deal of knowledge about the world of magical girls, it's history, and one month of its future, as if learned through multiple versions of a tale of five magical girls in Mitakihara, the people around them, and some important moments from their pasts. Including her and Mami.

This means that something almost certainly made you that way, but frankly you're pretty damn sure it's benevolent, and largely irrelevant besides.

You'd love to flat out tell everything. But you have to keep secrets. Some are important to people and their safety. Some would just kill people.

Some would be enough that Kyubey would happily manipulate everyone into murdering each other for. He's half the reason you're so afraid of this in the first place.

(Continue from here, still needs to be written and planned)
 
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If we have to broach the Mami subject with Kyouko, I'd say keep Homu's advice in mind, be honests, and let Kyouko know we'd love for her and Mami to work out their differences (really, for really smart girls, they can be pretty dumb :V ), but we know friendship doesn't work like that, it can't be forced from outside, it needs to come from inside. Though I guess she could give Mami a chance as a favour to us. :thonk:

Regarding the Metabomb, I half jokingly said at some point we could ask Kyouko for her friendship in return for our help with the Church issue. It was half joking, because, well, we've told all of Sabrina's friends the Metabomb.

Friend --> Metabomb.
If Koko --> Friend.
Koko --> Metabomb.

Though it's still half joking. We don't need an excuse like this to declare Kyouko our friend or just metabomb her. :p

If we go all the way, though, then we should also comment we're worried about Yuma's future. Even if just to put it out there.

I don't know much what else to do with Kyouko, besides being irreverently honest and well meaning and bulldozing through any tsundereness because yeah, we actually want to help.

With Kyouko, I think we can take so an extreme version of that approach, such that it would be really dumb, social suicide with anyone else. :p
 
-[x] Ask Yuma if she wants to meet a friend of ours close to her age, Nagisa.

-[x] Make it clear that we don't expect her to "owe" us for our help.
--[x] If she insists, ask if she'd be willing to meet with Mami at some point as her favor to us.
---[x] If she strongly refuses, de-escalate and apologize. Ask if she'd accept taking a Clear Seed from us as her favor to us instead.

Of Redshirt's vote, these are the bits I'm not too sold on. I remember we had a discussion on the merits of introducing Yuma to Nagisa, and decided against it. The reasoning was that right now, being a magical girl is Yuma's life, and giving her a friend she has to hide that from isn't a good idea. It wouldn't be healthy.

As for the Serious Talk with Kyoko, neither this nor Kaizuki's vote are really jumping out at me. Redshirt raised a good point about not using our favour to get Kyoko on board, and that made me realize something.

If Kyoko learns about WPN and that favour's still hanging above her head, I'm afraid she might take it upon herself to help us out as a way to repay that favour. And if she makes up her mind that this is how she'll pay us back, any attempt at finding a more reasonable thing for her to do would be brushed off as us us trying to... I'm not sure what the word would be, but like we're trying to play it down? Like we're trying to find something menial and unimportant for her to do.

Now, I still want Kyoko to help us against WPN, but it really has to be of her own free will and not because she feels like she owes us. Now that that's said, back to the subject of talking with Kyoko. I really don't want to use that favour to have her talk to Mami. That's the kind of thing that has to be done by Kyoko because she wants to make up with Mami, and even mentioning it while she stills owes us a favour is gonna pressure her to do so.

So long story short... I don't quite know what to do, but neither Redshirt's vote nor Kaizuki's seem like good ideas. Maybe if we could think of something big for her to do, but I can't think of anything yet... maybe ask her to watch out for Sayaka? Have we done that yet? Her relationship with Sayaka is the only thing I can think of that she could use to help us.

Actually, I think there might be some merit to that idea... Imma need some time to think of how to actually, you know, do that.
 
