Lord Chungus
God of Nutella
- Location
- The Hague (it’s where all the cool people are)
Exactly. Nothing wrong.Say what?
Best buddy did nothing wrong with her Wish!
... Except for becoming an unstable yandere, I suppose.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
Well holy shit, here we are then.
Update was the goodness, we came out of the Homu-conversation well, I reckon. We, uh, may want to give Homura a heads-up that Sayaka has brought this to question a bit sooner than anticipated, just as a warning for if Homura sees her being a little thoughtful in class, giving Homura considering expressions, and all. Just to make it clear to Homura that we are not, in fact, going to do a dumb and drop the secret on the Saya-clone while Sayaka-prime is still expected to be socially interacting with Madoka and co. and could possibly have a panic over it and draw attention to things.
We do at least have tacit permission to give Sayaka The (Infohazard-option) Talk, with our best judgement, so at least it's not so much this situation pushing Homura to make a decision, as it is us having headed off the situation and talked it over before it was quite so immediate. (I'd imagine if Sayaka had asked us this if we'd pulled Homura aside to talk for some other reason a minute ago, and hadn't yet had a chance to discuss potentially Witchbombing Sayaka, that both we, and soon Homura, would be panicking a lot more than we actually are/will be. Yay, preparedness and proactiveness?)
Also,
[x] Onmur
@Onmur I like your proposed vote. Maybe add in a line specifically about telling her that she has until we get back to school and can enter privacy sphere with her main body to think good and hard about the choice we're giving her?
... aside from the discussion we could, but won't, go into about Homura flailing around and maybe projecting a tad bit...
An interesting thought here is that I think Homura's assessment of Sayaka as usually being weak has a lot to do with the fact that Sayaka generally breaks, in the places that Homura hasn't.
Homura has survived hell, hella fuckshit all everything. But Homura also doesn't think particularly highly of herself, of her innate value or properties or abilities. So, beyond the ways that Sayaka frustrates her, beyond the ways that Sayaka tends to muck up Homura's plans, I think there's a part of Homura that's going "I am weak and pathetic and I do all that I do in Madoka's name because obviously??? what else would I do??? even I can do this much??? and you, despite being insufferable and impossible to work around, are genuinely a good person, a better person than I am, I know this, so how do you always break like this???? Why? If even a good-for-nothing like me has managed to hold it together- and you're not like Mami, you're not cripplingly and chronically lonely and psychologically dependent on a damn Incubator-" and this all ties both into how Homura honestly cannot see how exceptional she is, and also, just... she has had years and years to see the same weaknesses, the same follies, again and again in her friends. A single failure, a single moment of weakness, may not be a weakness, persistent, when we see it once, but to see it repeated, over and over, a pattern formed...
So Homura's gone through hells of shit, and part of her is aware that it is, indeed, hells of shit, but at the same time she can't accept that she's done anything particularly notable, that she is anything particularly notable, by and for surviving it. And with how fragile Homura's plans must be, whole timelines must start seeming like houses of cards to her. And I think each time Sayaka, or any of the others, falls to something that Homura has survived, a hundred times survived... is it any wonder that she starts to see those failures as weakness, as fragility, even as Homura's self esteem keeps the place for lowest record marked?
I dunno. Just, something that the quote in question brought to my mind, is all.
... or maybe we could not suggest asking a meguca about the Wish they sold their soul for. Even if they don't know they sold their soul, pretty sure a meguca's Wish is generally kinda private, and asking about it is something of a faux pas? Unless you're a bit closer, or they've indicated through other context that it's no big deal, anyway, and even then...
Update was the goodness, we came out of the Homu-conversation well, I reckon. We, uh, may want to give Homura a heads-up that Sayaka has brought this to question a bit sooner than anticipated, just as a warning for if Homura sees her being a little thoughtful in class, giving Homura considering expressions, and all. Just to make it clear to Homura that we are not, in fact, going to do a dumb and drop the secret on the Saya-clone while Sayaka-prime is still expected to be socially interacting with Madoka and co. and could possibly have a panic over it and draw attention to things.
