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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Raiseth said:
I wanted to answer that, but I'd better let Redshirt Army continue. He's been doing a good job so far and he was the first to explain transtemporal mechanics to me before I read the Wraith Arc, so I won't be able to tell you anything he doesn't know.

Edit:
Eh, I'm not that lazy.

Madokami rules over only one of the infinite number of timelines. Her Gretchen will not, had not and have not existed in that timeline, but only that. Other Madokas are out for themselves.

Basically, Madoka's Wish creates a brand new timeline where she is a neverborn Goddess of Hope who resides over all of Puella Magi.
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Mmm, not quite right. Madokami reigns over all timelines where her potential accumulated from - in all of those timelines, the despair of all magical girls was absorbed by Madokami, who then collapses into UKG, then gets killed by Madokami from earlier in her own personal timeline. This includes earlier Madokas.

We don't know what happens in timelines which weren't already linked to Madokami - indeed, the only published material I'm aware of that considers multiple different Homuras all on their own individual and non-overlapping journeys to help Madokas is Tamara Homura, which is explicitly a comedy parody.

You could make an argument either way for if Madokami can affect those timelines too.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
You could make an argument either way for if Madokami can affect those timelines too.
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:jackiechan:

Fuck these parallel timelines! They only matter when it's to cause us trouble.

Raiseth said:
Actually, if Madoka's Wish was "that everything could be fixed", we can potentially fix every timeline ever, not just ours. Or not.
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That was my original reaction too, except it's false if Madoka's wish only affected this timeline/universe.
 
I propose asking Strypgia to contact Daniel and his Avalon Empire in order to fix as many of the infinite clusterfucks that are Puella Magi multiverse as we are able to. :V

(Just a Crown of Stars shout-out, don't mind me. )
 
Kaizuki said:
:jackiechan:

Fuck these parallel timelines! They only matter when it's to cause us trouble.



That was my original reaction too, except it's false if Madoka's wish only affected this timeline/universe.
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I don't think there's any reason for Madoka's wish to be limited in that way, honestly. It's not at all proven in any way, but my hypothesis is that the wish should extend to truly all timelines.

This is especially true if the wish manifested as Sabrina, since I don't think we'll be satisfied leaving other timelines to rot forever, once we get this one in order.
 
Kaizuki said:
That was my original reaction too, except it's false if Madoka's wish only affected this timeline/universe.
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I don't think that's the case. Madoka's wish last time around was brilliant because that wording was given the same punch as her canon wish (it just didn't cause a paradox that BSOD'd the multiverse). Kyubey cheated Homura out of her happy ending, and Madoka righted the scales by cheating him right back.

"Everything can be fixed" is a trans-temporal, pan-universal constant now. Everything, without exception, now has the property 'Can Be Fixed'. No matter how many more hypothetical loops it would take, Homura's final victory just went from 'statistically impossible' to 'essentially inevitable'.

The only caveat is that 'can be fixed' doesn't mean 'will be fixed' or 'is fixed'; we still have to execute.
 
Redshirt Army said:
This is especially true if the wish manifested as Sabrina, since I don't think we'll be satisfied leaving other timelines to rot forever, once we get this one in order.
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So what, an eternal crusade in the name of Holy Empress Mami?

Sounds lovely. Sign me up!

The possibility of infinite Mumis tho~

Is

Exciting Worrying Titillating Problematic Confusing.
 
Let's consider a spherical Madoka in a vaccuum...

Ahem.

Thought: Telling Homura about how one of the first things we experienced when we woke up was seeing Madoka's golden eyes.

Well, the specifics might be dangerous to share, but we could totally tell Homura we've got a 'message'/hint from Madoka... that we've interpreted as her trusting us to solve things in her stead, or so.

(There's the golden eyes and later Madoka looking at us (a supposed stranger) for help when Mami and Sayaka were butting heads with Homura.)



About this vote. I'm not certain about this 'Madoka wanting Homura to help her make the most awesome Wish' and I don't think Homua would like it either.

For now, I'd like to try and appease Homura's mind of her guilt over hurting Madoka. The point of this vote is a good one.



One thing we need to get across to Homura at some point is that... she must rely on others, that it's OK, that not everything bad is her fault and responsibility. And I think it's something that can be done, but it would take time and a lot of trust.

Hmmm... Let's keep in mind we don't want to overwhelm Homura. We should check with her and pay attention for when it'll be better to wrap up the conversation and give Homura a break. And hopefully more hugs. Just need to make sure to not leave any wound open to fester.
 
