[JK] Demand better manners
-[JK] In Latin.
[Q] Demand better manners.
-[Q] From yourself.
--[Q] Fall to your knees. Before Mami, not before Riona.
---[Q] Ask the Goddess, the Devil, and your personal Goddess of War and Cakes for strength dealing with rude meguca.
----[Q] Remind yourself you're doing this for hugs.
-----[Q] Hug Mami. Use Mamihugs as a wall with which to shrug off any rudeness.
------[Q] Muse about how, when it came to meeting a new guca, Mami quickly became the one with the pants in the relationship, while you're wearing the skirt.
 
Um. I'm having trouble seeing if it matters? Whether or not Kyubey thinks Mami knows the witchbomb, he knows it'd worsen his relationship with Sabrina to bring it up. In one case it might cause Mami to witch out, in the other it might not. Either way I don't see any actual benefit for the Incubators, as "spite" is not a motive for them.

Keep in mind that we're trying to stop Megucas from ever turning into witches, an outcome very much not beneficial to Kyubey. We are his enemy, and he needs ways to hurt us.

If he's able to use the witchbomb to make Mami witch out, (possibly by cutting her off from us on telepathy, making sure she doesn't have ways to cleanse, etc,) then that hurts us, both emotionally and diplomatically.

Keep in mind that the only was he has to hurt us is by turning powerful Megucas against us and putting us in such a deep grief spiral that we won't cleanse, and the best way to do the latter is by having our Mami witch out, and we could have saved her but we didn't thisisallourfault.

Of course, we'll just vote to cleanse anyways, but he doesn't know that.
And if Mami witch's, he can also tell other Megucas that "Renowned Magical Gir Mami Tomoe died of grief related causes after interacting with Sabrina."

TL;DR, I wouldn't put it past QB. Besides, do you really want to risk it?
 
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I guess everyone decide for yourself whether you think Sabrina should know that she's a Quest Protag?
I haven't seen anything to indicate that she does. She doesn't turn to address the audience or mention the existence of the voters or the forum. She doesn't go, "Oh, italics!" when she receives telepathy. Basically, she doesn't do any of the things that Deadpool does because he knows he's in a comic book.

So, no. That's too much.


I'm kind of pulling my hair at the telepathy bit, still.
[x] Telepathy Riona: Mami chose not to know the true purpose of magical girls.
Hey guys, do we really need to say anything over telepathy? Do you really think that if we say, "Let's not discuss anything sensitive without taking precautions," Riona will decide to blab about the witchbomb anyway?
 
Hey guys, do we really need to say anything over telepathy? Do you really think that if we say, "Let's not discuss anything sensitive without taking precautions," Riona will decide to blab about the witchbomb anyway?
Maybe not. Maybe. I went for that at first, but consensus seemed on making sure Riona doesn't blab about it.

This vote is a rollercoaster.

whee
 
I'm thinking we're overthinking the social aspects of the vote... OPSEC I understand... just being a generically polite but NOT formal should suffice for the current vote in terms of tone. Subjects are a different thing though.
 
[Q] Demand better manners.
-[Q] From yourself.
--[Q] Fall to your knees. Before Mami, not before Riona.
---[Q] Ask the Goddess, the Devil, and your personal Goddess of War and Cakes for strength dealing with rude meguca.
----[Q] Remind yourself you're doing this for hugs.
-----[Q] Hug Mami. Use Mamihugs as a wall with which to shrug off any rudeness.
------[Q] Muse about how, when it came to meeting a new guca, Mami quickly became the one with the pants in the relationship, while you're wearing the skirt.

Hadn't Mumi always been the one figuratively wearing pants in our relationship?
Except for that time we broke her, I guess.
 
In this case, I mention it because if it turns out our soul looks like it's stitched together multitudes, or a network hub with connections leading off into hundreds of directions,
That would be stronger evidence for the Walpurgisnacht theory. Sabrina being a mashup or network hub of all our souls would require souls to exist OOC.
(the Incubator mentioned it)
Probably don't want to call it that.
 
