Knot theory demands the embedding an N-dimensional sphere (note: this is the number of dimensions that can uniquely describe a point on the sphere, so the "sphere" we all know about is a 2-sphere: latitude and longitude) in a space of dimension N+2. For example, the knots we're used to IRL are 1-spheres (that is, circles, where your point on the surface of the 1-sphere can be described with a single value: angle) embedded in 3-space. If an N-sphere is embedded in a space with more than N+2 dimensions, knots are not possible; the extra degree of freedom permits any crossing to be undone. For an illustration, imagine embedding a 0-sphere (2 points on a number line) entangled with a circle in 2-dimensional space versus in 3-dimensional space. In two dimensions, the situation looks like this:

You'll see that there's no way to unknot these: no matter how you slide your 0-sphere or 1-sphere around, you can't unlink them. But if you have a third dimension, it's now trivial to unknot things; you have a ring and a pair of dots, and it's trivial to lift the dots so they're not in the ring's plane, move them away from each other, and then bring them back into the ring's plane with both ends of the 0-sphere outside the 1-sphere:


Now let's extend this to the phenomenon of spontaneous knotting of agitated strings, aka the reason your earbuds always come out of your pocket tangled into a horrible mess. In short, what happens here is that knots can be made easily, by passing the ends of strings through loops, but once a knot is formed the presence of friction makes those knots more difficult to undo. Furthermore, if you get into the topology of knots, thinking of unknotting a string as it passing back through the same loop twice, the probability of an agitated string unknotting itself is somewhat similar to the probability of a random walk stopping, turning around, and exactly retracing its steps. Clearly this is low-probability.

So what happens when add higher dimensions? Well, knots become significantly easier to undo! There are more available movements that do not result in a knot, and even many that undo a knot. Indeed, as you add more and more dimensions, it becomes effectively impossible for knots to be a relevant mathematical concept. As before, recall the difficulty of "tying together" two dots and a circle.

Which brings me to my conclusion: Homura's hair actually is that fantastic because she's lifting parts of it into a higher dimension. The added dimension directly prevents the formations of knots for reasons rooted in the fundamental mathematics of geometry and topology.
 
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Knot theory demands the embedding an N-dimensional sphere (note: this is the number of dimensions that can uniquely describe a point on the sphere, so the "sphere" we all know about is a 2-sphere: latitude and longitude) in a space of dimension N+2. For example, the knots we're used to IRL are 1-spheres (that is, circles, where your point on the surface of the 1-sphere can be described with a single value: angle) embedded in 3-space. If an N-sphere is embedded in a space with more than N+2 dimensions, knots are not possible; the extra degree of freedom permits any crossing to be undone. For an illustration, imagine embedding a 0-sphere (2 points on a number line) entangled with a circle in 2-dimensional space versus in 3-dimensional space. In two dimensions, the situation looks like this:

You'll see that there's no way to unknot these: no matter how you slide your 0-sphere or 1-sphere around, you can't unlink them. But if you have a third dimension, it's now trivial to unknot things; you have a ring and a pair of dots, and it's trivial to lift the dots so they're not in the ring's plane, move them away from each other, and then bring them back into the ring's plane with both ends of the 0-sphere outside the 1-sphere:


Now let's extend this to the phenomenon of spontaneous knotting of agitated strings, aka the reason your earbuds always come out of your pocket tangled into a horrible mess. In short, what happens here is that knots can be made easily, by passing the ends of strings through loops, but once a knot is formed the presence of friction makes those knots more difficult to undo. Furthermore, if you get into the topology of knots, thinking of unknotting a string as it passing back through the same loop twice, the probability of an agitated string unknotting itself is somewhat similar to the probability of a random walk stopping, turning around, and exactly retracing its steps. Clearly this is low-probability.

So what happens when add higher dimensions? Well, knots become significantly easier to undo! There are more available movements that do not result in a knot, and even many that undo a knot. Indeed, as you add more and more dimensions, it becomes effectively impossible for knots to be a relevant mathematical concept. As before, recall the difficulty of "tying together" two dots and a circle.

