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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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I actually quite like the idea of bringing in a respected legal scholar. We can do that in the same visit where we blow the mind of the physics professor we approach with our custom fabrication business plan.
 
Onmur said:
Not only have we spent five minutes around them,
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I was under the impression the only time we'd encountered the Miki's were at the hospital, namely with the mother unconcious and the father cracking a joke or two about Sabriyaka pairing. Was there some other meaningful encounter?

Onmur said:
We were already gonna try and bring as many adults as possible into the know
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Citation Please, on the royal "We" ? Just because you and Redshirt make half the votes doesn't mean you should bring up "we have decided" to shut down a question clearly being re-argued here.

Redshirt Army said:
I am vehemently against a future situation where we tell a bunch of families impacted by meguca actions that "we've already decided how this situation is going to be resolved based on the internal standards of a bunch of teenagers, fuck off muggles."
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Funny, having read dozens of other series with a Masquerade present, I'm vehemetly against smashing the system and revealing to the world "hey physics as you know it is a lie, superpowers are real, a small subset of people can do amazing system-breaking things and would be super useful if press-ganged. Morale doesn't even matter anymore thanks to us handing out a cure. Oh, and theres a possibility suffering makes little girls more likely to gain magic." in an extremely rushed manner (a timescale of weeks or months, not years or decades) before we've even made steps to unify /our local region/.

Moreso, Homura isn't a teenager by now (legally competent to make her own decisions.... well a professional psychiatrist was already being discussed :V ) , I have no idea what age Sabrina should count as, I don't get the impression Nadya or Building-Girl are teenagers, there are QUITE A LOT of potential meguca around who are just as valid and qualified by the chronology rule-of-thumb that is age.

Redshirt Army said:
What possible reason makes it right to read in some totally unrelated professionals while keeping families directly affected by the situation out of the loop?
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What possible reason makes it right to choose a randomly selected person who happened to squirt out a crotch goblin on a whim, as more qualified and prepared to deal with the violently-insane (Anri/Hijiri/Soujuus/others) and the clinically impaired (any of the obvious PTSD or Depression candidates) than those who have been trained and certified by the same source of standards and authority as the rest of the nation functions on?
 
@Skelm

As I was saying, we, the posters, need to do a bit of research.

All this stuff exists already, as academic work or actual history. There is an established discipline.

Some of the odd sounding things are functional at a tribal level. Most of our "aspirations" represent a nation-state level of culture. To some degree, the best solution will depend upon the total population, and final density of our culture. Towns on the American frontier would have different levels of criminal justice as they increased in population. It is a precedent.

This makes Shizume Magica more of a Texas Ranger than not? /jk

Vebyast said:
I actually quite like the idea of bringing in a respected legal scholar. We can do that in the same visit where we blow the mind of the physics professor we approach with our custom fabrication business plan.
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It could work. I for one agree. But how are you going to get us all to vote for it? "Vote" is always our limiting resource. Time is nearly as tight.
 
The Narrator said:
Well, I definitely wouldn't ask them. The Japanese court system is wildly skewed towards the prosecution, and would be considered grossly unconstitutional in the U.S.
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Just so. OTOH, the local adults probably think it's just ducky.

How do we move the adults into 'open negotiation' position? I put up my plan already.

Further, let me call your position. Therapist discussion. It's up on our table now. As I see it, you might craft your own more perfect vote, or support an option that includes therapist planning IC right now. Will you act?
 
Contrary to what anime would tell you, emotional teenagers are not, in fact, the best people to be designing court systems. I'm very much on board with getting an actual legal scholar on this in PMAS, and doing that is going to be much, much easier if we use the Shizuki's connections to short-circuit issues of proving our credentials.

And yes, they are teenagers. Homura has been reliving a nightmare hundreds and hundreds of times while having, if anything, emotionally backslid in the process, and is grossly unqualified to contribute to this.

There are single digit numbers of magical girls older than twenty in Japan, and Nadia herself is under nineteen. I doubt there are more then double digit numbers globally. Attrition rates for magical girls are, literally, murderous. While I doubt Yuki is truly eleven, I'd be astonished if she was older than sixteen or so. Hunting witches (and nearly always dropping out of school to do so) does not qualify you to make this kind of decision.

Skelm said:
If you want to give the Miki's the right to seek financial compensation from Oriko, then that's fine. But measures intended for deterrence or punishment are matters of public policy that shouldn't be influenced by the victims.
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Victims shouldn't influence those cases, no. Should they be informed of them?