We do at least have tacit permission to give Sayaka The (Infohazard-option) Talk, with our best judgement, so at least it's not so much this situation pushing Homura to make a decision, as it is us having headed off the situation and talked it over before it was quite so immediate. (I'd imagine if Sayaka had asked us this if we'd pulled Homura aside to talk for some other reason a minute ago, and hadn't yet had a chance to discuss potentially Witchbombing Sayaka, that both we, and soon Homura, would be panicking a lot more than we actually are/will be. Yay, preparedness and proactiveness?)
Also,
[x] Onmur
@Onmur I like your proposed vote. Maybe add in a line specifically about telling her that she has until we get back to school and can enter privacy sphere with her main body to think good and hard about the choice we're giving her?
... aside from the discussion we could, but won't, go into about Homura flailing around and maybe projecting a tad bit...
An interesting thought here is that I think Homura's assessment of Sayaka as usually being weak has a lot to do with the fact that Sayaka generally breaks, in the places that Homura hasn't.
Homura has survived hell, hella fuckshit all everything. But Homura also doesn't think particularly highly of herself, of her innate value or properties or abilities. So, beyond the ways that Sayaka frustrates her, beyond the ways that Sayaka tends to muck up Homura's plans, I think there's a part of Homura that's going "I am weak and pathetic and I do all that I do in Madoka's name because obviously??? what else would I do??? even I can do this much??? and you, despite being insufferable and impossible to work around, are genuinely a good person, a better person than I am, I know this, so how do you always break like this???? Why? If even a good-for-nothing like me has managed to hold it together- and you're not like Mami, you're not cripplingly and chronically lonely and psychologically dependent on a damn Incubator-" and this all ties both into how Homura honestly cannot see how exceptional she is, and also, just... she has had years and years to see the same weaknesses, the same follies, again and again in her friends. A single failure, a single moment of weakness, may not be a weakness, persistent, when we see it once, but to see it repeated, over and over, a pattern formed...
So Homura's gone through hells of shit, and part of her is aware that it is, indeed, hells of shit, but at the same time she can't accept that she's done anything particularly notable, that she is anything particularly notable, by and for surviving it. And with how fragile Homura's plans must be, whole timelines must start seeming like houses of cards to her. And I think each time Sayaka, or any of the others, falls to something that Homura has survived, a hundred times survived... is it any wonder that she starts to see those failures as weakness, as fragility, even as Homura's self esteem keeps the place for lowest record marked?
I dunno. Just, something that the quote in question brought to my mind, is all.
... or maybe we could not suggest asking a meguca about the Wish they sold their soul for. Even if they don't know they sold their soul, pretty sure a meguca's Wish is generally kinda private, and asking about it is something of a faux pas? Unless you're a bit closer, or they've indicated through other context that it's no big deal, anyway, and even then...
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Subrosian_Smithy
endless
- Location
- Washington
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
"So basically, Witches are Magical Girls corrupted by despair," Sabrina says. "Any questions?"
Far away, the real Sayaka bolts out of her chair, spitting mad, and yells so loudly that Sabrina can hear her: "UGH! I KNEW IT!"
Anti-Kyubey measures are meaningless since this talk about Secrets is happening over telepathy and Kyubey isn't an idiot. It already deduced this is about the origin of Witches, among possibly other Homura's secrets it doesn't yet know.
Besides, even if it didn't yet know we were talking about it, what would happen if it found out? It would have have no more reason to intrude and say something bad than at any other time.
Besides, even if it didn't yet know we were talking about it, what would happen if it found out? It would have have no more reason to intrude and say something bad than at any other time.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
I think we sorta do this to be annoying? Paranoid!Guca ftw.
And well, there are some things we don't want to give Kyubei evidence of. For example, our dewitching plans. I mean, he's probably figured it out already, but eh.
And our talk will probably get there at the point of Sayaka asking how she could help.
GiftOfLove
From the Heart
She knows about Sabrina's secret hug-affair with Homura.
