Remove ads

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Reader mode
GiftOfLove said:
Random thoughts. The reason Homura might be failing so much is because she's trying to be an offensive type Puella Magi, when her wish and powers all seem to be about defense and support. So maybe we ought to help her develop her magic along those lines instead. Because she wished to go back protect Madoka, not vanquish her enemies.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well I mean, other than Walpurgis, she has yet to fight a Witch that she can't employ the strategy of "scum Timestop and shoot/explode it to death". Given her extremely limited powerset, she seems to be using her magic as effectively as she can.

She pretty much was delegated to the support role early on into the loops, although that's because her usefulness was extremely limited due to mostly using hand-made explosives. The reason she's an offensive type Puella Magi now is due to her needing to be, as pretty much none of the other Magical Girls except maybe for Kyouko (sometimes) trusted her as she went through the loops, causing her to become self-sufficient.
 
Firnagzen said:
"I-" Homura chokes on the word, shaking her head wordlessly. "I failed. I- I only hurt Madoka."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
"When people find their keys, it's always in the last place they look. Because they stop looking when they find their keys. Just because you aren't done looking for your happy end doesn't mean you're failing at anything. You're not failing over and over, you're a TIME TRAVELER. You're learning and setting things up. You're researching the solution. And you make progress every time. You haven't hurt Madoka. Kyubey did that. You've saved her. At the end of every loop, the universe tries to erase Madoka from existence, to take away her happiness forever, and you say, 'NO, WE'RE NOT DOING THAT.' And you MAKE it listen to you. And that's AMAZING, Homura. You're amazing."
 
The Narrator said:
I rather suspect that originally, the writers' concept for Homura only involved alternate universes to the degree that any time travel story does, with Homura creating new branching timelines every time she went back and changed events. Then some animator accidentally drew Kamijou with the wrong musical instrument, and so they had to pull the "aberrant timeline" excuse out of their ass and make each timeline its own entity.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Not according to the original storyboard transcripts.
 
[X] Keep being empathyBrina.
-[x] Take care to keep Homura open and communicating.
-[x] Take your time, give Homura however long she needs.

[x] Long-term goal: Help Homura recover self-worth by helping her believe that the loops have not failed. In particular:
-[x] Progress was being made on "not being tricked" with every loop, and her Wish last loop was sufficiently well informed.
-[x] Madoka was better off with Homura there, even if Homura wasn't perfectly successful immediately.

[x] Conversation goals: Get Homura to a point where it's safe to let her think about all of this.

[x] Potentially useful points for Brinapilot to deploy as appropriate:
-[x] If Homura had been hurting people, Madoka would have done something about it. She didn't, so she must not think that Homura is hurting people.
-[x] If your knowledge is correct, Madoka asked Homura to go back so everyone didn't end up that way. Madoka wouldn't have asked Homura to hurt people.
-[x] The alternative to the loops was everyone staying dead. Homura would have to try hard to do worse than that.
-[x] Make an analogy to surgical medicine - it hurts, maybe a lot, but it's better than dying of cancer.
-[x] If anything, Homura was giving Madoka hope.
-[x] Homura may not have yet succeeded, but she got everyone here, and that means that Everything Can Be Fixed. Even if Homura had been causing suffering, which you doubt, it can be fixed now, everything will be okay.
-[x] You always find your keys in the last place you look. Homura hasn't succeeded yet, but she's making progress, the same way you rule out "under the couch" or "on the desk" even though you're "failing" to find your keys.
-[x] In one of the possibilities you've seen, Madoka says that Homura has always been her very best friend.

I believe that I have a strict superset of Kai and Onmur, but with dramatically better clarity, clearer goal-direction, and giving Madokami much more freedom to direct Brinapilot to the best outcome.
 
Last edited:
Vebyast said:
-[x] If Homura had been hurting people, Madoka would have done something about it. She didn't, so she must not think that Homura is hurting people.
-[x] If your knowledge is correct, Madoka asked Homura to go back so everyone didn't end up that way. Madoka wouldn't have asked Homura to hurt people.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This seems like it would upset Homura further, given that we know that she has hurt people.

The logic of this whole snippet seems questionable. What could Madoka have possibly done to stop Homura?
 
Firnagzen said:
"I-" Homura chokes on the word, shaking her head wordlessly. "I failed. I- I only hurt Madoka."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

[x] Give her time and hugs and respect and all the good things she deserves and the world has cruely withheld.

[x] Tone: Absolute, total, beyond the ends of the world certainty. You know this is true.
-[x] If Madoka knew everything you'd done for her, she wouldn't hesitate to say for an instant that you are her greatest and best friend.

[x] And you also know that Homura would have succeeded on her own. She's strong enough to keep going to the end, no matter what. You're just here to make things a little easier for everyone.

[x] Let her compose herself.
 
