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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Thinking about it further (and posting during class because I accidentally into babby's first C++ and we haven't covered anything I don't already know yet), it shouldn't be a question of either or, should it? There are Witches out there whose original selves no longer have any connections to the living world. We can ask around as to who a given seed was during life (Kyubey maybe, haven't checked how that lines up with OpSec), and if they have nobody to return to, I think we should absolutely attempt Chimerism as a stepping stone to true Dewitching. It may be reincarnation over resurrection, but it's something we can do now, it's something that will give us insights into the nature of souls and Witches, and we should still be giving these girls a new lease on life (and more importantly, abolishing their constant suffering).
 
Filraen said:
1. Now I want to have Niko and Hijiri to cooperate. Being the closest pair magical girls we know* and their soul gems don't get confused on which body to animate, I'm sure that comparing their connection (how are they equal, how are they different) may give some big hint on the research on how a soul gem controls a body.

* in terms on how similar are one to each other, even more than regular equal twins
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I think you're overlooking an even more relevant example, that being the Two-Girls-One-Soulgem refugee who arrived in town not long ago.

If anyone can give insight into connecting souls to arbitrary bodies or have magic for connecting souls to bodies, it's her.
 
Onmur said:
Though really, we can't say anything is impossible until we get a willing contractee literally wishing for something and that something fails, I guess. Hypothetically or less than hypothetically.
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That's a perfectly reasonable standard, and one that Sabrina broke the first time she cleansed a gem without putting it in someone else's.
Onmur said:
"What is a meguca?"

A) A miserable little pile of secrets.
B) A despairing chibi pile of grief.
C) something to be hugged.
D) I must go.
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E) For saving.
 
The big problem with dewitching is that the Witch has withdrawn into her suffering and cut off contact with the outside world. Normally Sabrina would be able to just blow away their karmic balance and bring things back to an even keel, but the Witch has metaphysically refused to accept anything from the outside world, including help, and is actively resisting treatment and digging herself deeper whenever she has a chance.

Mami's power is founded on a wish to be "tied to life". She has a direct conceptual counter to this withdrawal: She can bind a Witch back to the outside world in exactly the same way she did for herself when she made her Wish. It'd be past simple; it's practically what her wish was made for, the same way Kirika's antimagic was intended to be a sign to Oriko.

(this is, by the way, one of the things I'd propose bringing up in the hypothetical "mami gets witchbombed badly" scenario - I'd guess that Mami's wish aligns reasonably well with her general outlook on life, evidenced by the severity of the guilt she feels about feeling like she's hurt her kouhais. explicitly making this observation and pointing out that her power is conceptually aligned with fixing the situation would probably be useful.)
 
So Dewitching. The thing we've been procrastinating on for literal years.

We need to work that to all hell.

Now, we're not going to solve it just by talking about it. We need to actually, seriously experiment IC. Closer to science than SCIENCE.

Now, we have made progress with clear seeds. That's good. We need to work on rehabilitating those more, of course, but we're on the right track.

Do we have any confirmation that a Clear Seed will not/cannot interface with a fresh corpse? Obviously, we probably can't use dead bodies for all these girls (although...Ono might be able to make them look like themselves...), but knowing if a body besides their original can sync up would be a great start and we've got a perfect body sitting in Homu's hammerspace right now.

If they don't sync up naturally, we will need to find a way to make them sync up. Mami "Connections" Tomoe might be able to help with that, but...uhh...Witchbomb. Maybe we can just convince her Witches are also for Saving?

Once we've got them linking to A body, then we can look into making custom models for them.

We could also go online and ask around--see if anyone reputable has been doing research.
 
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I still think the Witch Girl research tree would majorly help with our Dewitching goal, regardless if its True or Sorceresses. Sure, Kazumi XIII is the only one canonically who partially succeeded & only tried once, but that already is a major starting basis.

Plus, we don't need to fixate on fundamentally reverting them to normal Magical Girls, merely mentally stable individuals who have bodies again. Thus, while Corpsejacking is worth studying, we should be prepared to create Puppet-type Witch Girls (designed like Meguca bodies) in the case Clear Seeds & human bodies result in Shenanigans.

I don't really know what else to do to convince people that we should pursues the Witch Girl path.
 
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Kkutlord said:
I still think the Witch Girl research tree would majorly help with our Dewitching goal, regardless if its True or Sorceresses. Sure, Kazumi XIII is the only one canonically who partially succeeded & only tried once, but that already is a major starting basis.