Racoras said:
What possible reason makes it right to choose a randomly selected person who happened to squirt out a crotch goblin on a whim
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Because their child got hurt, they care about them, and keeping that secret is police state horseshit? The public has a right to information about court cases, and secret courts are a step down a ludicrously dark path towards Empress Sabrina's future dictatorship.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Contrary to what anime would tell you, emotional teenagers are not, in fact, the best people to be designing court systems. I'm very much on board with getting an actual legal scholar on board with this in PMAS, and doing that is going to be much, much easier if we use the Shizuki's connections to short-circuit issues of proving our credentials.

And yes, they are teenagers. Homura has been reliving a nightmare hundreds and hundreds of times while having, if anything, emotionally backslid in the process, and is grossly unqualified to contribute to this.

There are single digit numbers of magical girls older than twenty in Japan, and Nadia herself is under nineteen. While I doubt Yuki is truly eleven, I'd be astonished if she was older than sixteen or so. Hunting witches (and nearly always dropping out of school to do so) does not qualify you to make this kind of decision.
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Well put. Intention is clearer to me with action. Are we taking action upon this thinking? How does it fit in your vote?

Homura is far into the PTSD spectrum. But setting requires that she is a sovereign, one amongst many. We must convince her to put her power behind wisdom from another person. This requires such to be evaluated by her. Therefore it must become a known quantity, this person must exist. It's working in our relationship with her.
 
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[X] How does Mami personally feel about Oriko and Kirika? Listen.

[X] Telepathy Masami & Hiroko re: Ono, Kuroki.

[X] Science session: vote in abeyance.
-[X] Try moving Grief though higher dimensional axes.
-[X] Deploy Cardcaptor Sayaka jokes.

[X] Discuss O&K with Sayaka and Homura:
-[X] Respect their feelings; err on the side of caution. Stay positive.
-[X] Ask what they think should happen with O&K.
-[X] Bring up the long term viability of the house arrest:
--[X] Restitution: Financial reinbursement? Continuing to use Oriko to help others?
--[X] Complications: Mental effects of confinement; Kirika's family.
--[X] Alternatives: Relocation, surveillance, restricted freedom with chaperones/tracking devices? (Sayaka's clones?)
--[X] Justice?: Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. If your alliance grows... should that change? How? You don't want to unilaterally make decrees.
-[X] Tentatively propose involving adults, after discussion with the Shizukis this weekend. Legal experts? Therapists? The Mikis?

150 words.

Is this clear enough?

("Axes" is, in fact, the plural of "axis".)
 
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Racoras said:
Citation Please, on the royal "We" ? Just because you and Redshirt make half the votes doesn't mean you should bring up "we have decided" to shut down a question clearly being re-argued here.
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If I may suggest a clarification? This seems to speak directly to the meta-question: what is your "long game" strategy? You guys might be headed towards slightly different goals. Maybe have your own conversation, and decide if your long-term agree, or not?

@Redshirt Army - I respect that.
 
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HeroCycle said:
My remix.


[X] Mami's advice about Kures? Listen to her.

[X] Telepathy Masami & Hiroko about Ono and Kuroki.
[X] Science session: vote in abeyance. "willpower training item."
-[X] Rotate, translate Grief though higher dimensional axis.
[X] Speak with Mami, Homura about hiring therapists.
[X] Discuss Justice with Sayaka and Homura:
-[X] Magical girls can't use mundane courts and enforcement. Judges are never teens IRL. You don't want to unilaterally make decrees. But we are gaining criminals.
--[X] We need proper justice system. Sayaka should make a study.
--[X] Consult legal theorists in person.
-[X] Propose involving the adults, First the Shizuki's, next Miki's. Discuss onboarding.
-[X] How do they feel about using O&K so far? Is using Oriko to help others a form of restitution?
--[X] How to minimize risks while being good people? Is monitoring tech useful?

I do, strongly, expect us to make Sayaka think, research, choose and support her decision on what she wants from O&K. That needs time, and ultimately she will be a better person for doing that work. A Hero of Justice is normally concerned with the practical philosophy of enforcement, so this is her chance.
We should have that talk with her now. Our best community answer will result after this is done, and we need to stop stumbling now (before the prison population goes up again!)

Willpower figures in the magic business. Help! It's what we do. Creating a portable item that lets one of us level willpower, without magic use, is the kind of hax we need. Sayaka, and then later any of our girls who don't have Veteran Tier need to gain level fast to stabilize us. But we don't want to base our civilization on war and witch hunts. Training is one way to get our town stronger. Make the item a game, and training will be automatic. Level up our newbs, and safety is everybody's job.