Vebyast said:
Errrrr. Aren't we reasonably sure she witched out at the end of the last loop?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Homura made it to the end in canon, and there's a Golden Ending she can reach in PSP. That's "could" succeed, but if Madoka's "fix everything wish" is active then even without Sabrina I think Homura would manage to make it work with only a few more tries at most - hence, "would" succeed.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Homura made it to the end in canon, and there's a Golden Ending she can reach in PSP. That's "could" succeed, but if Madoka's "fix everything wish" is active then even without Sabrina I think Homura would manage to make it work with only a few more tries at most - hence, "would" succeed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I still think that I take issue with "strong enough to keep going to the end no matter what". Kyubey potentialbombing her would be a pretty fast bad end. I'm still not sure why it hasn't.

Hm. Idea: Kyubey managed to figure out that Homura's Witch, unlike Gretchen, is a universe-killer. It's intentionally not fucking with her because it likes its universe un-"Existence was a mistake"d.

Interesting. Would that force Kyubey to cooperate with us? If it can't kill Homura, then the only way it would survive would be to ensure Homura doesn't witch out, which would basically require our success.

Especially if the Kyubey from last loop sent that information forward after observing it happening alongside Madoka.

...Huh. Okay. I'm still not sure why it hasn't, but now I have a hypothesis that's at least plausible, which is way more than I had thirty seconds ago.
 
Vebyast said:
I still think that I take issue with "strong enough to keep going to the end no matter what". Kyubey potentialbombing her would be a pretty fast bad end. I'm still not sure why it hasn't.

Hm. Idea: Kyubey managed to figure out that Homura's Witch, unlike Gretchen, is a universe-killer. It's intentionally not fucking with her because it likes its universe un-"Existence was a mistake"d.

Interesting. Would that force Kyubey to cooperate with us? If it can't kill Homura, then the only way it would survive would be to ensure Homura doesn't witch out, which would basically require our success.

Especially if the Kyubey from last loop sent that information forward after observing it happening alongside Madoka.

...Huh. Okay. I'm still not sure why it hasn't, but now I have a hypothesis that's at least plausible, which is way more than I had thirty seconds ago.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

He seems to have some work ethics. Granted, they are pretty loose and he still is amoral as fuck, but straight up killing seems to be a no-no.

Kyubei doesn't seem to have any means to transfer information between loops. Each time, he figures out who Homu is by the process of deduction. ( Confirmation in Episode 10, where Kyubei figures out that Homu is a time traveler in the end of one loop, only for her to hang up on him )

And well, it looks like Kyubei doesn't believe Homulily is a universe-buster. Remember canon? He wouldn't have potentialbombed her if he had thought that her Witching Out is an existential threat. Then again, the fucker wants Madoka to contract, so foresight isn't probably his strongest forté.
 
The Phoenixian said:
Not really. Personally, I've never found the theory presented well enough to satisfy me and have no idea why it's in vogue beyond the fact that it popped up alongside UKG theory and got to ride its coattails.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The foundation is basically "Homulilly is the only incarnation of Homura that thematically works as being Feathers and would be motivated to take these specific actions" along with "Homura witching out is an extremely good explanation for why Madoka made the wish she did, as the Madowish implies that Madoka was Potentialbombed and knows that wishing makes Homura suffer."
 
Vebyast said:
I still think that I take issue with "strong enough to keep going to the end no matter what". Kyubey potentialbombing her would be a pretty fast bad end. I'm still not sure why it hasn't.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Do we know for certain that he figured it out this loop? It took Homura leaking some info in canon that I'm not sure she has in PMAS.

If he does know, there's a pretty good chance Sabrina is the reason he's not gone after Homura. Sabrina's abilities are unprecedented, and could potentially lead to massive gains for the Incubators. They probably don't want to do anything carrying a risk of her witching out until they've fully evaluated her usefulness.
 
Kyuubey can normally figure out Homura's a time traveler with even a slight bit of information, which is why she normally tends to avoid him as much as possible. This is shown even with the bonus route of the PSP game, where Kyuubey insinuates he knows what Homura is when she first meets him and after she states that she knows the entire truth about the Magical Girl system. The reason it takes a while in canon is because she interacts with him as little as possible.
 
Last edited:
Roomba said:
Do we know for certain that he figured it out this loop? It took Homura leaking some info in canon that I'm not sure she has in PMAS.

If he does know, there's a pretty good chance Sabrina is the reason he's not gone after Homura. Sabrina's abilities are unprecedented, and could potentially lead to massive gains for the Incubators. They probably don't want to do anything carrying a risk of her witching out until they've fully evaluated her usefulness.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Except that it's been mentioned by Kyubey that Sabrina's methods of grief collection isn't "as dense" as giving full Grief Seeds. And she's cut that down pretty significantly with her friends and allies.

If Rebellion is any indication then he really doesn't like that, and could be actively trying to get Sabrina out of the way to get things back to the status quo.
 
Roomba said:
Do we know for certain that he figured it out this loop? It took Homura leaking some info in canon that I'm not sure she has in PMAS.