Which brings me to my conclusion: Homura's hair actually is that fantastic because she's lifting parts of it into a higher dimension. The added dimension directly prevents the formations of knots for reasons rooted in the fundamental mathematics of geometry and topology.
There is a seperate theory of permutations and probability, that explains why my shoelaces eventually come untied.

It is essentially that there are many other states in which the shoelaces are untied than tied, and the constant adding of energy to the system eventually cycles them into one of those states.

Trying to mesh that theory with the theory of why cords tangle makes my head hurt and sanity slip.
 
It is essentially that there are many other states in which the shoelaces are untied than tied, and the constant adding of energy to the system eventually cycles them into one of those states.
Shoelaces are anchored at one end, the knot is placed exactly at the anchors, and then the loose ends are flung outward and in opposite directions. The ends of a string in a box are pushed back into the mass and the agitation serves to compact it. Furthermore, the paper I linked indicated that the string needed to be a certain length, relative to its rigidity, before starting to knot, and I suspect that the knotted portion of a shoelace is shorter than this length. I suspect that this is because you need enough length for the string to loop back on itself to present multiple options for forming crossings which become knots, which shoelaces aren't going to be able to do. As anecdata, I wear hiking boots day-to-day, and the extra-long laces for those boots do in fact get tangled up if I try to walk around with them unlaced. Finally, a secure shoe is under somewhat significant compression, and the securing knot will attempt to unknot to get rid of the potential energy stored in those stresses. Even if you had a shoe with laces that spontaneously knotted, you wouldn't get any useful knots out of them. I'll note that this last bit is borne out by my observations of my own longer shoelaces; they do get tangled, and occasionally spontaneously knot, but not in any useful way.
 
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I'd argue that her hair powers are actually linked to her ability to time travel. Tangled hair is high in entropy, since there are far more microstates where the hair is tangled than not. If the hair is below a certain tangledness threshold, determined by length and rigidity, then there are more adjacent microstates that increase hair tangledness than decrease it. Since hair starts out untangled, this means that without the input of extra energy, it generally gets more tangled over time, asymptotically approaching the tangledness threshold. Generally, you have to spend work to untangle hair, which increases the entropy of the world, in line with the second law of thermodynamics. However, she untangles her hair effortlessly. She doesn't need to expend work untangling her hair: it just untangles. Which means that she can decrease the entropy of her hair without raising entropy elsewhere, violating the second law of thermodynamics. Since we already know that Homura has powers related to reversing the arrow of time and that magical girls can acquire secondary powers thematically related to their other powers, it follows that Homura has the power to reverse the entropic arrow of time on her hair.
 
If Homura ever finds out about us building scientific and magical theories concerning her hair, she's gonna loop.
 
I'd argue that her hair powers are actually linked to her ability to time travel. Tangled hair is high in entropy, since there are far more microstates where the hair is tangled than not. If the hair is below a certain tangledness threshold, determined by length and rigidity, then there are more adjacent microstates that increase hair tangledness than decrease it. Since hair starts out untangled, this means that without the input of extra energy, it generally gets more tangled over time, asymptotically approaching the tangledness threshold. Generally, you have to spend work to untangle hair, which increases the entropy of the world, in line with the second law of thermodynamics. However, she untangles her hair effortlessly. She doesn't need to expend work untangling her hair: it just untangles. Which means that she can decrease the entropy of her hair without raising entropy elsewhere, violating the second law of thermodynamics. Since we already know that Homura has powers related to reversing the arrow of time and that magical girls can acquire secondary powers thematically related to their other powers, it follows that Homura has the power to reverse the entropic arrow of time on her hair.
"Homura, your hair has overcome entropy!"