[] Enchantment of an object to attract Grief, and testing the capacity to keep some when outside our range. Grief kinesis as a 'magic,' alone.

[] Enchantment of arbitrary object, to act as a sensory extension. All five senses can be experienced from the location of this object, over large distances. Secondary goal, it can be 'logged in to' by girl other than the caster. (We make a prototype security monitor for Homura)

[] Sayaka tries to put a single 'power' and a certain 'runtime' of magic into an object. Mundane-use magic items with serious uses. (Invisibility token?)




I would prefer not to question this directly. Let us work on establishing or removing support, and get our allies committed to convincing us of their views. We need to get to a general solution anyway. Prisoners are a 'thing' in Mitakihara, so it is our job to do it best.
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Changed my vote a little.



The Narrator said:
We're already leaning more towards Scandinavia, where the lives of prisoners are as comfortable and normal as possible.

Removing anything else I was going to say in the spirit of deescalation.
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We intend yo do Madokami's work? Her angel is right over there? lol

All cool, please 'speak with your vote.'
 
Onmur said:
So, on re-read, I have to make some corrections to my previous post about Oriko's side manga:

One: I don't know why I thought Oriko was three at the time her mom died. She was a child, but her age wasn't stated anywhere that I know.

Two, and I found most terrifying, it is heavily implied in the manga that the one to arrange Oriko's mom 'car accident' was none other than Oriko's dad.

Back when I was first reading this, I was completely tired and barely staying awake, so I completely missed it, but I can see it clearly now.
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So let me see if I can put together what I've heard so far...

Oriko's dad was born wealthy.

He fell out with his family because they were evil.

He became a police officer, got married, and had a daughter.

And then suddenly he was Satan.

He arranged for his wife to die. He was found to be corrupted and hung himself.

Jerkass victims take out their grudges on his daughter. Which makes even less sense if their grudges aren't financial in nature. Not that that would excuse them, just would at least follow some sort of logic chain.


So did Oriko's dad get witch kissed by a Witch of villain balling?



Revisiting the Banach Tarsky Paradox, wouldn't infinite mass grief mean that we couldn't compress it any further unless we used the Banach - Tarsky process?

So either the grief isn't an ideal solid, or we are already unconsciously using the Banach Tarsky process whenever we compress grief down. Actually I just realized there is a third option, that grief is ideal solid particles that are only a continuous ideal solid when squeezes into the smallest we make it.
 
Matou Sutegobana said:
Revisiting the Banach Tarsky Paradox, wouldn't infinite mass grief mean that we couldn't compress it any further unless we used the Banach - Tarsky process?
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Banach-Tarsky has nothing to do with mass or density. As long as the object is an ideal mathematical solid (aka not made of subcomponent particles at any level, truly infinitely divisible), it applies.
 
Man, I've been regoing over the Oriko mangas and they're a bit of a convoluted mess.

Matou Sutegobana said:
Jerkass victims take out their grudges on his daughter. Which makes even less sense if their grudges aren't financial in nature. Not that that would excuse them, just would at least follow some sort of logic chain.
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Hisaomi was found falsifying fund records and killed himself before the police could interrogate him. So, basically abusing power to steal from the city bit by bit.

He commited suicide by hanging himself at his own home, so no bets as to who found him.

Matou Sutegobana said:
He fell out with his family because they were evil.
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He... well, he had contact with his family, specially the head of the family still supported him. I mean, of course he did, more power for himself, to have more politicians in his pocket, even if the family didn't hold Hisaomi in high regard.

How little the Mikuni cared for Hisaomi, or how Evulz they are, is pointed by Oriko when she randomly crosses paths with Kimihide Mikuni, her uncle and Hisaomi's brother. She pretends to be polite and all, but internally she's seething, thinking how he was the first to throw her father to the wolves.

When Hisaomi died, Kimihide gave a super sad speech... apologizing for his brother behavior, so the people would feel sorry for him, then he cut all communication with Oriko. And, again, didn't show up to his brother's funeral.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
-[X] Try moving Grief though higher dimensional axes.

("Axes" is, in fact, the plural of "axis".)
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... What in gods name possessed you to turn that back? Please tell me you're not doing this for the "axes" pun. Or the wordcount.