If he does know, there's a pretty good chance Sabrina is the reason he's not gone after Homura. Sabrina's abilities are unprecedented, and could potentially lead to massive gains for the Incubators. They probably don't want to do anything carrying a risk of her witching out until they've fully evaluated her usefulness.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Oriko's told us that he already knows, basically. And he can't NOT have figured it out with all the time we've asked for "some time" with Homura and just fucking broke back to the group seconds later. Observing her magic is enough for him to do it, especially combined with "lol I literally never contracted this bitch what the hell."
 
AuraTwilight said:
Oriko's told us that he already knows, basically. And he can't NOT have figured it out with all the time we've asked for "some time" with Homura and just fucking broke back to the group seconds later. Observing her magic is enough for him to do it, especially combined with "lol I literally never contracted this bitch what the hell."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Plus he told Kyouko that she was a timestopper, so the cat's out of the bag about what her power is, and from there he can figure out that she wished to come back in time pretty easily.

What he might not yet know is exactly why she came back, but I wouldn't want to bet on it.
 
The Narrator said:
Plus he told Kyouko that she was a timestopper, so the cat's out of the bag about what her power is, and from there he can figure out that she wished to come back in time pretty easily.

What he might not yet know is exactly why she came back, but I wouldn't want to bet on it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean Homura's suuuuper not fucking subtle about her motivations and Kyubey is totally capable of figuring out "Hey, Homura showed up right when Madoka's potential got balls huge. Also she kept shooting me every time I tried to talk to Madoka up until it was too late to stop me from doing so."
 
Enhas said:
Except that it's been mentioned by Kyubey that Sabrina's methods of grief collection isn't "as dense" as giving full Grief Seeds. And she's cut that down pretty significantly with her friends and allies.

If Rebellion is any indication then he really doesn't like that, and could be actively trying to get Sabrina out of the way to get things back to the status quo.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The status quo hasn't changed. Our efforts have negligible impact on the planetary scale. This is why we've been allowed to carry out our Clear Seed shenanigans with no resistance from QB, in my opinion at least.

The Incubators don't know what Sabrina is truly capable of. Hell, we don't know either, and Firn hinted that it was much more than we think. A few updates ago, we were testing a hypothetical method of producing infinite Grief. If there's even a slight possibility of such an idea working, it's in their best interests to not antagonize us unnecessarily.
 
Redshirt Army said:
She's strong enough to keep going to the end, no matter what. You're just here to make things a little easier for everyone.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It doesn't matter that Homura won once. The problem is that this line is totally and indefensibly wrong, because we also know that Homura isn't "strong enough to keep going to the end no matter what". Which is really fucking obvious, when you think about it, because we've observed her witch out on several occasions, including possibly in this very quest's backstory. Hell, right now I'd be pretty happy if we got her to a point where she could handle another loop without witching out on the spot. "No matter what" is hard to say with a straight face when we know of a concrete, dangerously-likely future in which she fails to keep going about as hard as is physically possible.
 
Last edited:
Roomba said:
The status quo hasn't changed. Our efforts have negligible impact on the planetary scale. This is why we've been allowed to carry out our Clear Seed shenanigans with no resistance from QB, in my opinion at least.

The Incubators don't know what Sabrina is truly capable of. Hell, we don't know either, and Firn hinted that it was much more than we think. A few updates ago, we were testing a hypothetical method of producing infinite Grief. If there's even a slight possibility of such an idea working, it's in their best interests to not antagonize us unnecessarily.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Eventually she might figure out some way to use her powers worldwide, and quite possibly also find a way to turn Witches back to normal. Both of those are likely something Kyubey wouldn't tolerate. Small-scale alternate methods of grief collection yes, but not something that "breaks the system" and is less efficient like the Wraiths.

As for providing infinite grief... if that works, then have fun probably being locked away in an Incubator-made grief reactor / processing plant for the rest of time. No more Magical Girls or Witches, but no more anything else for Sabrina except constant grief production and torment. No different than being a Witch, really.
 
Have we experimented with "delayed reaction" grief? "Programmable" grief? We can control it at will, but can we control it will preemptively? Can we at time T, issue the command for it to move at T+3, and then have it go without us thinking about it again? Can we tell it to move left if a light turns on sometime in 5 seconds, and right if it did not?
If we can, I can build Maxwell's demon and get us infinite exergy.
 
So, thought. There's quite a few directions that have to do with Sabrina's general actions. So... we could specifically note them as part of Brinapilot's behavior.

Something like:

[X] Brinapilot:
-[X] Full Empathy.
-[X] Keep comforting Homura.
-[X] Give her time.
-[X] Don't push Homura too hard.
-[X] Ask for permission before bringing up any further points/arguments.

Followed by whatever else we do.

[X] Reassurances:
-[X] Homura's not the one hurting Madoka; she's the one giving Madoka hope.
-[X] Without Homura, none of us would be here. Not Madoka, nor everyone she loves.
-[X] Madoka wouldn't settle for a future where everyone couldn't be saved.
-[X] If Madoka learned everything Homura's gone through, she would call her her Best Friend.

[X] Ask Homura to share her thoughts, her feelings.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top