*Cue Kyuubey asking three times for but a single stand of her hair*

*Cue Homura refusing because Kyuubey is a greedy little treacher*

*Cue Kyuubey creating three soul gems of divine radiance and a bunch of other shit going down as a result.*
 
[X] Homura.
-[X] Tone: Relief and concern.
-[X] Attempt hugs.
-[X] Talk about Homura.
--[X] Ask how she's doing, try to help her express her own feelings.
--[X] Acknowledge her efforts, thank her.
-[X] Take a moment to relax.
--[X] Comment about Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
--[X] Ask Homura about hitting another Yakuza base for (4D) pocket money.
-[X] Resist urge to hug Mami until timestop ends.

[X] O&K.
-[X] You'll talk with them first about including the Kure adults, and choose their place or a random apartment based on that.

[X] Put in an order for the tracking devices.

[X] Practice enchantment:
-[X] Try using Control Magic on Grief.
-[X] Try to use Control Magic to shape something into Pocket Brina shape.
 
You could also ask:

[] Ask Homura (or Homura and Sayaka once you're out of time stop?) if need be, when would she prefer to have this kind of stressful conversations? how would she like Sabrina to approach distressing topics? all of this tomakeit easier on her.

[] Try to use your mind/imagination/etc to give shape to the enchanted rocks or alter their physical propierties. [or something like that, but try to phrase itbetter than I did.] Give it to the others, to try it, and, uh, try to ban people from doing so, like Kirika does?

I mean, I may be wrong, but I think Mami here made te rock somehow more liquid with her thoughts:

"Try this, Mami?" you ask, handing the rock over to Mami. She takes it with a smile, and the rock squishes in her grip.

Mami giggles, drawing both Sayaka's attention from what's almost a game of patty-cake with power crystals. They look on curiously.

"I don't really get it," you confess. "Bit of a weird enchantment, isn't it?"

"I'm sure there must be something to it," Mami says. "It's similar to the way you control Grief, isn't it? You can just..." She smooshes the rock flat between her palms, suddenly all-too-liquid stone squeezing between her hands.
 
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There is a seperate theory of permutations and probability, that explains why my shoelaces eventually come untied.

It is essentially that there are many other states in which the shoelaces are untied than tied, and the constant adding of energy to the system eventually cycles them into one of those states.

Trying to mesh that theory with the theory of why cords tangle makes my head hurt and sanity slip.


You probably are tying your shoelaces in a very specific knot style, which it designed to be unknotted relatively easily.

If you wanted your shoelaces to stay tied, it would be trivial to tie very secure knots in them, which would have much less tendency to come untied, but then you'd need to work a lot harder to take your shoes off again.

If you just kept wearing your shoes, without messing with the laces, I suspect they would tend to develop knots as expected. But those knots wouldn't be convenient for holding your shoes on your feet.

(I solved this problem by switching to cowboy boots for my day-to-day footwear.)
 
You could also ask:

[] Ask Homura (or Homura and Sayaka once you're out of time stop?) if need be, when would she prefer to have this kind of stressful conversations? how would she like Sabrina to approach distressing topics? all of this to make it easier on her.

[] Try to use your mind/imagination/etc to give shape to the enchanted rocks or alter their physical propierties. [or something like that, but try to phrase itbetter than I did.] Give it to the others, to try it, and, uh, try to ban people from doing so, like Kirika does?

I mean, I may be wrong, but I think Mami here made te rock somehow more liquid with her thoughts:


I expect that we should listen to Mami, our better half. She wants us to realize something about enchantment, using our own noodle.

How many times has Firnagzen told us about our will?

Voting ----
Please add specific mention of emotional and cognitive effort during the enchantment process. Just saying 'control' is likely too weak to SCIENCE this action properly. If you all want a chibi statue, that might work. I think we might also be able to transform the rock into matter that isn't silica-alumina-carbonate anymore.

Make sure we go beyond empathy, and join Homura as she needs. Just comfort is helpful. Comfort, and help, is better. Focus on her, but do it at her pace as much as we may. There is time. I'd be happy to spend a week IRL doing this at our best competency.
 