Hmm. @Lord Chungus , how about using the favor to get Kyouko to take a Clear Seed?
That's seems like the sort of thing that makes sense to us, but Kyoko wouldn't buy. We know we want what's best for her, but Kyoko's still a bit iffy on trusting that we're acting in her best interest and not serving some mysterious goal. If we use this as a favour, Kyoko will probably either'

A) Accept that we really just want what's best for her. I don't have to say, this is kinda unlikely. She could also;
B) Take this as proof that we're hiding something from her. After all, we could use this for anything and we're just making her take a clear seed? She'll probably accept, but I'm not sure she'd use it, and she'll probably trust us eve less.
 
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Hmmm. If that's the case, then... what can Kyouko actually help us with? It'd be easiest to sell something as a favor to us if it actually is a favor to us, after all.

I wouldn't want to ask her to help Sayaka for free, since that whole arrangement is in large part a means to funnel money to Kyouko by us...

Wait. Could we ask Kyouko to introduce us to the other magical girls in Kasamino and the surrounding area as our favor? Hitomi Lina's group might be in play in PMAS. She's pretty antisocial but I don't get the impression she's actively enemies with any of them, and more introductions are always helpful.
 
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We could push Kyouko and Mami to actually start talking to each other again. It doesn't have to be a favor that directly benefits us.
 
Hmm. @Lord Chungus , how about using the favor to get Kyouko to take a Clear Seed?
"As your favor to me, let me help you more."

I think this would require us to explain that Sabrina has a literally inhuman mindset regarding helping people, and that asking her not to do that is like asking Kyoko to waste food.
That's the kind of thing that has to be done by Kyoko because she wants to make up with Mami,
The thing about Kyoko is that even if she does want to make up with Mami, she won't because tsundere. So if she were actually ready to make up, I think pushing her would help.
 
Hmmm. If that's the case, then... what can Kyouko actually help us with? It'd be easiest to sell something as a favor to us if it actually is a favor to us, after all.

I wouldn't want to ask her to help Sayaka for free, since that whole arrangement is in large part a means to funnel money to Kyouko by us...

The idea I'm currently working on is asking her to look out for Sayaka. Sort of like we asked Sayaka to do for Kyoko, now that I think about it.

Despite how stable Sayaka is right now, she's still Sayaka. If something happens that gets her spiraling, or even if Sayaka just Sayakas, Kyoko's in a position where she can help. Granted, we are too, but lot's of Sayaka's feelings of inadequacy come from us. Even if she tells us or we notice, we may not be in the best position to help her, and asking Kyoko to help Sayaka with that sort of thing would be useful

And that's the important part. It would be useful. This is a way for Kyoko to help us, to do something that she would accept we want, but can't do ourselves. I'll have to think a bit more about the specifics (do we ask her to be proactive, or responsive, or ???) but I think this is a way for Kyoko to help us.

We could push Kyouko and Mami to actually start talking to each other again. It doesn't have to be a favor that directly benefits us.

As I sort-of said before, I don't think using this favour to make Kyoko make up with Mami is a good idea. Kyoko probably isn't ready, I don't think Mami is entirety ready, and "your girlfriend told me to like you" isn't really the best way to reignite a relationship.

Imagine if we do this, and Kyoko actually makes up with Mami, and everything's going well. Then Mami finds out (maybe mentioned by Kyoko or Yuma, maybe told by Kyubey) that Kyoko didn't want to make up with Mami; she was coerced into doing it. That would be a Very Bad Thing. Now, I'm less against pushing Kyoko to make up once she doesn't feel she has to do what we say, but right now I think it would be a mistake.
 
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Hitomi Lina's group might be in play in PMAS.
This is the first I'm hearing of them, and Mami did say that Kasamino only has one person.

We could ask if she knows anyone else to introduce us to, but I'm pretty sure she won't.
and "your girlfriend told me to like you" isn't really the best way to reignite a relationship.
If we do this, it's going to be "I lock you two in a room together and you have to talk", not "I am telling you the results of the talk".
 
I do generally trust @Muramasa 's judgement, especially where Kyouko is involved, so if he also thinks we could use the favor to try and get Kyouko and Mami to talk, that increases my confidence in it as a course of action.

