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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Vebyast said:
I still think that I take issue with "strong enough to keep going to the end no matter what". Kyubey potentialbombing her would be a pretty fast bad end. I'm still not sure why it hasn't.

Hm. Idea: Kyubey managed to figure out that Homura's Witch, unlike Gretchen, is a universe-killer. It's intentionally not fucking with her because it likes its universe un-"Existence was a mistake"d.

Interesting. Would that force Kyubey to cooperate with us? If it can't kill Homura, then the only way it would survive would be to ensure Homura doesn't witch out, which would basically require our success.

Especially if the Kyubey from last loop sent that information forward after observing it happening alongside Madoka.

...Huh. Okay. I'm still not sure why it hasn't, but now I have a hypothesis that's at least plausible, which is way more than I had thirty seconds ago.
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The problem here is that If Kyuubey knows what's up and is avoiding telling Homura because of it then we should not have been able to learn of it. Oriko telling us requires that Kyuubey in some hypothetical future actually make the choice to drop that bomb.

Which doesn't mean that that mechanism isn't in play, but Kyuubey having that specific information that he knows Homura can't be told for the sake of the universe is unlikely. Not unless he knows a way around that.

AuraTwilight said:
The foundation is basically "Homulilly is the only incarnation of Homura that thematically works as being Feathers and would be motivated to take these specific actions" along with "Homura witching out is an extremely good explanation for why Madoka made the wish she did, as the Madowish implies that Madoka was Potentialbombed and knows that wishing makes Homura suffer."
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I can see it fitting with what we know of her motives, but there's a couple problems here.
  1. The feather imagery seems much more Homucifer's and Madokami's deal than Homulilly's.
  2. While Homulilly is likely capable of timestop, she can't replicate everything we've seen unless what she has operates on substantially different rules than Homura's timestop. The witch should not be able to both transport Sayaka instantly and leave her unable to remember.
Additionally, while it's not explicitly a point against it, this scenario makes Homura's memory suspect, as I don't think she remembers being a witch. Which also means a the wish may not be what she's said. Not a point for or against, but it opens up a lot of complications.

--------

Hmm.... I've spitballed it before, but consider on the other hand, a Godoka-tier Gretchen (And very specifically Krimehild Gretchen, not UKG. Not necessarily anyways. The wish we know of from Madoka doesn't necessarily end in creating a conglomerate Madokami and UKG like the one in PMMM does.)
  • Feathery imagery? Madokami's has wings and a presence in PMAS and the white feather appears to be associated with her in Rebellion.
  • Able to rearrange people and events? Made this timeline and all it's associated oddities, including things happening at the wrong time.
  • Willing to take control of people for the sake of her ends? Forcible salvation is a big part of her whole deal.
  • Possible motive for getting Sayaka witch kissed? Knows her oldest friend, and how the event would push her into becoming a magical girl.
The biggest problem I can see is that KG!Feathers isn't sucking up everything, but even that may have an explanation in what we know of the wish and it's effects: Madoka wished everything could be fixed, not that it would be. And the changes we've seen, such as late contracts or Mami being Kazumi's mentor, set the stage for better things to happen, rather than outright dictating it. Which, in addition to letting people live their own lives, may also serve to limit how involved the hypothetical KG!Feathers can get.
 
The Phoenixian said:
Hmm.... I've spitballed it before, but consider on the other hand, a Godoka-tier Gretchen (And very specifically Krimehild Gretchen, not UKG. Not necessarily anyways. The wish we know of from Madoka doesn't necessarily end in creating a conglomerate Madokami and UKG like the one in PMMM does.)
  • Feathery imagery? Madokami's has wings and a presence in PMAS and the white feather appears to be associated with her in Rebellion.
  • Able to rearrange people and events? Made this timeline and all it's associated oddities, including things happening at the wrong time.
  • Willing to take control of people for the sake of her ends? Forcible salvation is a big part of her whole deal.
  • Possible motive for getting Sayaka witch kissed? Knows her oldest friend, and how the event would push her into becoming a magical girl.
The biggest problem I can see is that KG!Feathers isn't sucking up everything, but even that may have an explanation in what we know of the wish and it's effects: Madoka wished everything could be fixed, not that it would be. And the changes we've seen, such as late contracts or Mami being Kazumi's mentor, set the stage for better things to happen, rather than outright dictating it. Which, in addition to letting people live their own lives, may also serve to limit how involved the hypothetical KG!Feathers can get.
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So that's KG!Feathers as "anything can be broken" to counterpoint "everything can be fixed"? Can't remove the fixability, so it ensures that the fixer needs to work harder for it?
 