Dispose of her before she can tattle on us to Mami!
mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
This. Also, some of it is, I think, keeping it as unclear as possible to Kyubey exactly what we've told whom. Sure, sure, it knows we know shit, and that Homura knows shit. Sure, it knows we talk with people about the Witchbomb in some capacity. It may even know that Homura is a timecycling timeguca. (Did we ever get an answer as to how it originally knew that Homura had timestop, well enough to go spreading the word about it? Because that's a security leak right there, or else an indication that the Incubators have some capabilities we weren't expecting.)
What Cubes doesn't know is exactly what details we've told whom, and how we've handled them. It cannot quote us and twist our words. It cannot be sure we haven't spilled more half-details than we have; conversely, it cannot be sure we've spilled as much as it seems we have.
Kyubey doesn't actively misstep in a conversation often- rather, I get the impression it's very good at moving conversations fluidly, smoothing over things that don't go quite right. Moments where it hasta go "I just don't understand" some emotional content aside- because it does a decent job faking it, after all. It's not going to go for something pointed- like the Potentialbomb in canon- if there's the chance that it will fall horribly, horribly flat in the "Yes. Yes I'm aware. And your point?" sense. Not unless it's got a lot more at stake than I think we've got going with it at the moment- or unless it's got a lot less at stake than we've got going. It loses a particular kind of credibility- or, perhaps social currency, face, standing, threat? if it does that.
Basically, any bit of exactly-what-we've-said that we can keep from Kyubey means a little less maneuvering room to give him, to twist our words, or to plan with certainty on our actions and those of others. And the Incubators know the value of appearance, of putting on a good show to keep the ball rolling. That's why Cubes is a little fluffy floofle boof, after all. They're going to want to keep up the appearance of sure-footing when they're planning how to deal with us and ours- if they're not just flat-out programmed or natively inclined to take a wait-and-confirm-accuracy-of-data style approach in the first place. The longer we can keep the exact intel they need to work with secret, the better, I think.
Or at least, that's how I parse all this.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Yes, precisely this.
While keeping the broadest strokes of our information and future plans secret is a non-starter, every bit of obfuscation helps. If QB doesn't know exactly who knows what, and how that information was framed, then manipulation becomes harder. If QB doesn't know if a piece of information came from us, Oriko, or Homura, it becomes harder still to try to shuffle things around.
- Location
- Texas
"Yes," Sabrina says. "There is definitely stuff you should know. Unfortunately, some of that same stuff may cause you to die. Or me to die. Or some combination of Homura, Mami, Kyoko, the Asunari girls, and everyone else to die."
"I see," Sayaka responded. "That seems like the sort of thing we should be careful about."
"It's a head-scratcher, yeah."
"Is it something in particular that kills us?"
"Variety of things, depending on who finds out in what order, from whom."
"What do I die of?"
"Probably existential horror. Low chance of magical-girl violence."
"What do you die of?"
"Lead poisoning."
"Uhhhh...."
"Homura-induced lead poisoning."
"Well, then."
"Yeah."
Dragontrapper
Homeless Draconis
- Location
- A Tower in the middle of nowhere
"Let me make one thing abundantly clear. This is information that can get you killed. Not because it makes you a target, but because of what it is. Just being told this information can kill a Magical Girl. You know how I know things? I've seen this information kill you. I've seen it kill Kyoko. I've seen it kill Mami. And even if you survive learning it, you can't share it since it could still KILL whoever you tell. So I need to make one thing perfectly clear; if I tell you this, and if you survive, you cannot tell it to ANYONE."
"...Sabrina, you're scaring me."
"good."
"...Sabrina, you're scaring me."
"good."
mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
Aaaaa are those two votes for my X'd plan or for the non X'd in plan I proposed afterwards?
>_>
<_<
Well, still needs refining either way, and I'm probably gonna end up voting for Kai or Red or Phoenix once they start frankenvoting and refining the votes.