We'd need to tread pretty carefully though. Taking some of Onmur's suggestions into account...

[ ] Meet with Kyouko and Yuma.
-[ ] Aquire food, cleanse, just be friendly and chat.
--[ ] Ask about how training went without us there. Any advice on how to help Sayaka grow?
-[ ] Ask if they've got any future plans. Would Yuma be interested in going to school?
-[ ] Find an excuse to have a private conversation with Kyouko to discuss some heavy stuff away from Yuma.

[ ] Privately with Kyouko:
-[ ] Discuss the situation with the Nakano Corporation.
-[ ] Make it clear that we don't expect her to "owe" us for our help.
--[ ] If she insists, ask if she'd be willing to consider giving Mami a chance at some point in the future.
---[ ] Be up front about your motivations - Mami didn't put you up to this, but you saw how happy she was reuniting with other former friends.
---[ ] You aren't going to insist on it - you know that reconciliation doesn't work if it's pushed from outside. But it is something you'd love to see happen.

Thoughts?

As a side note, I think people are drastically overestimating the difficulty of getting Kyouko and Mami to reconcile. Fucking "Cannot Into Social" Homura managed it in the Tetris timeline.
 
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I don't even really want to ask it as a favor. And I dislike the context of 'giving Mami a chance' as if what happened that caused the split between her and Kyouko was directly Mami's fault.

[] You're not asking it as a favor. It's just something you'd like to see. Kyouko and Mami talking, trying to work through their differences. Trying to patch things up, little by little.
 
This is the first I'm hearing of them, and Mami did say that Kasamino only has one person.

We could ask if she knows anyone else to introduce us to, but I'm pretty sure she won't.

If we do this, it's going to be "I lock you two in a room together and you have to talk", not "I am telling you the results of the talk".
We won't be telling Kyoko "make up with Mami," but when you owe someone and they say "hey, I don't want to force, you, but maaaaybe could you think of making up with my girlfriend?" the natural assumption is that she's using that favour to have you make up with said girlfriend.

We may not mean it like that, and we'll certainly emphasize that, but this is the first "selfish" thing we're doing and Kyoko's gonna jump on it.

Because whatever we say, we do want Kyoko to make up with Mami, even if that's not we're gonna ask for. Even if we're being roundabout, our goal is to have Kyoko and Mami make up and it's foolish to assume that Kyoko won't realize that.


That aside, my biggest concern is that when Mami finds out Kyoko only talked to her because of a favour, she'll assume Kyoko didn't want to make up with her and only did it as a favour, and then we've lost progress on so many things.

If we get Kyoko to do it when she doesn't owe us, then there's no doubt that Kyoko did this of her own accord, but as long as Kyubey can say "Kyoko Sakura owed Sabrina a favour and Sabrina asked her to talk to you," I don't think this is a good idea.


I don't even really want to ask it as a favor. And I dislike the context of 'giving Mami a chance' as if what happened that caused the split between her and Kyouko was directly Mami's fault.

[] You're not asking it as a favor. It's just something you'd like to see. Kyouko and Mami talking, trying to work through their differences. Trying to patch things up, little by little.

I'd be on board with this, but only once Kyoko doesn't feel she owes us a favour. Kyoko and Mami can reconcile and I think it would be good for both of them, but it can wait for a few days. It's good, but ai don't think now is the right time.
 
I think this would require us to explain that Sabrina has a literally inhuman mindset regarding helping people, and that asking her not to do that is like asking Kyoko to waste food.
Brina, Witch of HALPIN. She derives sustenance from HALPIN others.

As I sort-of said before, I don't think using this favour to make Kyoko make up with Mami is a good idea. Kyoko probably isn't ready, I don't think Mami is entirety ready, and "your girlfriend told me to like you" isn't really the best way to reignite a relationship.