[X] Homura.
-[X] Tone: Relief and concern.
-[X] Attempt hugs.
-[X] Talk about Homura.
--[X] Ask how she's doing, try to encourage her to express her feelings.
--[X] Acknowledge her efforts, thank her.
-[X] Take a moment to relax.
--[X] Comment about Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
--[X] Ask Homura about hitting another Yakuza base for (4D) pocket money.
-[X] Resist urge to hug Mami until timestop ends.
-[X] Ask everyone- if ever need be again, when would they each prefer to have this kind of stressful conversation? How would they like Sabrina to approach discussing topics? We don't want to cause unintentional stress, and we don't want to cause misunderstandings.
-[X] Also, if people want, we still have the fight video?



[X] O&K.
-[X] You'll talk with them first about including the Kure adults, and choose their place or a random apartment based on that.

[X] Put in an order for the tracking devices.

[X] Practice enchantment:
-[X] Try using Control Magic on Grief.
-[X] Try to use Control Magic to shape something into Pocket Brina shape.

Anyone able to tidy up my additions a bit more?
 
Just going to leave it here and bookmark it for my perusal:

Sul gym radii eq 100 met eq grif use radii
We control grif
Sul gym is we
Sul gym control grif and meatbrina
Increase radii
Grif Caw Caw
Profit.

I have a bad memory, and I really want to propose it for the next Science session, so the forum seems a logical place for me to store this. I could write it down in my notes, I guess, but then I'd probably forget about them.
 
[X] Homura.
-[X] Tone: Relief and concern.
-[X] Attempt hugs.
-[X] Talk about Homura.
--[X] Ask how she's doing, try to encourage her to express her feelings.
--[X] Acknowledge her efforts, thank her.
-[X] Take a moment to relax.
--[X] Comment about Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
--[X] Ask Homura about hitting another Yakuza base for (4D) pocket money.
-[X] Resist urge to hug Mami until timestop ends.
-[X] Ask everyone- if ever need be again, when would they each prefer to have this kind of stressful conversation? How would they like Sabrina to approach discussing topics? We don't want to cause unintentional stress, and we don't want to cause misunderstandings.
-[X] Also, if people want, we still have the fight video?



[X] O&K.
-[X] You'll talk with them first about including the Kure adults, and choose their place or a random apartment based on that.

[X] Put in an order for the tracking devices.

[X] Practice enchantment:
-[X] Try using Control Magic on Grief.
-[X] Try to use Control Magic to shape something into Pocket Brina shape.

Question: would it be worthwhile to ask Homura if she's ever met or heard much about Riona?
 
And back to the regular schedule

-[X] You'll talk with them first about including the Kure adults, and choose their place or a random apartment based on that.

I know what you mean by that, but there could arise a misunderstanding concerning us asking O&K's opinion, thus sharing information with them, which Oriko could use to subtly manipulate us according to the visions she remembers. Or something. Dunno how to remedy that, though, but Homu will probably raise this question ( which I might or might not have facilitated by giving the QM ideas. He'd have thought about it by himself, though. ).

-[X] Ask everyone- if ever need be again, when would they each prefer to have this kind of stressful conversation? How would they like Sabrina to approach discussing topics? We don't want to cause unintentional stress, and we don't want to cause misunderstandings.

mCooperative, I don't know what it means? Do you want them to schedule the difficult talks with us?

Well, anyway, I think that the idea of scheduling stressful topics specifically is a bit silly. Maybe generalize it? When we get out of the timestop, ask Sayaka, Mami and Homura when we can continue discussing the future of Megucadom. Or something.

Watching the fight video is good, though. Let's watch Brina wreck shit. Almost as cathartic as doing it yourself. :V
 
[X] Homura.
-[X] Tone: Relief and concern.
-[X] Attempt hugs.
-[X] Talk about Homura.
--[X] Ask how she's doing, try to encourage her to express her feelings.
--[X] Acknowledge her efforts, thank her.
-[X] Take a moment to relax.
--[X] Comment about Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
--[X] Ask Homura about hitting another Yakuza base for (4D) pocket money.
-[X] Resist urge to hug Mami until timestop ends.
-[X] Ask everyone- if ever need be again, when would they each prefer to have this kind of stressful conversation? How would they like Sabrina to approach discussing topics? We don't want to cause unintentional stress, and we don't want to cause misunderstandings.
-[X] Also, if people want, we still have the fight video?