Plus, we don't need to fixate on fundamentally reverting them to normal Magical Girls, merely mentally stable individuals who have bodies again. Thus, while Corpsejacking is worth studying, we should be prepared to create Puppet-type Witch Girls (designed like Meguca bodies) in the case Clear Seeds & human bodies result in Shenanigans.

I don't really know what else to do to convince people that we should pursues the Witch Girl path.
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I'm not terribly opposed, but the amount of research needed to figure out how to make an artificial body that's compatible with Meguca/Witches is greater than the amount needed to determine if they can borrow a corpse...and we never have enough time and motivation to actually get research done.

Artificial bodies can definitely wait until we see about getting one up, sane, and talking in...pretty much any condition, really.
 
My reasoning behind Witch Girl bodies would be that, since they're a Clear/Grief Seed, they'll presumably be easier to synchronize. Additionally, that we could provide them a body that truly feels like them- Since it is (close enough to) their body.

Basically, it might be easier to construct a body pulling from their emotions, rather than trying to intelligibly recall & generate their base human body. I'm not really sure if this would all work, but that's my reason.

Plus, I really, really want Sabrina to have a valid excuse for engineering Kazumi XIII's existence. My signature rather aptly explains her, but this is Sabrina we're talking about. She can find a way to get Kazumi XIII existing anyways.
 
Higure said:
So Dewitching. The thing we've been procrastinating on for literal years.

We need to work that to all hell.

Now, we're not going to solve it just by talking about it. We need to actually, seriously experiment IC. Closer to science than SCIENCE.

Now, we have made progress with clear seeds. That's good. We need to work on rehabilitating those more, of course, but we're on the right track.

Do we have any confirmation that a Clear Seed will not/cannot interface with a fresh corpse? Obviously, we probably can't use dead bodies for all these girls (although...Ono might be able to make them look like themselves...), but knowing if a body besides their original can sync up would be a great start and we've got a perfect body sitting in Homu's hammerspace right now.

If they don't sync up naturally, we will need to find a way to make them sync up. Mami "Connections" Tomoe might be able to help with that, but...uhh...Witchbomb. Maybe we can just convince her Witches are also for Saving?

Once we've got them linking to A body, then we can look into making custom models for them.

We could also go online and ask around--see if anyone reputable has been doing research.
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I kinda want to choose a moment IC to ask Homura for an eight-hour timestop and just Hope the shit out of a Clear Seed. Just wanna see whether something happens to it ( her? ) if we get to the capacity limit.
 
Higure said:
Do we have any confirmation that a Clear Seed will not/cannot interface with a fresh corpse? Obviously, we probably can't use dead bodies for all these girls (although...Ono might be able to make them look like themselves...), but knowing if a body besides their original can sync up would be a great start and we've got a perfect body sitting in Homu's hammerspace right now.
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Higure said:
I'm not terribly opposed, but the amount of research needed to figure out how to make an artificial body that's compatible with Meguca/Witches is greater than the amount needed to determine if they can borrow a corpse...and we never have enough time and motivation to actually get research done.

Artificial bodies can definitely wait until we see about getting one up, sane, and talking in...pretty much any condition, really.
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I'm not sure what distinction you're making with 'artifical bodies', here; Sayaka can use Umika's magic to get an impression of what the original body looked like and pass it on to Niko, who can construct a 100% bonafide flesh-and-blood human body given the appropriate materials (which are pretty goddamn flexible, given molecular reconstruction).

Kkutlord said:
Plus, we don't need to fixate on fundamentally reverting them to normal Magical Girls, merely mentally stable individuals who have bodies again. Thus, while Corpsejacking is worth studying, we should be prepared to create Puppet-type Witch Girls (designed like Meguca bodies) in the case Clear Seeds & human bodies result in Shenanigans.
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Are we on the same page here? I think we're on the same page here, just using different terminology. :V
 
Higure said:
I'm not terribly opposed, but the amount of research needed to figure out how to make an artificial body that's compatible with Meguca/Witches is greater than the amount needed to determine if they can borrow a corpse...and we never have enough time and motivation to actually get research done.

Artificial bodies can definitely wait until we see about getting one up, sane, and talking in...pretty much any condition, really.
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I'll point out that, as far as artificial bodies go, we're already making good progress:

We know we can make grief- and enchanted grief-chibis that we can control, and we know that Aurora will interact with nearby enchanted grief and has a minor degree of control over it (in the form of glomming onto and wrapping a sphere around itself, but that's enough to demonstrate control). At present, there are two possible steps forward on that line of inquiry: either seeing if we can lend control of our chibi to someone, or trying to expand the range of what she can do with glommed grief.