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The obvious explanation is that since Madoka made it so this timeline could be 'fixed' and specifically did it in a way that wouldn't mean her own intervention, this prevents Madoka(mi) from acting directly in any way, shape or form.

Thus, she's capable of participating in a tug of war with Kriemhild Gretched, and spends literally almost 24/7 locked in a hugs battle with Gretchen, pulling her back from entering this timeline and fucking it all up.

The time we made a Barrier for the second time, Madoka(mi) became indignant about what that did to Mami and distracted herself from holding back Gretchen while she took the time to yell PG 13 profanities at us.

This allowed Gretchen to break free for a moment and fuck up as many things as she could, before Madoka(mi) tacklehugged her, supplexed her, and carried her back into the almost-existance plane.
 
The Phoenixian said:
I can see it fitting with what we know of her motives, but there's a couple problems here.
  1. The feather imagery seems much more Homucifer's and Madokami's deal than Homulilly's.
  2. While Homulilly is likely capable of timestop, she can't replicate everything we've seen unless what she has operates on substantially different rules than Homura's timestop. The witch should not be able to both transport Sayaka instantly and leave her unable to remember.
Additionally, while it's not explicitly a point against it, this scenario makes Homura's memory suspect, as I don't think she remembers being a witch. Which also means a the wish may not be what she's said. Not a point for or against, but it opens up a lot of complications.
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1. You mean like how Homulilly literally shits black-feathered crow familiars like nobody's business? It's the same symbolism; Homucifer re-uses a lot of Homulilly's panopoly.
2. Yea, Homulilly's never moved people around and fucked with their memories. What was I thinking? :p

And there's no reason that she should have false memories, just missing ones, like Sayaka in Different Story.


Hmm.... I've spitballed it before, but consider on the other hand, a Godoka-tier Gretchen (And very specifically Krimehild Gretchen, not UKG. Not necessarily anyways. The wish we know of from Madoka doesn't necessarily end in creating a conglomerate Madokami and UKG like the one in PMMM does.)
  • Feathery imagery? Madokami's has wings and a presence in PMAS and the white feather appears to be associated with her in Rebellion.
  • Able to rearrange people and events? Made this timeline and all it's associated oddities, including things happening at the wrong time.
  • Willing to take control of people for the sake of her ends? Forcible salvation is a big part of her whole deal.
  • Possible motive for getting Sayaka witch kissed? Knows her oldest friend, and how the event would push her into becoming a magical girl.
The biggest problem I can see is that KG!Feathers isn't sucking up everything, but even that may have an explanation in what we know of the wish and it's effects: Madoka wished everything could be fixed, not that it would be. And the changes we've seen, such as late contracts or Mami being Kazumi's mentor, set the stage for better things to happen, rather than outright dictating it. Which, in addition to letting people live their own lives, may also serve to limit how involved the hypothetical KG!Feathers can get.
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Problems:

1) Gretchen is associated with white feathers.
2) Feathers apparently is actively seeking to kill people, not 'save' them.
3) Making Sayaka a Magical Girl = saving her is pretty suspect for a Witch's thought processes, bruh.

The thing about KG being Feathers that makes me fairly positive it's not true is A) It doesn't explain the way she talks to us in Time Stop and Barriers and shit, and B) We've seen imagery of Madokami and signs of her influence, which implies that instead of witching out, last-timeline Madoka ascended into a demi-Madokami status.
 
AuraTwilight said:
1. You mean like how Homulilly literally shits black-feathered crow familiars like nobody's business? It's the same symbolism; Homucifer re-uses a lot of Homulilly's panopoly.
2. Yea, Homulilly's never moved people around and fucked with their memories. What was I thinking? :p

And there's no reason that she should have false memories, just missing ones, like Sayaka in Different Story.
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1: ... Fair enough.
2: The issue is that this happens Post PMMM. Memory manipulation is a canon power for Homura and Homulilly, yes, but she only gets it after meeting with Madokami and wishing to see her again. The posited timeline of events leaves Homura with no chance to attain that power.

If her memories are missing, then we have the problem of her still remembering Madoka making her wish, as that is the one thing she should not have been able to remember.

