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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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The Narrator said:
The point is to counter her insecurities by giving her as much credit for possible for any success that we've had, so that she won't start thinking that she's useless or a failure.

Homura's wish was essentially to be the hero of the story. We want to make sure that she still feels like she is.
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That's the general tone of the vote, yes, and I agree with the idea. What I don't get is how the "You (Homura) owe everything to her(Madoka)" ties into that: for me it sounds like "the only thing that should matter to Homura is to protect Madoka, it's the only thing that could even give meaning to Homura's life"; does that mean Homura shouldn't try to grow herself as her own person? Not having her own wants, dreams, likes and dislikes?

I don't think it's the idea behind the sentence but I don't understand the sentence in another way.

Ah! It isn't "You (Homura) owe everything to her(Madoka)", it's "You (Sabrina) owe everything to her(Homura)"! Now it makes sense. Derp.

[x] Kaizuki
 
Akemi Homura

The chilly black of the privacy bubble rose around them and Sabrina turned to the other two.

"Okay," Sayaka said, "so what's so important that we're not over there celebrating with everyone else?"

Mami nodded slightly in minor agreement, nestling into Sabrina's side as the white-haired girl took her seat and sighed lightly.

"Homura asked me," Sabrina began, "to give both of you a rough understanding of her past, after I finally convinced her that it would be a good thing to share with you."

Sayaka snorted. "Alright, then why isn't she here herself?" It wasn't an expression of distate, not really, but it brought a response disproportionate to what the bluenette had expected from Sabrina, a clear frown and a shake of her head.

"Have the two of you," Sabrina began, "heard of Atlas, the Titan from Greek mythology?"

Sayaka almost squirmed, but recognition was clear on Mami's face. "He held up the sky, right?" she asked, then frowned lightly. "What does that...?"

Sabrina nodded, and closed her eyes. "The first thing you should understand about Akemi Homura is that where Atlas held up the sky, for the last ten to twenty years, Akemi Homura has held up the universe itself. For its cruelty, she picked it up, she raised it over her head, and she cast it down to shatter.

It was a feat beyond the legendary and far, far into the impossible -- into the unthinkable. It was a feat that broke her, that ground her bones to dust until she could barely bring herself to walk another step. Her actions are the sole reason that any of us are alive today, and the entire world owes her a debt it will never be able to fully repay.

It would not, indeed, be inaccurate to draw parallels to the Christian Jesus. To say that Akemi Homura willingly crucified herself, and in so doing earned forgiveness for our sins... It would be true."

Sabrina's eyes opened. "That is the sort of person we are talking about. I am, and will always be, in utter awe of her. And once you've heard her story, you will be too."





In honor of Akemi Homura, for whom we will do all we can.
 
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Kaizuki said:
Akemi Homura

The chilly black of the privacy bubble rose around them and Sabrina turned to the other two.

"Okay," Sayaka said, "so what's so important that we're not over there celebrating with everyone else?"

Mami nodded slightly in minor agreement, nestling into Sabrina's side as the white-haired girl took her seat and sighed lightly.

"Homura asked me," Sabrina began, "to give both of you a rough understanding of her past, after I finally convinced her that it would be a good thing to share with you."

Sayaka snorted. "Alright, then why isn't she here herself?" It wasn't an expression of distate, not really, but it brought a response disproportionate to what the bluenette had expected from Sabrina, a clear frown and a shake of her head.

"Have the two of you," Sabrina began, "heard of Atlas, the Titan from Greek mythology?"

Sayaka almost squirmed, but recognition was clear on Mami's face. "He held up the sky, right?" she asked, then frowned lightly. "What does that...?"

Sabrina nodded, and closed her eyes. "The first thing you should understand about Akemi Homura is that where Atlas held up the sky, for the last ten to twenty years, Akemi Homura has held up the universe itself. For its cruelty, she picked it up, she raised it over her head, and she cast it down to shatter.

It was a feat beyond the legendary and far, far into the impossible -- into the unthinkable. It was a feat that broke her, that ground her bones to dust until she could barely bring herself to walk another step. Her actions are the sole reason that any of us are alive today, and the entire world owes her a debt it will never be able to fully repay.

It would not, indeed, be inaccurate to draw parallels to the Christian Jesus. To say that Akemi Homura willingly crucified herself, and in so doing earned forgiveness for our sins... It would be true."