Always Happening said:
I don't think that's the case. Madoka's wish last time around was brilliant because that wording was given the same punch as her canon wish (it just didn't cause a paradox that BSOD'd the multiverse). Kyubey cheated Homura out of her happy ending, and Madoka righted the scales by cheating him right back.

"Everything can be fixed" is a trans-temporal, pan-universal constant now. Everything, without exception, now has the property 'Can Be Fixed'. No matter how many more hypothetical loops it would take, Homura's final victory just went from 'statistically impossible' to 'essentially inevitable'.

The only caveat is that 'can be fixed' doesn't mean 'will be fixed' or 'is fixed'; we still have to execute.
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@Firnagzen spinoff where we go to alts y/n
 
Raiseth said:
Perditur Systema had a similar premise, didn't it?

Hmm.
What if Madoka's Wish created Infinite Brinas to fix infinite universes?

What if our universe has a Brina of our own?

What if... @Sabrina?

:o
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You know a while back (before I even had an account, and was still just a lurker) there was a post it was hypothesized that PMAS!Madokami created our universe specifically to serve as Sabrina's mind. Basically, the ultimate literary agent hypothesis.

(Also maybe as a proof of concept for a magic-less universe. I don't know, I barely remember my own name.)
 
Most of Kaizuki's idea is in the same "make Homura feel better" mold as the rest of us are pursuing, but I'm concerned about this:
Kaizuki said:
"Homura's mission was never to defeat WPN alone, it was to protect Madoka while she figured out how to pretty much shape the entire universe into what she wanted it to be.
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I'm concerned that trying to push an idea like this will run right up against the issue of Homura's wish: that she wished to be the one to save Madoka, and that she would interpret this is her basically accomplishing nothing until Madoka finally had to to save herself.

That's why my last couple votes all wanted to emphasize the idea that Homura is the hero and we're just here to help her.
 
The Narrator said:
Most of Kaizuki's idea is in the same "make Homura feel better" mold as the rest of us are pursuing, but I'm concerned about this:

I'm concerned that trying to push an idea like this will run right up against the issue of Homura's wish: that she wished to be the one to save Madoka, and that she would interpret this is her basically accomplishing nothing until Madoka finally had to to save herself.

That's why my last couple votes all wanted to emphasize the idea that Homura is the hero and we're just here to help her.
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You... do realize we literally just threw that entire part out for the foreseeable future due to complications, right?
 
Godwinson said:
I am the most worthless of the Infinite Sabrinas, then.
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Hey, I'm sure there are worse Sabrinas out there.

The ones who microwave tea with teabags still in the cup, for example.

It was just a good old metashadowrun. Maybe it's not you who is Sabrina. Maybe it's Firn. Or even Onmur. Though if that's the case, I kindly ask to stop this universe so I can saunter away.

:p
 
Kaizuki said:
I suppose you missed the subsequent posts then, where I talked about how things were broken and pains in the ass because of the issue that was brought up?
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You mean this bit?
Kaizuki said:
Yeah, it's a problem. It breaks the final section's Two, and it it makes Three a lot more of a pain in the ass to justify, but all desirable effects of the current vote are preserved and no new problems introduced (Madoka wanting Homura to keep going is still beneficial).
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I took that to mean more that you still wanted to go through with Step Three eventually, but thought you needed more time to come up with a work-around for the issue Redshirt raised.

I'm pointing out a different concern that I'm hoping we can keep in mind moving forward.
 
[x] Respect Homura. Don't push, be empathic, give her time/cleansing as needed, etc.

[x] Madoka dreams of Homura... as her hero. The impressions and instincts she picks up from the dreams drive her to trust Homura and get closer to her, not the opposite.
-[x] Madoka doesn't think Homura is a failure, and she doesn't think of Homura as a source of pain to be avoided. Insofar as she knows about Homura's mission, she approves of it.
--[x] Provide evidence and examples to support this if Homura asks for them - there's plenty to pick from.

[x] If Homura questions Madoka's judgement:
--[x] You think Madoka's right to trust in her. Without Homura, none of what's happening now would be possible. Madoka, Mami, Sayaka, Mitakihara itself, it would all be gone for good. The only reason that all of you can fight for a better future - the only reason Sabrina even exists! - is because Homura never quit. You owe everything to her.
 