To your recent vote proposal:
Or something equally comprehensive. It basically covers like everything- except, again, the adding of the "you have until we head back to school and can talk in a privacy bubble to think about whether you want to know" line.
... can't really think of any substantial additions or subtractions at the moment, my propensity for frankenvotes notwithstanding.
I would only add a line to stress how she won't be able to tell her friends about it, specially Madoka, it will only make her want to make a a wish to changes things, that may missfire, and how once we tell Sayaka she will understand and, like us, don't want to drive her friend to become a magical girl either. So, yeah, it'll probably be a secret that'll alienate her from Hitomi and Madoka somewhat.
The again we can tell her that later as a last warning.
The again we can tell her that later as a last warning.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
(Hopefully) Refining:
[X] Funny she should ask. We just asked Homura about sharing with her.
[X] Stop searching. Sit down. Use Grief Fog to make sure KB isn't around.
[X] Serious talk. You can't emphazise enough how serious.
[X] Explain informational hazards.
-[X] The need for secrecy.
-[X] The risks.
--[X] What happens when someone finds out. How different people can react, and how difficult it's to predict who can handle what.
-[X] Use your experience with Mami as an example.
[X] Explain there's another truth that's far, far worse.
-[X] First and foremost: If you share this with Sayaka, you're putting Mami's life in her hands.
--[X] Mami must not know. It would kill her. Her and many others. Let that sink in.
-[X] Learning this would affect Sayaka:
--[X] It would change her outlook in life, like it changed Homura's and Niko's.
--[X] She would need to keep it secret 24/7, never let is slip in anger, not talk about it with anyone, not even Madoka, even if she thinks she's talking with others who know, and always take measures to ensure privacy if she must talk about it.
[X] So it's not about whether she should know, but rather about whether she wants to risk knowing.
-[X] Explain how you offered this knowledge to Mami, and Niko to Kazumi. How they decided to not know.
-[X] Both Homura and you are scared of sharing this, but you are making her the same offer.
-[X] Ask her to not decide just yet. Think about it.
[X] Reassure Sayaka.
-[X] If she decides to know, you'll trust her. You'll get her main body in a Privacy Sphere or timestop and tell her everything.
-[X] If she decides to not know, you won't think any less of her.
-[X] Witch Hunt?
Well I ended up adding more stuff, so I guess I'll wait for the frankenvoter brigade.
[X] Funny she should ask. We just asked Homura about sharing with her.
[X] Stop searching. Sit down. Use Grief Fog to make sure KB isn't around.
[X] Serious talk. You can't emphazise enough how serious.
[X] Explain informational hazards.
-[X] The need for secrecy.
-[X] The risks.
--[X] What happens when someone finds out. How different people can react, and how difficult it's to predict who can handle what.
-[X] Use your experience with Mami as an example.
[X] Explain there's another truth that's far, far worse.
-[X] First and foremost: If you share this with Sayaka, you're putting Mami's life in her hands.
--[X] Mami must not know. It would kill her. Her and many others. Let that sink in.
-[X] Learning this would affect Sayaka:
--[X] It would change her outlook in life, like it changed Homura's and Niko's.
--[X] She would need to keep it secret 24/7, never let is slip in anger, not talk about it with anyone, not even Madoka, even if she thinks she's talking with others who know, and always take measures to ensure privacy if she must talk about it.
[X] So it's not about whether she should know, but rather about whether she wants to risk knowing.
-[X] Explain how you offered this knowledge to Mami, and Niko to Kazumi. How they decided to not know.
-[X] Both Homura and you are scared of sharing this, but you are making her the same offer.
-[X] Ask her to not decide just yet. Think about it.
[X] Reassure Sayaka.
-[X] If she decides to know, you'll trust her. You'll get her main body in a Privacy Sphere or timestop and tell her everything.
-[X] If she decides to not know, you won't think any less of her.
-[X] Witch Hunt?
Well I ended up adding more stuff, so I guess I'll wait for the frankenvoter brigade.
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
That seems comprehensive enough to me.
[X] Onmur
[X] Onmur
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
I think that put in the right context, the witchbomb can actually be viewed as a positive thing.