Regarding Sabrina and her self-awareness? It is a matter of degree. Sabrina hasn't put in the time, so her self-awareness isn't trained up past level 1. What would that look like? Perhaps she has a fleeting feeling, when she is by herself, that she is 'the main character,' but not at a verbal level. We all experience examples of that sort of person from time to time? Her thoughts are distinct, and somehow heterogeneous. But most people don't easily identify how their goals and logic occur IRL. Perhaps she 'knows' she has a bunch of part-time souls. Lots of people I talk to 'know' they have one soul. That doesn't affect much, other than the stories they tell themselves. When Sabrina really draws upon the fundamental level of her willpower, maybe she addresses herself in the plural? Deadpool is Deadpool. I'm not looking for Sabrina to try to be someone else. If she someday becomes aware of the itty-bitty components in her mind, that would be a fine story. It wouldn't be reasonable for her to be able to do that right now.
Therefore the correct answer, that I support, is "she knows." The result of this is "not much."

This is a different question from an external viewpoint! For Sabrina, her mind just works. Someone able to tap into that, and expecting a more common sort of multiple-seats-of-consciousness model, will perhaps be able to almost resolve some details. I don't want to find out if that voids the warranty.
 
Will try compressing next. The features of my version need a little highlighting? Here,
I'm thinking we're overthinking the social aspects of the vote... OPSEC I understand... just being a generically polite but NOT formal should suffice for the current vote in terms of tone. Subjects are a different thing though.
[Bam!] First, assert we actually need to go elsewhere to talk

Tell her "we should move before we talk." I won't vote it by dialogue, but that sort of blunt is the goal.
She is in a crowd. Has been literally all day. But she is a recluse.
Things get less stressful by exiting the airport. We want to have some interaction right now, and she is impatient. The roof will do nicely. If she wants to stay public,
there are restaurants in the airport. We can look for a booth seating place.
We should be observing her for stress responses. Her motivation to travel to us is perhaps so large as to be a problem. Get walking to the next area!

[Bam!] Brief answer to her question immediately. We are a good person, our friends agree, and Kyuubey said our soul was strange. We have few other facts, but we can talk about those.

Make the reply easy, but correct. Speak over her to get it in right away if we need to. It is a thing we can kinda say yes to. Put up a point for us. Talk while we are walking.
The choice of content is a move to be equal, and tell her we expect to be equal. Questioning our very being isn't cool. Gently push back on that. In a calm manner, not an Oriko riposte.

-[Bam!] Stay calm. Keep in mind that Riona just had a tiring flight herself.
-[Bam!] View her Grief if possible. Don't force that if abnormal sensations occur.

Basics. Small talk would be normal, but not for her? Still, do the physical hospitality thing. Take care of the guest. Offer to carry. Ask if she would like help with translation or directions. Maybe I move this higher in priority?

[Bam!] Dangerous to speak about everything openly, tell Rionna she knows better than to do that.

And we tell her that we are infohazard aware. In one move, with no puzzles to solve.
We can do that with a simple, easy to understand motive. We tell her our friends are important to us. Sounds less like some sort of monster when we say it that way

We offer her cleansing, or physical demonstrations of Grief at some point. This is the Sabrina show. Let her see that it is real.

Isn't that what she really wants? Proof, beyond kind words? If she's here either to resurrect her sister? or otherwise break the system, even if just for selfish reasons, she has come looking for a miracle.

[Q] Demand better manners.
-[Q] From yourself.
--[Q] Fall to your knees. Before Mami, not before Riona.
---[Q] Ask the Goddess, the Devil, and your personal Goddess of War and Cakes for strength dealing with rude meguca.
----[Q] Remind yourself you're doing this for hugs.
-----[Q] Hug Mami. Use Mamihugs as a wall with which to shrug off any rudeness.
------[Q] Muse about how, when it came to meeting a new guca, Mami quickly became the one with the pants in the relationship, while you're wearing the skirt.

Thanks!
OOHHH! Now I get it!
Social level = Paladin
 
Somewhat unrelated - I think that it was established that Lichbomb is such a big deal only in Japan, right? But, I was thinking, why is Witchbomb such a big, grief-spiraling, "might as well kill myself" problem? Knowing that you will turn into a witch is certainly no sunshine and rainbows, but if you killed at least two witches, then the amount of witches remaining is still net positive, no? So, you might as well continue what you were doing. Or is my osmosis knowledge missing something?
 