[X] Vebyast

I'm about to post an updated tally, so I can more easily determine the points of each vote. And I figured I might as well share what it looks like at this current time.
Adhoc vote count started by Madou Sutegobana on Apr 21, 2018 at 6:27 PM, finished with 230 posts and 16 votes.
  • [X] Standing:
    -[X] Tone: empathetic, soft; care to not drive Homura to close herself off.
    -[X] Continuous cleanse.
    -[X] If at any point you feel it's correct to do so, give Homura time to compose herself.
    -[X] If at any point Homura asserts that regardless of what Madoka feels, she has hurt Madoka, break -- that is indicative that the intended point has been made.
    -[X] Try to avoid saying anything like "Madoka dreams about you fighting Walpurgisnacht." It's not relevant to the point you're trying to make.
    [X] Madoka's conscious doesn't get fully erased when Homura loops. Enough is carried back for her to judge Homura's actions. The judgement so far has been that Homura is good friend with her best interests at heart. Delivery: swift, serious, as one statement. Get to the "good friend" part quickly to avoid giving Homura nightmares. (Main point: Madoka endorses Homura's actions despite being capable of condemning them instead)
    -[X] Provide evidence for the previous line by explaining that the dreams have changed over the course of the loops and that Madoka gets information from previous loops in other ways also (gut instincts etc). (Main point: you're not bullshitting with the previous line. This is verifiable evidence that Madoka gets information from previous loops.)
    -[X] If Madoka wanted to give up or felt like she was being hurt by Homura's actions, the information from the previous loops would've reinforced that until Madoka gave up or rejected Homura. (Main point: explanation at length + in detail that Madoka really would react differently than she is/has if she felt that she was being hurt by the loops)
    --[X] Instead, the biggest thing being reinforced is Madoka's trust of Homura. (Main point: Madoka has decided + is continuing to decide that Homura is acting in her best interest)
    [x] Respect Homura. Don't push, be empathic, give her time/cleansing as needed, etc.
    [x] Madoka dreams of Homura... as her hero. The impressions and instincts she picks up from the dreams drive her to trust Homura and get closer to her, not the opposite.
    -[x] Madoka doesn't think Homura is a failure, and she doesn't think of Homura as a source of pain to be avoided. Insofar as she knows about Homura's mission, she approves of it.
    --[x] Provide evidence and examples to support this if Homura asks for them - there's plenty to pick from.
    [x] If Homura questions Madoka's judgement:
    --[x] You think Madoka's right to trust in her. Without Homura, none of what's happening now would be possible. Madoka, Mami, Sayaka, Mitakihara itself, it would all be gone for good. The only reason that all of you can fight for a better future - the only reason Sabrina even exists! - is because Homura never quit. You owe everything to her.
    [x] null
    [X] Keep being empathyBrina.
    -[x] Take care to keep Homura open and communicating.
    -[x] Take your time, give Homura however long she needs.
    [x] Long-term goal: Help Homura believe that the loops weren't failures. In particular:
    -[x] Progress was being made on "not being tricked" with every loop, and her Wish last loop was sufficiently well informed.
    -[x] Madoka was better off with Homura there, even if Homura wasn't perfectly successful immediately.
    [x] Start with your conclusions to help get Homura back on an even keel:
    -[x] Madoka's dreams tell her to trust Homura. This means that she thinks Homura has been doing the right thing and that she's working with Homura.
    -[x] Madoka was learning with every loop. Homura's perseverance and protection are how she could make a Wish without being tricked.
    [x] Supporting evidence, use as appropriate:
    -[x] Examples demonstrating Madoka's dreams. You're pretty sure she's asked if they've met before, for example.
    -[x] Madoka's trust in Homura isn't her usual general niceness. You think you've seen her unconsciously turning to Homura the same way she does to you.
    -[x] If Madoka was being hurt by her memories she'd be behaving completely differently. She's not as strong as Homura is, she'd have given up or worse.
    -[x] Madoka could have bad-ended the loops if she'd been tricked into a particularly bad Wish.
    -[X] Break to voting if any point needs more detail, or if Homura seems troubled. Don't be pushy.
    -[X] Relax. Comment:
    --[X] Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
    --[X] Raiding Yakuza for (4D) pocket money.
    [X] O&K.
    -[X] Probably a 'random' apartment.
    -[X] You don't know the Kure adults. Could be a bad idea.
    [X] Everyone.
    -[X] Explain your discomfort when dropping heavy topics. Ask if there's anything you can do to make it less stressful?
    -[X] Offer to watch the spar video.
    [X] Put in an order for the tracking devices.
    [X] If there's time, practice enchantment:
    -[X] Try using Control Magic...
    --[X] On Grief.
    --[X] To shape something into a Pocket Brina.
    [X] Standing:
    -[X] Tone: empathetic, soft; care to not drive Homura to close herself off.
    -[X] Continuous cleanse.
    -[X] If at any point you feel it's correct to do so, give Homura time to compose herself.
    -[X] If at any point Homura asserts that regardless of what Madoka feels, she has hurt Madoka, break -- that is indicative that the intended point has been made.
    -[X] Try to avoid saying anything like "Madoka dreams about you fighting Walpurgisnacht." It's not relevant to the point you're trying to make.
    [X] Madoka's conscious doesn't get fully erased when Homura goes back in time. Enough is carried back for her to judge Homura's actions. The judgement so far has been that Homura is good friend with her best interests at heart. Delivery: swift, serious, as one statement. Get to the "good friend" part quickly to avoid giving Homura nightmares. (Main point: Madoka endorses Homura's actions despite being capable of condemning them instead)
    -[X] Provide evidence for the previous line by explaining that the dreams have changed over the course of the loops and that Madoka gets information from previous loops in other ways also (gut instincts etc). (Main point: you're not bullshitting with the previous line. This is verifiable evidence that Madoka gets information from previous loops.)
    -[X] If Madoka wanted to give up or felt like she was being hurt by Homura's actions, the information from the previous loops would've reinforced that until Madoka gave up or rejected Homura. (Main point: explanation at length + in detail that Madoka really would react differently than she is/has if she felt that she was being hurt by the loops)
    --[X] Instead, the biggest thing being reinforced is Madoka's trust of Homura. (Main point: Madoka has decided + is continuing to decide that Homura is acting in her best interest)