[X] O&K.
-[X] You'll talk with them first about including the Kure adults, and choose their place or a random apartment based on that.

[X] Put in an order for the tracking devices.

[X] Practice enchantment:
-[X] Try using Control Magic on Grief.
-[X] Try to use Control Magic to shape something into Pocket Brina shape.

Anyone able to tidy up my additions a bit more?
Hmmm... OK.

[X] Homura.
-[X] Tone: Relief and concern.
-[X] Attempt hugs.
-[X] Talk about Homura.
--[X] Ask how she's doing, try to encourage her to express her feelings.
--[X] Acknowledge her efforts, thank her.
-[X] Take a moment to relax.
--[X] Comment about Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
--[X] Ask Homura about hitting another Yakuza base for (4D) pocket money.
-[X] Resist urge to hug Mami until timestop ends.

[X] Everyone.
-[X] Explain your discomfort when dropping heavy topics. Ask if there's anything you can do to make it less stressful, or at which times they'd rather have talks like this?
-[X] Offer to watch the spar video.

[X] O&K.
-[X] You'd like both to take O&K's wishes into account and for the Kure adults to be informed.
-[X] But you don't know them. It could be a bad idea.
-[X] A 'random' apartment should do, but you'll bring it up.
-[X] Kirika's reaction should be hilarious, at any rate.

[X] Put in an order for the tracking devices.

[X] If there's time, practice enchantment:
-[X] Try using Control Magic on Grief.
-[X] Try to use Control Magic to shape something into Pocket Brina shape.

Playing with the O&K lines. :V
 
Could someone explain what our goals are right now? What do we need from Homura, what did we want to talk to her about?
[X] Everyone.
-[X] Explain your discomfort when dropping heavy topics. Ask if there's anything you can do to make it less stressful, or at which times they'd rather have talks like this?
-[X] Offer to watch the spar video.

[X] O&K.
-[X] You'd like both to take O&K's wishes into account and for the Kure adults to be informed.
-[X] But you don't know them. It could be a bad idea.
-[X] A 'random' apartment should do, but you'll bring it up.
-[X] Kirika's reaction should be hilarious, at any rate.

[X] Put in an order for the tracking devices.

[X] If there's time, practice enchantment:
-[X] Try using Control Magic on Grief.
-[X] Try to use Control Magic to shape something into Pocket Brina shape.
No. We're not autopiloting past the end of this conversation. Finish talking before we move on. Please? Use the word count on, you know, actually helping Homura out. Or don't use the word count. These huge distant-horizon plans keep fucking us up, both by autopiloting us past situations we should have done something about and by distracting us from the moment.
 
mCooperative, I don't know what it means? Do you want them to schedule the difficult talks with us?

Well, anyway, I think that the idea of scheduling stressful topics specifically is a bit silly. Maybe generalize it? When we get out of the timestop, ask Sayaka, Mami and Homura when we can continue discussing the future of Megucadom. Or something.

I believe this question is intended more along the lines of well, at what kind of times do they prefer to have a stressful conversation? When they're in a good mood, to more easily deal with it? Or when they're in a bad mood already, so that their mood can't really get that much worse by the conversation?



Anyway, I've been rereading, and I noticed that at some point we tried to make a Soul Gem scanner. We didn't succeed, but Firn made it pretty clear that it was possible(and that he wasn't even being remotely subtle about it being possible).

Here's a second attempt, and some Mami advice.