AuraTwilight said:
1) Gretchen is associated with white feathers.
2) Feathers apparently is actively seeking to kill people, not 'save' them.
3) Making Sayaka a Magical Girl = saving her is pretty suspect for a Witch's thought processes, bruh.

The thing about KG being Feathers that makes me fairly positive it's not true is A) It doesn't explain the way she talks to us in Time Stop and Barriers and shit, and B) We've seen imagery of Madokami and signs of her influence, which implies that instead of witching out, last-timeline Madoka ascended into a demi-Madokami status.
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1: White feathers, and wings, aren't associated specifically with Madokami, they're associated with hope. Vice versa black with grief. My reasoning being that Homura's own wings went from white to black. The first time we see them in episode 12 they're white, later they're black. (also, our grief-wings for another data point of black wings)

2: This depends on how much the entity in question knew and thought about the actors involved. If Feathers just sees things as the appear to be and doesn't know the people then yeah, that's attempted murder. On the other hand, If Feathers knows that Oriko will try to see what happened and warn us, that we'll listen to her, and that Homura is also available and willing to listen to us, then Feathers could well be have the same sort of mindset that led Oriko to burn down Sayaka's house and claim she was saving her.

There is also the events from Oriko's visions to consider, but I'll freely admit I'm not sure what the deal is there.

3: No, it doesn't save Sayaka, but it does set things up so that people can be saved.


The problem with point B is that, as far as I can see, Madoka's stated wish lacks a clause or mechanism that that keeps her from falling. She's not eternally defeating herself, so how does she avoid witching out?

A is a fair point.
 
The Narrator said:
I rather suspect that originally, the writers' concept for Homura only involved alternate universes to the degree that any time travel story does, with Homura creating new branching timelines every time she went back and changed events. Then some animator accidentally drew Kamijou with the wrong musical instrument, and so they had to pull the "aberrant timeline" excuse out of their ass and make each timeline its own entity.

Probably just a reflection of the fact that the posters keep mentioning Mami from time to time, so she remains on Sabrina's mind.

Or that Sabrina's feelings for Mami are much like Homura's feelings for Madoka.

Or maybe that if we pulled Mami and Sayaka back into timestop right now to see Homura crying like this, they would both huggle her senseless. :D
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Pin-Pon !

That is what I noticed. Our lead-out strategy here could be to let our team specialist at 'saving Homura' take a turn after we are done.
 
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The Phoenixian said:
1: ... Fair enough.
2: The issue is that this happens Post PMMM. Memory manipulation is a canon power for Homura and Homulilly, yes, but she only gets it after meeting with Madokami and wishing to see her again. The posited timeline of events leaves Homura with no chance to attain that power.

If her memories are missing, then we have the problem of her still remembering Madoka making her wish, as that is the one thing she should not have been able to remember.
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Yea, and in the theory of "Sabrina is UKG, and Feathers is Homulilly," memory magic is naturally implied for the same reason as literally everything else.

1: White feathers, and wings, aren't associated specifically with Madokami, they're associated with hope. Vice versa black with grief. My reasoning being that Homura's own wings went from white to black. The first time we see them in episode 12 they're white, later they're black. (also, our grief-wings for another data point of black wings)

2: This depends on how much the entity in question knew and thought about the actors involved. If Feathers just sees things as the appear to be and doesn't know the people then yeah, that's attempted murder. On the other hand, If Feathers knows that Oriko will try to see what happened and warn us, that we'll listen to her, and that Homura is also available and willing to listen to us, then Feathers could well be have the same sort of mindset that led Oriko to burn down Sayaka's house and claim she was saving her.

There is also the events from Oriko's visions to consider, but I'll freely admit I'm not sure what the deal is there.

3: No, it doesn't save Sayaka, but it does set things up so that people can be saved.


The problem with point B is that, as far as I can see, Madoka's stated wish lacks a clause or mechanism that that keeps her from falling. She's not eternally defeating herself, so how does she avoid witching out?

A is a fair point.
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1. No, I mean, Gretchen and her familiars literally have white-feathered fucking wings. Here:





2. Oriko's visions show Feathers and the deaths of herself, Sayaka, Madoka, and possibly even Homura. That sure sounds more like "Homulilly is trying to make everything confirm to Timeline 1 out of regret" more than "Gretchen is trying to save everyone in a fucked up way."