    [X] SaltyWaffles
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Adhoc vote count started by Madou Sutegobana on Apr 21, 2018 at 6:30 PM, finished with 230 posts and 16 votes.
  • [X] Standing:
    -[X] Tone: empathetic, soft; care to not drive Homura to close herself off.
    -[X] Continuous cleanse.
    -[X] If at any point you feel it's correct to do so, give Homura time to compose herself.
    -[X] If at any point Homura asserts that regardless of what Madoka feels, she has hurt Madoka, break -- that is indicative that the intended point has been made.
    -[X] Try to avoid saying anything like "Madoka dreams about you fighting Walpurgisnacht." It's not relevant to the point you're trying to make.
    [X] Madoka's conscious doesn't get fully erased when Homura loops. Enough is carried back for her to judge Homura's actions. The judgement so far has been that Homura is good friend with her best interests at heart. Delivery: swift, serious, as one statement. Get to the "good friend" part quickly to avoid giving Homura nightmares. (Main point: Madoka endorses Homura's actions despite being capable of condemning them instead)
    -[X] Provide evidence for the previous line by explaining that the dreams have changed over the course of the loops and that Madoka gets information from previous loops in other ways also (gut instincts etc). (Main point: you're not bullshitting with the previous line. This is verifiable evidence that Madoka gets information from previous loops.)
    -[X] If Madoka wanted to give up or felt like she was being hurt by Homura's actions, the information from the previous loops would've reinforced that until Madoka gave up or rejected Homura. (Main point: explanation at length + in detail that Madoka really would react differently than she is/has if she felt that she was being hurt by the loops)
    --[X] Instead, the biggest thing being reinforced is Madoka's trust of Homura. (Main point: Madoka has decided + is continuing to decide that Homura is acting in her best interest)
    [x] Respect Homura. Don't push, be empathic, give her time/cleansing as needed, etc.
    [x] Madoka dreams of Homura... as her hero. The impressions and instincts she picks up from the dreams drive her to trust Homura and get closer to her, not the opposite.
    -[x] Madoka doesn't think Homura is a failure, and she doesn't think of Homura as a source of pain to be avoided. Insofar as she knows about Homura's mission, she approves of it.
    --[x] Provide evidence and examples to support this if Homura asks for them - there's plenty to pick from.
    [x] If Homura questions Madoka's judgement:
    --[x] You think Madoka's right to trust in her. Without Homura, none of what's happening now would be possible. Madoka, Mami, Sayaka, Mitakihara itself, it would all be gone for good. The only reason that all of you can fight for a better future - the only reason Sabrina even exists! - is because Homura never quit. You owe everything to her.
    [X] Keep being empathyBrina.
    -[x] Take care to keep Homura open and communicating.
    -[x] Take your time, give Homura however long she needs.
    [x] Long-term goal: Help Homura believe that the loops weren't failures. In particular:
    -[x] Progress was being made on "not being tricked" with every loop, and her Wish last loop was sufficiently well informed.
    -[x] Madoka was better off with Homura there, even if Homura wasn't perfectly successful immediately.
    [x] Start with your conclusions to help get Homura back on an even keel:
    -[x] Madoka's dreams tell her to trust Homura. This means that she thinks Homura has been doing the right thing and that she's working with Homura.
    -[x] Madoka was learning with every loop. Homura's perseverance and protection are how she could make a Wish without being tricked.
    [x] Supporting evidence, use as appropriate:
    -[x] Examples demonstrating Madoka's dreams. You're pretty sure she's asked if they've met before, for example.
    -[x] Madoka's trust in Homura isn't her usual general niceness. You think you've seen her unconsciously turning to Homura the same way she does to you.
    -[x] If Madoka was being hurt by her memories she'd be behaving completely differently. She's not as strong as Homura is, she'd have given up or worse.
    -[x] Madoka could have bad-ended the loops if she'd been tricked into a particularly bad Wish.
    [x] null
    -[X] Break to voting if any point needs more detail, or if Homura seems troubled. Don't be pushy.
    -[X] Relax. Comment:
    --[X] Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
    --[X] Raiding Yakuza for (4D) pocket money.
    [X] O&K.
    -[X] Probably a 'random' apartment.
    -[X] You don't know the Kure adults. Could be a bad idea.
    [X] Everyone.
    -[X] Explain your discomfort when dropping heavy topics. Ask if there's anything you can do to make it less stressful?
    -[X] Offer to watch the spar video.
    [X] Put in an order for the tracking devices.
    [X] If there's time, practice enchantment:
    -[X] Try using Control Magic...
    --[X] On Grief.
    --[X] To shape something into a Pocket Brina.
    [X] Standing:
    -[X] Tone: empathetic, soft; care to not drive Homura to close herself off.
    -[X] Continuous cleanse.
    -[X] If at any point you feel it's correct to do so, give Homura time to compose herself.
    -[X] If at any point Homura asserts that regardless of what Madoka feels, she has hurt Madoka, break -- that is indicative that the intended point has been made.
    -[X] Try to avoid saying anything like "Madoka dreams about you fighting Walpurgisnacht." It's not relevant to the point you're trying to make.
    [X] Madoka's conscious doesn't get fully erased when Homura goes back in time. Enough is carried back for her to judge Homura's actions. The judgement so far has been that Homura is good friend with her best interests at heart. Delivery: swift, serious, as one statement. Get to the "good friend" part quickly to avoid giving Homura nightmares. (Main point: Madoka endorses Homura's actions despite being capable of condemning them instead)
    -[X] Provide evidence for the previous line by explaining that the dreams have changed over the course of the loops and that Madoka gets information from previous loops in other ways also (gut instincts etc). (Main point: you're not bullshitting with the previous line. This is verifiable evidence that Madoka gets information from previous loops.)
    -[X] If Madoka wanted to give up or felt like she was being hurt by Homura's actions, the information from the previous loops would've reinforced that until Madoka gave up or rejected Homura. (Main point: explanation at length + in detail that Madoka really would react differently than she is/has if she felt that she was being hurt by the loops)
    --[X] Instead, the biggest thing being reinforced is Madoka's trust of Homura. (Main point: Madoka has decided + is continuing to decide that Homura is acting in her best interest)
Click to expand...
 