Sabrina's eyes opened. "That is the sort of person we are talking about. I am, and will always be, in utter awe of her. And once you've heard her story, you will be too."





In honor of Akemi Homura, for whom we will do all we can.
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OK, now tell the story to Kirika.
 
Kaizuki said:
The chilly black of the privacy bubble rose around them and Sabrina turned to the other two.

"Okay," Sayaka said, "so what's so important that we're not over there celebrating with everyone else?"

Mami nodded slightly in minor agreement, nestling into Sabrina's side as the white-haired girl took her seat and sighed lightly.

"Homura asked me," Sabrina began, "to give both of you a rough understanding of her past, after I finally convinced her that it would be a good thing to share with you."

Sayaka snorted. "Alright, then why isn't she here herself?" It wasn't an expression of distate, not really, but it brought a response disproportionate to what the bluenette had expected from Sabrina, a clear frown and a shake of her head.
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"It's cuz she's a giant neeeeeeeerd," Sabrina made clear, gesticulating to make clear just how big a nerd Homura was.

Sayaka opened her mouth to say something, but Sabrina gently put her hand over Sayaka's mouth. "Shhhhhhh. Storytime now."

Mami nodded, raptly paying attention, as Sayaka slumped in defeat.

Sabrina cleared her throat, and began to exposit. "So Hameru used to be a giant moe sadsack nerd that got bullied tons and who nobody loved. Then Madoka became a magical girl and saved her from a witch, and poor Hameru went 3000% full turbo limpet mode."

Sabrina leaned in to Mami conspiratorially. "That's a full 2000% more limpet then you are!" The brief interlude over, Sabrina went back to the whiteboard she'd made out of grief while the narration was focusing on something else.

"So anyway, from that first timeline, Homura wished to be awesome enough to save Madoka from Walpurgisnacht, since it totally owned Madoka the first time around. As you can guess by the results, that wish was over her potential. So she had to loop through time like a hundred times until she got to this timeline."

Sayaka gazed intently at the diagrams Sabrina had drawn, in particular looking suspiciously at the "suspected Kwijibo incident" notes on one section that had been triple underlined, before finally raising her hand. "Isn't this just the plot of Steins;Gate?"

Sabrina nodded happily. "Yep! I showed Homura the show and she got so invested in it that she shut herself up in her room and refused to come out to talk to me. Such a nerd."

Mami sighed. "Oh, Sabrina."
 
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Kaizuki said:
Before that we obviously need to say that we oppose a Madowish being made in the current timeline. Which we do.
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So I think I've consistently missed the part where this "obvious" fact was discussed and explained :p Is it just Homu-trauma? Or the idea that a Madowish isn't needed so why risk?

Because ClearSeeds (let alone anything later like de-witching or stopping entropy or whatever) seem to drastically reduce the chance if not eliminate of a Gretchen incident....or is the assumption that Kyubey will find a damned way to insta-witch via a somehow easier effort than getting Madoka to contract at all?

It doesn't seem to just be "Being Meguca is Suffering" , because all our opposition to Sayaka contracting vanished into nothingness as soon as we realized she Dun Wished Gud, and Madoka saw that even. Sabrina doesn't even seem to act like it was a failure anymore. Seeing as we can probably assure that Madoka Wishes Good in a way that doesn't involve baleeting herself from the universe.... and seeing as we may need something like it anyways if Canon bullshit is in play... I dunno man.

Redshirt Army said:
Homura doesn't rewind time, she's a slider.* Conclusion is based on false pretences because those timelines still exist in an accessible form.
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Can someone cite explicit @Firnagzen Word of Madokami that this is canon for PMAS? Because, as the discussion covered already....

Redshirt Army said:
I don't think she'd be willing to accept her power "rewinding" (but not really) things as making the suffering of Madoka in the past "not count".
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If Homura is a slider, then all the past failed loops are eternally suffering Madokas and/or wrecked worlds that are unsaveable by Homura's power at least, and really I don't see how anything less than a Madowish retcon could save them. How do we "fix everything" and convince Homura we did, if there are dozens of failed unsaveable Madoka's out there?