If the current belief is that full grief results in death, then changing that death part into 'temporary madness until somebody like me comes along to undo the process' is an improvement.
If the fact remains true regardless that witches exist and that they kill people, then it's not any worse, strictly speaking, to believe that witches can be turned back into people rather than simply being destroyed.
I dunno, it'll probably be hard to wrap your mind around everything and manage to come anywhere close to a positive conclusion, especially for vets who've long since used up friends' seeds and given them to kyubey. But I think having this perspective of 'turning into a witch isn't really death anymore, but a second chance at life with the right powers' could help provide a goal and context that can be used to stave off the existential horror.
If the current belief is that full grief results in death, then changing that death part into 'temporary madness until somebody like me comes along to undo the process' is an improvement.
If the fact remains true regardless that witches exist and that they kill people, then it's not any worse, strictly speaking, to believe that witches can be turned back into people rather than simply being destroyed.
I dunno, it'll probably be hard to wrap your mind around everything and manage to come anywhere close to a positive conclusion, especially for vets who've long since used up friends' seeds and given them to kyubey. But I think having this perspective of 'turning into a witch isn't really death anymore, but a second chance at life with the right powers' could help provide a goal and context that can be used to stave off the existential horror.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Then you realize if Kyubey doesn't destroy grief seeds, and witchification doesn't kill you, hell is real and reserved for magical girls and witch copies, and the lions share of magical girls are ignorant and/or desperate enough to send you there.
Edit: Extending on this, magical girls are negative utlity monsters if this is the case and therefore utilitarian concepts of ethics should place their concerns above those of normal people. Seriously lovecraftian shit.
Edit: Extending on this, magical girls are negative utlity monsters if this is the case and therefore utilitarian concepts of ethics should place their concerns above those of normal people. Seriously lovecraftian shit.
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Lord Chungus
God of Nutella
- Location
- The Hague (it’s where all the cool people are)
[x] Onmur
This looks pretty good. Stresses how dangerous it its, and gives her time to mull it over. Overall good vote.
This looks pretty good. Stresses how dangerous it its, and gives her time to mull it over. Overall good vote.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
[x] Onmur
- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
(Hopefully) Refining:
[X] Funny she should ask. We just asked Homura about sharing with her.
[X] Stop searching. Sit down. Use Grief Fog to make sure KB isn't around.
[X] Serious talk. You can't emphazise enough how serious.
[X] Explain informational hazards.
-[X] The need for secrecy.
-[X] The risks.
--[X] What happens when someone finds out. How different people can react, and how difficult it's to predict who can handle what.
-[X] Use your experience with Mami as an example.
[X] Explain there's another truth that's far, far worse.
-[X] First and foremost: If you share this with Sayaka, you're putting Mami's life in her hands.
--[X] Mami must not know. It would kill her. Her and many others. Let that sink in.
-[X] Learning this would affect Sayaka:
--[X] It would change her outlook in life, like it changed Homura's and Niko's.
--[X] She would need to keep it secret 24/7, never let is slip in anger, not talk about it with anyone, not even Madoka, even if she thinks she's talking with others who know, and always take measures to ensure privacy if she must talk about it.
[X] So it's not about whether she should know, but rather about whether she wants to risk knowing.
-[X] Explain how you offered this knowledge to Mami, and Niko to Kazumi. How they decided to not know.
-[X] Both Homura and you are scared of sharing this, but you are making her the same offer.
-[X] Ask her to not decide just yet. Think about it.
[X] Reassure Sayaka.
-[X] If she decides to know, you'll trust her. You'll get her main body in a Privacy Sphere or timestop and tell her everything.
-[X] If she decides to not know, you won't think any less of her.
-[X] Witch Hunt?
Well I ended up adding more stuff, so I guess I'll wait for the frankenvoter brigade.
Are we gonna tell Mom that Sayaka brought this up? Probably best to let her know.
Otherwise, I like this vote.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
I think Oriko told Kyubey after seeing it in her visions?