Imagine if we do this, and Kyoko actually makes up with Mami, and everything's going well. Then Mami finds out (maybe mentioned by Kyoko or Yuma, maybe told by Kyubey) that Kyoko didn't want to make up with Mami; she was coerced into doing it. That would be a Very Bad Thing. Now, I'm less against pushing Kyoko to make up once she doesn't feel she has to do what we say, but right now I think it would be a mistake.
That aside, my biggest concern is that when Mami finds out Kyoko only talked to her because of a favour, she'll assume Kyoko didn't want to make up with her and only did it as a favour, and then we've lost progress on so many things.
We can ask Kyouko to talk with Mami, and leave it at that.

We wouldn't hide this from Mami (we have, in fact, talked with Mami about helping Kyouko and her reconcile*), we can openly and honestly say we used a favor to have Kyouko talk with Mami. And with Kyouko, we should be entirely honest:

We would love for Kyouko and Mami to be friends again (sue us), but we know friendship isn't something that can be coerced. We don't ask Kyouko to make up with Mami, but to just talk, and if something comes from that, from them, then good. If they talk and still don't want to have anything to do with each other, that's that.

Kyouko can then talk with Mami, go away, never meet her again, and she wouldn't owe us anything. The favour would be just to have that talk.

*Quote found.
"She knew... she knows it, too," you say. "She still cares, you know. I believe there's still a chance for reconciliation."

Her breath hitches.

You fall silent, letting her absorb that. She pushes away a little, just enough so that she can stare up at you. "Do- do you think so?" she asks, voice wavering.

"I think so," you say. "And I'm going to do everything I can to make it happen. If you want, Mami?"

She nods jerkily, burying her face in your chest once again. She takes a minute to recover her composure. You dig a wet tissue out of your bag, wiping her face gently, and she smiles at you. "There," you whisper.
 
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[:V] "Needless to say, if you hurt my GF, Yuma's gonna need to go live with her grandparents after I'm done with you."
 
We can ask Kyouko to talk with Mami, and leave it at that.

We wouldn't hide this from Mami (we have, in fact, talked with Mami about helping Kyouko and her reconcile*), we can openly and honestly say we used a favor to have Kyouko talk with Mami. And with Kyouko, we should be entirely honest:

We would love for Kyouko and Mami to be friends again (sue us), but we know friendship isn't something that can be coerced. We don't ask Kyouko to make up with Mami, but to just talk, and if something comes from that, from them, then good. If they talk and still don't want to have anything to do with each other, that's that.

Kyouko can then talk with Mami, go away, never meet her again, and she wouldn't owe us anything. The favour would be just to have that talk.

*Quote found.


A large part of my problem with that idea is that Mami, at the end of the day, is incredibly insecure and lonely. If Kyoko comes back of her own accord (enticed by us, but ultimately because she wants to) then Mami's mental health gets a boost. On the other hand, if we use a favour to get Kyoko to talk to Mami, then Kyoko didn't do this because she wanted to and Mami's self-esteem drops a bit more.

Even if they make up and become friends again, it's still going to be coloured (at least on Mami's end) by the fact that, to her, Kyoko never wanted to make up. If she wanted to, why not do it? No, she was forced to, and even if the relationship works out that bit's going to be a stain on the reccord.

I think this part of your post is what I find the most issue with.

We wouldn't hide this from Mami (we have, in fact, talked with Mami about helping Kyouko and her reconcile*), we can openly and honestly say we used a favor to have Kyouko talk with Mami.

Asking Kyoko to talk and using a favour to make her talk are different, and Mami especially is going to see them as such. I am 100% for pushing Kyoko to talk with Mami, but later. Not now.

As @Redshirt Army said, getting them to reconcile isn't impossible, not at all. We don't need to use a favour for this, especially when doing so could mess it up.

Also, no one's mentioned my idea to use the favour to have Kyoko watch out for Sayaka. I'm gonna write up a vote for it once I'm back at my laptop in a few hours, so imput is appreciated.
 
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