Somewhat unrelated - I think that it was established that Lichbomb is such a big deal only in Japan, right? But, I was thinking, why is Witchbomb such a big, grief-spiraling, "might as well kill myself" problem? Knowing that you will turn into a witch is certainly no sunshine and rainbows, but if you killed at least two witches, then the amount of witches remaining is still net positive, no? So, you might as well continue what you were doing. Or is my osmosis knowledge missing something?

Generally, you don't feel the existential horror of a pubescent girl who all but knows that she either dies fighting or becomes an unholy abomination preying upon the people.

But logically speaking, yes, your argument does make sense.

Except it doesn't cost Kyubei anything to contract more Magical Girls, so the cycle will continue long after you die with no real chance for you to stop it.
 
I think that it was established that Lichbomb is such a big deal only in Japan, right?
Not really. People on these forums tend to underrate the impact of it when viewing from a safe and detached distance, but loss of one's soul is considered a huge deal and grounds for an existential crisis in Western society as well... assuming one believes in the existence of souls. In fact, given how big Western religions are on the "don't sell your soul" thing, it pretty much equates to damnation if you believe in that sort of thing.

It's easy to think, "Yay! Superpowers! Who cares about the downsides?" when it's happening to somebody else.

Knowing that you will turn into a witch is certainly no sunshine and rainbows, but if you killed at least two witches, then the amount of witches remaining is still net positive, no?
That doesn't really change the fact of your own impending doom and transformation into a monster that will suffer eternally while murdering other people. Or the fact that everything you sold your soul for was pointless, and that the cause that you thought you were fighting and sacrificing for was a lie.
 
Not really. People on these forums tend to underrate the impact of it when viewing from a safe and detached distance, but loss of one's soul is considered a huge deal and grounds for an existential crisis in Western society as well... assuming one believes in the existence of souls.
Sure, but Western people are more likely to be able to rationalize it as "I didn't lose it, it's right here. I know more about where it is than I did before, that's the opposite of losing it" because they already (typically, to the extent they believe in souls at all) believe in dualism.
 
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but loss of one's soul is considered a huge deal
But, well, you didn't lose it. It's right there in your Soul Gem. Is there any reason to believe it being there is any worse than it being in whatever place it usually is?
Or the fact that everything you sold your soul for was pointless, and that the cause that you thought you were fighting and sacrificing for was a lie.
See, that's what I ask about. If your cause is to "fight witches" than, from the numbers standpoint, it doesn't change all that much from you becoming a witch.

But, people in general and pubescent girls specifically don't really think in numbers that way, I guess, especially when they are in the middle of it and have grief from knowledge clouding their positive rationalization.
 
Sure, but Western people are more likely to be able to rationalize it as "I didn't lose it, it's right here. I know more about where it is than I did before, that's the opposite of losing it" because they already (typically, to the extent they believe in souls at all) believe in dualism.
Yeah, but that's not where it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be inside your body. It's only supposed to leave when you're dead. And instead of going to an afterlife, Kyubey's going to keep it to use it as a battery.

Like, if I took your heart out of your chest and handed it to you in a glass jar with tubes running back to connect to your aorta so it could keep you alive from outside your body, would you be like, "Oh, it's no big deal. I've still got it and now I can actually see it," or would you be screaming in horror?

See, that's what I ask about. If your cause is to "fight witches" than, from the numbers standpoint, it doesn't change all that much from you becoming a witch.
Except witches are not a naturally occurring phenomenon. Kyubey creates them. So the war you were fighting was fake, because Kyubey was running both sides. You weren't helping anything, you were a dupe. And it's also a war that can never be won, because no matter how many witches magical girls kill, there will always be more.

When your soul was in your body it wasn't subject to literal deterioration over time due to being sad or using your cool new powers.
Your soul also couldn't be literally destroyed before. Even if you died, your soul was (according to religious belief) immortal and eternal. Once it's in a gem, someone can throw it off an overpass or hit it with a hammer and you cease to exist forever.
 
And instead of going to an afterlife, Kyubey's going to keep it to use it as a battery.