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Redshirt Army said:
--[ ] You think Madoka's right to trust in her. Without Homura, none of what's happening now would be possible. Madoka, Mami, Sayaka, Mitakihara itself, it would all be gone for good. The only reason that all of you can fight for a better future - the only reason Sabrina even exists! - is because Homura never quit. You owe everything to her.
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Is there any point of that last part? Seems counterproductive, like feeding her issues.
 
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I'm taking it.

[x] Continuous cleanse.
[x] Respect Homura. Don't push, be empathic, give her time/cleansing as needed, etc.

[x] Madoka dreams of Homura... as her hero. The impressions and instincts she picks up from the dreams drive her to trust Homura and get closer to her, not the opposite.
-[x] Madoka doesn't think Homura is a failure, and she doesn't think of Homura as a source of pain to be avoided. Insofar as she knows about Homura's mission, she approves of it.
--[x] Provide evidence and examples to support this if Homura asks for them - there's plenty to pick from.

[x] If Homura questions Madoka's judgement:
--[x] You think Madoka's right to trust in her. Without Homura, none of what's happening now would be possible. Madoka, Mami, Sayaka, Mitakihara itself, it would all be gone for good. The only reason that all of you can fight for a better future - the only reason Sabrina even exists! - is because Homura never quit. You owe everything to her.
 
Filraen said:
Is there any point of that last part? Seems counterproductive, like feeding her insecurities.
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The point is to counter her insecurities by giving her as much credit for possible for any success that we've had, so that she won't start thinking that she's useless or a failure.

Homura's wish was essentially to be the hero of the story. We want to make sure that she still feels like she is.
 
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