B) Everything can be fixed, and Sabrina is the vehicle. Therefore, the entity that is outside time and space and causality can't be at risk of witching out until at least the moment where Sabrina is capable of purifying her, if ever.
 
So...some psychology insights, particularly from someone with first-hand experience:

1) People who develop long-held beliefs about themselves--particularly negative ones--don't have those beliefs changed immediately, and if they are changed immediately, the experience of having said belief changed immediately can itself be traumatic. Even having an epiphany (at the guidance of a therapist) that almost immediately changes your point of view takes some time to really sink in and process, even if the process itself starts immediately.

2) When such beliefs form as a result of trauma, it can take a lot of reiterating the same point over and over before they come to internalize it. Part of the remedy there is the subject engaging in positive self-talk to counteract the negative belief. It's something of a spectrum:
A-> Believing something negative about oneself, both intellectually and emotionally B-> Believing something negative about oneself emotionally, but not intellectually C->Not believing something negative about oneself.

There's a lot more nuance there, but that's the general gist. Homura's somewhere between A and B, needing Sabrina to repeatedly reiterate the points so that Homura can bring herself to B, and then reminding her and encouraging her to engage in positive self-talk so that she can eventually reach C.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
So...some psychology insights, particularly from someone with first-hand experience:

1) People who develop long-held beliefs about themselves--particularly negative ones--don't have those beliefs changed immediately, and if they are changed immediately, the experience of having said belief changed immediately can itself be traumatic. Even having an epiphany (at the guidance of a therapist) that almost immediately changes your point of view takes some time to really sink in and process, even if the process itself starts immediately.

2) When such beliefs form as a result of trauma, it can take a lot of reiterating the same point over and over before they come to internalize it. Part of the remedy there is the subject engaging in positive self-talk to counteract the negative belief. It's something of a spectrum:
A-> Believing something negative about oneself, both intellectually and emotionally B-> Believing something negative about oneself emotionally, but not intellectually C->Not believing something negative about oneself.

There's a lot more nuance there, but that's the general gist. Homura's somewhere between A and B, needing Sabrina to repeatedly reiterate the points so that Homura can bring herself to B, and then reminding her and encouraging her to engage in positive self-talk so that she can eventually reach C.
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Vebyast said:
Homura's not in a good place to stop right now. I think that if we let her sit she'll double down on the belief that she's failed. I think we need to give her a bit more so she can start her thinking from a more stable foundation.
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Therefore, not a bad idea to make a list of affirmations, and vote that we repeat them a few times? If we ask anything, that should include the same affirmations - just re-written as questions?
We can specify the better way to communicate.

Yes.
I'm saying that again. :rolleyes: Names ( of Your Positive Emotions) Are Important!

This is something we should get used to.
 
@Onmur - Reassurances list gets a thumbsup! Wondening why "[] Reassure. She hasn't failed as long as she doesn't give up." was cut?

@Kaizuki - Does this set of lines represent a long speech to Homura?

@Vebyast - The goal of a therapy talk should, or shouldn't, include specific repetition to account for resistance?

@Redshirt Army - Leverage basic Japanese culture here? Homura decided to act alone. What changed is that she now has the choice to form a meaningful group. And a family.

My current take - is now a good time to be verbally explicit about establishing the idea of Homura sharing her pain with others? I think we can and should aim for that.

Question - Given that there can't be full disclosure, none the less is Madoka better off involved before this whole idea is done? Grant Wishes...? Does this make sense? Dangerous?
 
Random thought: I was thinking on how to defuse the potentialbomb, the main argument being that Madoka having a huge magic potential doesn't mean much as long as she doesn't contract. I know this isn't something to say now, but just a fleeting thought.

GiftOfLove said:
Random thoughts. The reason Homura might be failing so much is because she's trying to be an offensive type Puella Magi, when her wish and powers all seem to be about defense and support. So maybe we ought to help her develop her magic along those lines instead. Because she wished to go back protect Madoka, not vanquish her enemies.
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When they were training enchantments Homura managed to make a shield.

AuraTwilight said:
The foundation is basically "Homulilly is the only incarnation of Homura that thematically works as being Feathers and would be motivated to take these specific actions" along with "Homura witching out is an extremely good explanation for why Madoka made the wish she did, as the Madowish implies that Madoka was Potentialbombed and knows that wishing makes Homura suffer."
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Didn't Oriko claim that Feathers wasn't a Witch (thus can't be Homulilly)?
 