I mean, this point of consideration is a bit dependent on Kyubey bothering to tell you that part, if you find out you are your soul gem. It's not impossible that not everyone gets that part of the explanation; that comes with the Witchbomb, not the lichbomb initially, which seems to be the basis of what you're talking about at the moment. Obviously with the Witchbomb explanation everything gets a lot more awful in several ways, but before that, it's a bit more up in the air which parts of the lichbomb may or may not be extremely upsetting to any given person.
 
Your soul also couldn't be literally destroyed before. Even if you died, your soul was (according to religious belief) immortal and eternal. Once it's in a gem, someone can throw it off an overpass or hit it with a hammer and you cease to exist forever.

That's not the case, either. Souls disappear from Kyubey's observation but other materials confirm the soul persists for Gemsmashed girls, going to whatever afterlife exists for non-megucas.
 
[x] Stay calm. Be efficient and to-the-point. Keep in mind that Riona just had a tiring flight.

[] You explicitly wished to be able to control grief.

Taking this out because our soul was weird even before we wished. It's either obvious what we wished for or it doesn't matter.

[x] You're aware that your soul is strange (the Incubator mentioned it) but your best guesses aren't very good.
-[x] Magic was obviously involved, but you don't have any personal memories prior to waking up half-dead in an alleyway a few weeks ago.

Tweak slightly. We do have ideas, they're just not very good. I don't like this idea that we're totally lost and I simply don't understand how people think they need to say that we don't even have any guesses to be "not lying our face off". We have a couple of what I think are very good hypotheses and Riona could absolutely help us falsify some of them.

If I asked you, the thread, for guesses about what Sabrina was, you'd come up with about three options, all agree that they're all significantly higher-likelihood than a hypothesis selected uniform random from the space of all hypotheses, and at most qualify them as "we can't prove it yet though". Like, if I asked you to think up explanations for Sabrina's injuries in the opening post and then write them on the sides of a d10, how many sides would you mark "Shot by Madokami"? Any at all? More than two? I'd put down somewhere between four and seven. I bet I wouldn't be unusual. That's a hell of a lot better than "no fucking clue lol".

[x] Telepathy Riona: Mami chose not to know the true purpose of magical girls.

[x] Is she planning to stay? You can help find accommodations. Talk while you walk/fly.
-[x] Express interest in working together.
--[x] Indicate you can ensure privacy while working on sensitive projects.
---[x] Try to bring this up early to let Riona infer that you're not telling her everything right now.
-[x] Offer to demonstrate cleansing.
-[x] Show Hildegarde.

Be efficient - we don't want brinapilot to misread "walk" as "walk instead of flying". If Riona wants to be away ASAP, go ahead and hit the afterburners.

Upgrade from "willing to work together" to "actively looking forward to it".

Make it explicit that we're being sneaky to be sure it gets in and minimize chance of Riona getting annoyed.

[x] New policy: Avoid trances around Riona, mundane manipulations or enchanted Grief only. It'd be rude and you don't want to see her reaction.

What it says on the tin - let's not autopilot into a fuckup.
 
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Except witches are not a naturally occurring phenomenon. Kyubey creates them. So the war you were fighting was fake, because Kyubey was running both sides. You weren't helping anything, you were a dupe. And it's also a war that can never be won, because no matter how many witches magical girls kill, there will always be more.
The war itself may be fake, but the hurt from Witches is very real - and all the people you saved from witches are also very real. Yes, Witches are not a natural phenomenon, but then it's not like Kyubey is going to stop creating them depending on your actions.
When your soul was in your body it wasn't subject to literal deterioration over time due to being sad or using your cool new powers.
That's actually a very good point, though we know awfully little about how the soul functions normally and with grief in it. Hopefully it'll change now.
 
See, that's what I ask about. If your cause is to "fight witches" than, from the numbers standpoint, it doesn't change all that much from you becoming a witch.

But, people in general and pubescent girls specifically don't really think in numbers that way, I guess, especially when they are in the middle of it and have grief from knowledge clouding their positive rationalization.
The horror here comes, at least for me, from the inherent unsustainability. If witches are naturally occurring, then there's no reason to think it's impossible to survive indefinitely off of them. Sure, they're dangerous, but there's no reason to think it's an unmanageable risk. But if witches come from other magical girls, then that means the only way to personally survive is for someone in the same reference class as you to die. If that's the case, then you will die, and probably quite quickly because no matter how good you are you're on the wrong end of an exponential decay curve.
 
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