Seriously, I proposed "make a simple 4d shape" for a reason and that reason is that it isolates a lot of potential variables. The bulk of the grief remains with us but it still does move in 4-space which helps isolate for how fast and far it can go in that direction. I know "Toying with it" was a bit obtuse for moving it in fourspace to shift it's cross section to be smaller, while keeping a portion of it anchored so we can experiment with 3-deminsional volume changes, but the fundamental point is that this does break up the experiment into sections, without going all or nothing on lateral shift without breaking it down further.
 
The Phoenixian said:
Please tell me you're not doing this for the "axes" pun.
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I'm afraid I can't do that, Phoenix. :V

Still, here:

[X] How does Mami personally feel about Oriko and Kirika? Listen.

[X] Telepathy Masami & Hiroko re: Ono, Kuroki.

[X] Science session: vote in abeyance.
-[X] Toy with simple 4D grief shapes.
-[X] Deploy Cardcaptor Sayaka jokes.

[X] Discuss O&K with Sayaka and Homura:
-[X] Respect their feelings; err on the side of caution. Stay positive.
-[X] Ask what they think should happen with O&K.
-[X] Bring up the long term viability of the house arrest:
--[X] Restitution: Financial reinbursement? Continuing to use Oriko to help others?
--[X] Complications: Mental effects of confinement; Kirika's family.
--[X] Alternatives: Relocation, surveillance, restricted freedom with chaperones/tracking devices? (Sayaka's clones?)
--[X] Justice?: Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. If your alliance grows... should that change? How? You don't want to unilaterally make decrees.
-[X] Tentatively propose involving adults, after discussion with the Shizukis this weekend. Legal experts? Therapists? The Mikis?

149 words.
 
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[X] How does Mami personally feel about Oriko and Kirika? Listen.

[X] Telepathy Masami & Hiroko re: Ono, Kuroki.

[X] Science session: vote in abeyance.
-[X] Toy with simple 4D grief shapes.
-[X] Deploy Cardcaptor Sayaka jokes.

[X] Discuss O&K with Sayaka and Homura:
-[X] Respect their feelings; err on the side of caution. Stay positive.
-[X] Ask what they want.
-[X] Discuss long term viability of house arrest:
--[X] Restitution: Financial reimbursement? Continued community service? Oriko enjoyed doing good today.
--[X] Complications: Ongoing psychological harm from confinement; Kirika's family.
--[X] Alternatives: Relocation, surveillance, restricted freedom with chaperones/tracking devices? Sayaklones?
---[x] If Sayaklones, can Sayaka handle it? You'd worry about them keeping their cool around each other.
--[X] Justice?: Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. Should that change? How? When? You don't like making decrees.
-[X] Tentatively propose involving more adults with the Shizukis' help. Legal experts, therapists, the Mikis...
  • Save some words in some places. Not that it matters, since this is 128 words.
  • Mention that Oriko really enjoyed helping today. She's still trying to do good.
  • On the Sayaklones, specifically challenge Sayaka. Simultaneously demonstrates our viewpoint that we think they're not a threat, and gives Sayaka a reason to prove us wrong.
  • Strengthen statement re: mental health issues.
 
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[X] How does Mami personally feel about Oriko and Kirika? Listen.

[X] Telepathy Masami & Hiroko re: Ono, Kuroki.

[X] Science session: vote in abeyance.
-[X] Toy with simple 4D grief shapes.
-[X] Deploy Cardcaptor Sayaka jokes.

[X] Discuss O&K with Sayaka and Homura:
-[X] Respect their feelings; err on the side of caution. Stay positive.
-[X] Ask what they want.
-[X] Discuss long term viability of house arrest:
--[X] Restitution: Financial reimbursement? Continued community service? Oriko enjoyed doing good today.
--[X] Complications: Ongoing psychological harm from confinement; Mikuni mansion; Kirika's family.
--[X] Alternatives: Relocation, surveillance, restricted freedom with chaperones/tracking devices? Sayaklones?
---[x] If Sayaklones, can Sayaka handle it? You'd worry about them keeping their cool around each other.
--[X] Justice?: Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. Should that change? How? When? You don't like making decrees.
-[X] Tentatively propose involving more adults with the Shizukis' help. Legal experts, therapists, the Mikis...
  • Separate the simple fact that they're being confined (which is messing with Oriko's "go out and do good" drive) out from the fact that they're being confined in the house where Oriko found her father hanging from the ceiling. This should improve our chances of getting them at least relocated if we can't get anything else.
 
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