(And in the second case, there are a multiple possible sub-routes: either forming something from enchanted grief and seeing if Aurora can incorporate it, or feeding in powerful emotions relating to the senses and seeing if she tries to follow along, for two.)


Ultimately, though in this sort of case I'd much rather take another alternative, say ask Niko's help in that area, than deal with other people's bodies. Even if they're not using it it just... seems kinda skeevy if they're still alive. Bodily autonomy and all that.
 
Always Happening: Yeah, I think so, I just wasn't considering Umika's powers. Basically I was working off the notion of Sabrina having to solo-create the body, and thus letting the Seed shape their Witch Girl body would be easier than brute-forcing a copy of their original body.
 
The Phoenixian said:
I'll point out that, as far as artificial bodies go, we're already making good progress:

We know we can make grief- and enchanted grief-chibis that we can control, and we know that Aurora will interact with nearby enchanted grief and has a minor degree of control over it (in the form of glomming onto and wrapping a sphere around itself, but that's enough to demonstrate control). At present, there are two possible steps forward on that line of inquiry: either seeing if we can lend control of our chibi to someone, or trying to expand the range of what she can do with glommed grief.

(And in the second case, there are a multiple possible sub-routes: either forming something from enchanted grief and seeing if Aurora can incorporate it, or feeding in powerful emotions relating to the senses and seeing if she tries to follow along, for two.)


Ultimately, though in this sort of case I'd much rather take another alternative, say ask Niko's help in that area, than deal with other people's bodies. Even if they're not using it it just... seems kinda skeevy if they're still alive. Bodily autonomy and all that.
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That's great, and I fully support making proper vessels for them, but I could not care less about skeevyness if it means we can move up the timetable on achieving communication (for the sake of researching their mental states) and determining if they still are able to handle wearing a human body.
 
Shadowhisker said:
Because I think a lot of people here aren't going to be able to accept the very concept of death, let alone let alone our super-special best friend (A position both Mami and Homura qualify for) biting it. I certainly wouldn't.

Hell, the entire point of us pursuing dewitching is that we do not accept this. Sabrina can't bear the thought of anyone dying, even someone like Rionah. Being condemned to witchhood is something even worse.
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Sadly we don't know if it's possible or impossible, so I'd be ok with being a long-time low-priority project because I don't want Sabrina to get obsessed with something impossible. I'm perfectly ok with aceepting death as final for people close to Sabrina, even Mami (specially because if Mami died is because we fucked up spectacularly already).

Which ties with my main problem with Kaizuki's vote: the wording pushes the point so much it turns Mami into Sabrina's living emotional crutch, meaning that Sarina becomes the kind of character who needs a living emotional crutch. So if/when Mami dies, Sabrina Dedoleres.
 
Sabrina probably could pull off Doppels and not Witchout, though... Doppel!Dedoleres could probably uniquely manage prolonged coherence and that would still be super bad.
 
To everyone talking about impossibilities:
  1. We are using Magic, which is all about looking at the impossible and doing it anyway.
  2. We are a Happy Meguca.
  3. One of our mothers is a goddess.
  4. "Fix Everything"
  5. We have managed to get by with being a kindhearted idealist in the PMMM setting.
  6. We regularly hug Homura, and she's okay with that.
  7. We use literal Grief to bring Hope in a setting with contradictory thematic principles.
  8. Our purpose here is to break the system and defy the setting, and one of the core themes here is struggling against the inevitable and failing.
Do not speak of impossibilities unless it is to deny them.
 
Higure said:
Do not speak of impossibilities unless it is to deny them.
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To quote someone I can't recall because I forgot to note it down

Unknown said:
QB explicitly said that only emotional beings have the potential for magic. What he means with that is that only emotional beings can defy entropy and save the universe since otherwise he wouldn't be giving them the possibility for magic in the first place.

The boiled down essence of these bits of info is that humans can and will break the laws of the universe when their magical potential is unlocked.

Breaking the laws of physics, FUCK. I know on this page that kind of phrasing gets tossed around easily, but god-dammit, imagine and think for a second. On these laws the fabric of the universe has been built. These are the kind of rules that make sure that when you empty a glass of water downwards it will go downwards and not Strawberry Glue. You get where I'm going with this? This shit is FUNDAMENTAL, existentially needed for the universe and we fuck it six ways till Easter. It's like Spiral Power all over again.

When you can crack that kind of rule then anything is possible. Quite literally. Such as making techno music taste like chicken. I bet if someone wished for it it would happen. And work out.
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