Filraen said:
Does Homura know that? Because that sounds even worse than a potentialbomb to me. (I've failed countless different Madokas to die/witch before... *Homulilly'd*)
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This, basically, I said it earlier even :p
 
The Narrator said:
Sorry, but your wording was really unclear, so I thought you were making a declaration of intent.



My previous votes went into more detail about the ways that Homura has been doing good, but now that we've been diverted onto a tangent about Madoka's dreams I have to start from there so it doesn't seem like we're just flipping between topics randomly. With a general goal of making Homura feel better about herself, I'd hope that Sabrina would refute anything negative that Homura might say about herself.



Can you clarify what you mean by "reframing talk?" If you mean the idea that some of the other voters are putting forward of trying to make Homura think of Madoka's wish as being a good thing, it's my intent to not attempt that, as I don't think that Homura would be able to accept it and I'm almost certain that being reminded of it will make her feel worse.
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You have this gist, as well as my further intent to apply this style of talk to her other two issues. The time has to be right, but in a broad view is there really any other normal route to health here? The other support strategies need to be applied, it just seems that they do not replace re-framing. Thanks for concentrating.
 
[x] Continuous cleanse.
[X] Dream!Homura is seen warning Madoka about Kyuubey
[x] Respect Homura. Don't push, be empathic, give her time/cleansing as needed, etc.
[x] Madoka dreams of Homura... as her hero. The impressions and instincts she picks up from the dreams drive her to trust Homura and get closer to her, not the opposite.
-[x] Madoka doesn't think Homura is a failure, and she doesn't think of Homura as a source of pain to be avoided. Insofar as she knows about Homura's mission, she approves of it.
--[x] Provide evidence and examples to support this if Homura asks for them - there's plenty to pick from.
--[X] IF Homura fears / feels shame regarding Madoka seeing all her past actions, explain format. Madoka's dream definitely is edited.
[x] If Homura questions Madoka's judgement:
--[x] You think Madoka's right to trust in her. Without Homura, none of what's happening now would be possible. Madoka, Mami, Sayaka, Mitakihara itself, it would all be gone for good. The only reason that all of you can fight for a better future - the only reason Sabrina even exists! - is because Homura never quit. You owe everything to her.
--[X] Madoka is free. Madoka is equal. Madoka chose. Madoka is good and wise.

Thank you for your effort, @Kaizuki . It seems there is no interest in finely controlling the delivery of the talk? I won't bother to assert that part now.

I will accept that we are going down your branch, so giving you support.

OTOH, the handling of the Homura "Critical Moment Interrupt" is not explicit in current text.
Getting this to happen was a goal from before, so it seems right to consider that gambit now?

I think the added lines are both compatible with your plan, and increase our performance / safety margin.

Therefore, welding them on.
 
Hmm, even if there were more Brina's in Homura's past loops, would they start the instant Homura left? (since that would probably cause time paradoxes unless present Homu forgot about it). That would be a mess and a half to deal with.
 
Kaizuki said:
I'm taking it.

[x] Continuous cleanse.
[x] Respect Homura. Don't push, be empathic, give her time/cleansing as needed, etc.

[x] Madoka dreams of Homura... as her hero. The impressions and instincts she picks up from the dreams drive her to trust Homura and get closer to her, not the opposite.
-[x] Madoka doesn't think Homura is a failure, and she doesn't think of Homura as a source of pain to be avoided. Insofar as she knows about Homura's mission, she approves of it.
--[x] Provide evidence and examples to support this if Homura asks for them - there's plenty to pick from.

[x] If Homura questions Madoka's judgement:
--[x] You think Madoka's right to trust in her. Without Homura, none of what's happening now would be possible. Madoka, Mami, Sayaka, Mitakihara itself, it would all be gone for good. The only reason that all of you can fight for a better future - the only reason Sabrina even exists! - is because Homura never quit. You owe everything to her.
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Still reading the writeup, but I think this needs an addition to start it off: While it's implicit that Madoka isn't hurt by those dreams, I think that point can and should be made much more explicit. And I'm of the opinion that making that statement as overt and well supported as possible It would go a long way.


I think a couple of Veb's lines have merit here:

-[] If Madoka was being hurt by her memories she'd be behaving completely differently.
-[] Madoka's trust in Homura isn't her usual general niceness. You think you've seen her unconsciously turning to Homura the same way she does to you.
 
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