[Q] Ask Oriko whether Feathers is...
-[Q] A Witch?
-[Q] A Demon?
-[Q] A Demom?
-[Q] A meguca?
-[Q] An Angel?
-[Q] A God?
-[Q] A Repressed Lesbian?
-[Q] ... Her?!
-[Q] ... US?!
-[Q] ... MAMI?!
-[Q] Kirika?
 
Filraen said:
Random thought: I was thinking on how to defuse the potentialbomb, the main argument being that Madoka having a huge magic potential doesn't mean much as long as she doesn't contract. I know this isn't something to say now, but just a fleeting thought.

When they were training enchantments Homura managed to make a shield.

Didn't Oriko claim that Feathers wasn't a Witch (thus can't be Homulilly)?
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She said that it's not a Witch, that Sabrina can kill. That can mean many different things.

- It's not a Witch
- It is a Witch
- Sabrina can't kill it because it's herself
- Sabrina can't kill it because she won't be around to, either by being dead or otherwise not existing

My own theory is that Feathers is a premonition of something that doesn't exist... yet, and that it's Homucifer.

Whether Oriko really doesn't know or if she's being Kyubey-like vague or misleading is a mystery.
 
Enhas said:
She said that it's not a Witch, that Sabrina can kill. That can mean many different things.

- It's not a Witch
- It is a Witch
- Sabrina can't kill it because it's herself
- Sabrina can't kill it because she won't be around to, either by being dead or otherwise not existing

My own theory is that Feathers is a premonition of something that doesn't exist... yet, and that it's Homucifer.

Whether Oriko really doesn't know or if she's being Kyubey-like vague or misleading is a mystery.
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Firnagzen said:
"Not a Witch?" you ask carefully. Not Gretchen, or Homulily? Or your own Witch, whatever that might be?

"It's not," Oriko replies. "A Witch, you can kill."
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Enhas said:
Whether Oriko really doesn't know or if she's being Kyubey-like vague or misleading is a mystery.
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I'd throw my hat on 'doesn't know'. She mainly gets images, not explanations. Though the way she phrased it, it sounds like Feathers is not a witch, based possibly on her seeing us fighting it directly and getting a 404 - grief not found.
 
Can't quote hunt right know but Oriko explained she can't look directly at Feathers.

Feathers is too grossly incandescent.

:V
 
I think that Feathers is such a blatant Villain Stu that Oriko feels nausea and vertigo just from attempting to look at him/her/them/it.

"The fuck is this?! Invincible, invisible, black-winged- I think I'm gonna barf."

( this was a place I had placed a smiley face in until I realized that tiny Onmur was trying to claw its way out of my chest again )
 
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The way to figuring out what Feathers is lies in conducting a controlled barrier experiment and watching what it does.

Its actions the first time it got to act are mysterious as is. Why target Sayaka, and why using such a circuitous method? Through knowing its motivations and capabilities, we can divine its nature. As is, we simply know way too little to be of practical use.
 
I had a random thought.

When we do go to Kamihama, will we encounter other versions of Homura, Madoka, Mami, etc?

Because I was kicking around some ideas of PMAS!Homura talking with Magia Record!Homura, then realized that that would bring up a whole fuckton of problems and implications.

Also, assuming Feathers=Homulily is true, what happens when our Homura tries to summon a doppel?
 
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Shadowhisker said:
I had a random thought.

When we do go to Kamihama, will we encounter other versions of Homura, Madoka, Mami, etc?

Because I was kicking around some ideas of PMAS!Homura talking with Magia Record!Homura, then realized that that would bring up a whole fuckton of problems and implications.

Also, assuming Feathers=Homulily is true, what happens when our Homura tries to summon a doppel?
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...W-

Why the fuck would we encounter other versions of our friends? What do you think is going on that would allow for this?
 
Shadowhisker said:
I had a random thought.

When we do go to Kamihama, will we encounter other versions of Homura, Madoka, Mami, etc?
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Why would there even be other versions of the girls in Kamihama? The girls in Magia Record are the actual versions of them from that timeline.

It's also likely that there isn't crazy stuff going on in Kamihama in this universe, considering there aren't rumors of strange stuff going down there, and because none of the girls have been contacted by a non-Madoka pink haired girl telling them to go to Kamihama City.
 
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