I think a soul gem scanner(or something along those lines: perhaps a soul gem scanner isn't possible, but something with a very similar purpose is?) could be quite useful, and might give us some really useful information. We could learn about Oriko's gem condition, we could check if our own soul gem is different from others in some meaningful way(considering our strange origins), and perhaps we could even do something with Grief/Clear Seeds, considering they're kinda like Soul Gems? Might even give us some progress on the 'turn grief seeds into soul gems' project. ALSO WE CAN FINALLY CONFIRM ONCE AND FOR ALL WHETHER SABRINA IS A WITCH OR NOT

So, next time we're doing SCIENCE, perhaps we should consider giving this thing another shot?
 
We're just looking after Homu after all this stress.

[X] Homura.
-[X] Tone: Relief and concern.
-[X] Attempt hugs.
-[X] Look after Homura, ask how she's doing, encourage her to express her own feelings, acknowledge her efforts.
-[X] Relax.
--[X] Comment about Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
--[X] Ask Homura about hitting another Yakuza base for (4D) pocket money.
-[X] Break to voting if Homura seems troubled.

[X] Everyone.
-[X] Explain your discomfort when dropping heavy topics. Ask if there's anything you can do to make it less stressful, or at which times they'd rather have talks like this?
-[X] Offer to watch the spar video.

[X] O&K.
-[X] Probably a 'random' apartment.
-[X] You'll bring it up. You'd like for the Kure adults to be informed, but it could be a bad idea.
-[X] Kirika's reaction should be hilarious, at any rate.

[X] Put in an order for the tracking devices.

[X] If there's time, practice enchantment:
-[X] Try using Control Magic...
--[X] On Grief.
--[X] To shape something into a Pocket Brina.
 
I believe this question is intended more along the lines of well, at what kind of times do they prefer to have a stressful conversation? When they're in a good mood, to more easily deal with it? Or when they're in a bad mood already, so that their mood can't really get that much worse by the conversation?



Anyway, I've been rereading, and I noticed that at some point we tried to make a Soul Gem scanner. We didn't succeed, but Firn made it pretty clear that it was possible(and that he wasn't even being remotely subtle about it being possible).

Here's a second attempt, and some Mami advice.

I think a soul gem scanner(or something along those lines: perhaps a soul gem scanner isn't possible, but something with a very similar purpose is?) could be quite useful, and might give us some really useful information. We could learn about Oriko's gem condition, we could check if our own soul gem is different from others in some meaningful way(considering our strange origins), and perhaps we could even do something with Grief/Clear Seeds, considering they're kinda like Soul Gems? Might even give us some progress on the 'turn grief seeds into soul gems' project. ALSO WE CAN FINALLY CONFIRM ONCE AND FOR ALL WHETHER SABRINA IS A WITCH OR NOT

So, next time we're doing SCIENCE, perhaps we should consider giving this thing another shot?
Besides the idea that's been floating around about making some sort of intermediary to 'translate' between us and a Seeded Witch...

... Hmmm... Maybe instead of a 'Soul' Scanner, try to scan for... emotion/magic?

[Q] Poke a Seed with the Feather.


EDIT: Crap, we haven't checked Kuroki's phone yet. We probably should... though we could do it after dinner, too.
 
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@LadyLynn

We, uh, did make a soul scanner already. It's how we know Oriko's soul was twisted into a Klein bottle.

"Mm," you say, focusing your attention on the Grief. A scanner. You press your hands together, the Grief flowing like putty and congealing into a rigid shape as you withdraw your hands.

Witch.

You get... a screen. One of those vaguely cartoony ones in dark green, concentric circles marked out in a lighter green ones, and two handles on either side of the screen. On the screen, you can see a fuzzy image of what's on the other side.

"It looks like a toy," Kirika notes, nodding solemnly.

"Yep," you agree, pointing it at her. You see the outline of her body and a pseudo-nervous system limned in green fire, delicate traceries spinning across the room to her Soul Gem. It's... more or less the same thing as you see with your Wish-borne senses, disappointingly.

But...

You take a closer look at Oriko's Soul Gem, with both the sensor and your senses.

There's... something strange. It's almost like her Soul Gem's turning in on itself slowly, rotating through odd geometries you can sort of feel. Now that you're looking, it's something like a Klein bottle, burning magic twisting in on itself.
 
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