- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Agreed. Mentioning the Mikis, and bringing up an actionable plan of going through the Shizuki's, who are already partially in the know, is much better than staying vague here.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
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Agreed. Mentioning the Mikis, and bringing up an actionable plan of going through the Shizuki's, who are already partially in the know, is much better than staying vague here.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
We still desperate need to employ a psychiatrist, and Oriko will need their services nearly as much as Anri will. Maybe it's time to actually tell someone that we intend to do so.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
If that's the case then I feel it better to remove the line entirely: Both the Miki and the Shizukis are involved... in ways that leave them biased. Through being victims of arson in one case and personal injury of a family member in the other. That vote phrasing wasn't matter of staying vague, it was because, if we need any kind of help, they cannot be counted on being neutral in rendering it.
Editing post.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Good point.
[X] How does Mami personally feel about Oriko and Kirika? Listen to her.
[X] Telepathy Masami & Hiroko about Ono and Kuroki.
[X] Science session: vote in abeyance.
-[X] Try making a grief-tesseract and toying with it.
-[X] Deploy Cardcaptor Sayaka jokes.
[X] Discuss O&K with Sayaka and Homura:
-[X] Respect their feelings; err on the side of caution. Stay positive.
-[X] Ask what they think should happen with O&K.
-[X] Bring up the long term viability of the house arrest:
--[X] Restitution: Financial reinbursement? Continuing to use Oriko to help others?
--[X] Complications: Mental effects of confinement; Kirika's family.
--[X] Alternatives: Relocation, surveillance, restricted freedom with chaperones/tracking devices?
--[X] Justice?: Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. If your alliance grows... should that change? How? You don't want to unilaterally make decrees.
-[X] Propose involving adults, particularly the Mikis. (After discussion with the Shizuki's?) Actual trained therapists?
Who said they're there to be neutral? They're the aggrieved parties... but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be informed of what's going on. How is it right to withhold this information from them?
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Keep in mind who we're dealing with, here?
Right now, there's nobody more biased about Oriko than Homura, and Sayaka is not far from there.
Not only do the Mikis have a right to know, they seem to be reasonable adults who will most likely be far less biased than Homura and less stubborn than Sayaka.
I believe involving the Mikis will be a general upgrade in the situation. Homura and Sayaka (and us) will have less decision power about the matter, and that means less % of decision power going towards murder and less of this weighing on Sayaka's troubled shoulders.
We will need to lean heavily on the Shizukis who, while not impartial, seem to be just very well adjusted. Hitomi's mom knowing about meguca beforehand might help, too, as she knows some of the shit meguca have to deal with firsthand.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Depends on what the repercussions are going to be. If they're going to flip out about their daughter having turned into an abomination unto nature and child soldier vigilante monster hunter and not want her to be involved with us anymore--which would hardly be an unlikely or unusual response for a parent to have to such a revelation--then telling them could do a lot of damage to her, us, the team and the city.
It's easy for Mrs. Shizuki to be chill about it. She already knew meguca were a thing and Hitomi isn't one. It's going to hit the Mikis a lot harder.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
The assumption of them being there to help has been a point that more than myself has read into the phrasing of the vote.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
They're brought up in the "how to handle O&K" part of the vote, which implies that we're proposing them as part of the solution for the O&K situation.
mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
In my view, it's less that they shouldn't be informed of what's going on, and more, if they're the first adults in the know (over, say, a trained psychologist or any neutral party), they're going to get the impression that they have precedence in deciding what happens to O&K in some respect. Like. During the whole table-kun debacle, Hitomi made her point that we ought not have the right to presume judgement, or however the quote was in its exactness. A set of adults, seeing a bunch of kids trying to run a semi-feudal semi-nation-state-alliance system, are not going to be less likely to come to that conclusion, I think. But, with the way things are heading with the grand plans for saving mecugakind, for awhile, Sabrina and co. are going to run into times where they need to be judgement, because other meguca won't be willing to listen to the reason of non-magical law. (To say nothing of the number of different flavors of local laws that we'll inevitably run up against, in time.) If we have at least part of a decided system, preferably formed with consultation with a neutral and trained party, in place about "this is how we deal with grievances of non-meguca toward meguca, this is how punishment works, this is where it's flexible, this is where it's not", then we can hold that authority here, and keep our aggrieved Mikis and Shizukis from thinking that, as adults, they have the right to pass judgement where we do not. And frankly, I think they have too high a chance of mucking things up, if they do that.*
*Not saying we should be unilateral; this is my overly complex way of saying: Adding more uncontrolled moving parts (in this case, adults) into a precariously balanced system, is something that should only be done with the greatest of caution, and only at which point we're sure the benefits outweigh the risks. I don't think we have that surety yet.
We've interacted with them for all of like, an hour. Or- a fraction of a day. At most. That's not enough time to get to know how reasonable some adults are, in my opinion- Sayaka's turned out okay so I don't think they're secretly hiding being competitors for Bad People or anything, but you don't get a sense of how folks are gonna react to big situations in that little time.
Also, this, too, yeah.
I do not think this point is going to make Homura more likely to want to bring the Mikis or anyone else into anything regarding Oriko and Kirika, ever. Homura will act unilaterally about them regardless of who holds the "decision power", if she finds them to be a threat anyway- and her going against that "decision power" if it comes to that would make it harder for her, to live in the world after Walpurgisnacht. Having known power over how they're not dead yet, is probably at least a little of the reason they're not dead yet.
In accounting with all that:
[X] How does Mami personally feel about Oriko and Kirika? Listen to her.
[X] Telepathy Masami & Hiroko re: Ono, Kuroki.
[X] Science session: vote in abeyance.
-[X] Try making a grief-tesseract and toying with it.
-[X] Deploy Cardcaptor Sayaka jokes.
[X] Discuss O&K with Sayaka and Homura:
-[X] Respect their feelings; err on the side of caution. Stay positive.
-[X] Ask what they think should happen with O&K.
-[X] Bring up the long term viability of the house arrest:
--[X] Restitution: Financial reimbursement? Continuing using Oriko to help others?
--[X] Complications: Mental effects of confinement; Kirika's family.
--[X] Alternatives: Relocation, surveillance, restricted freedom with chaperones/tracking devices?
--[X] Justice?: Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. If your alliance grows... should that change? How? You don't want to unilaterally make decrees.
---[x] How to minimize risks while being good people?
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Keep in mind this isn't just about Oriko. We were already gonna try and bring as many adults as possible into the know, and bringing in the Mikis is something we're mentioning to Homura and Sayaka not because it wasn't part of the plans, but because it's relevant right now.
For the purpose of stepping away from the isolationist power fantasy KB feeds to Magical Girls. As it is right now, it would seem the small group of teenagers are the right and just judge, jury and executioner of whatever punishment they decide would fit Oriko's crime.
We need to break that. This isn't something a bunch of teens should decide and act on alone, not only because they're teens; there are others who are also victims and have a right to intervene.
In any case, we're not gonna go to the Mikis, point them at Oriko, and just tell them she burned their home. We're gonna need to do far more than that, in informing them properly of everything they need to know (oh hey, your daughter sold her soul because she's being targeted by a murderous mysterious magical being), and giving them time to come to terms with things before they get to properly weight on the Oriko issue. They shouldn't be allowed to act in anger, and this is, I think, one of the main reasons we need the Shizukis. And hell, maybe we'll want to bring the Kanames into this at this point already, too.
The more reasonable people can weight on the issue, the less the angriest of them will make decisions in anger.
For the purpose of stepping away from the isolationist power fantasy KB feeds to Magical Girls. As it is right now, it would seem the small group of teenagers are the right and just judge, jury and executioner of whatever punishment they decide would fit Oriko's crime.
We need to break that. This isn't something a bunch of teens should decide and act on alone, not only because they're teens; there are others who are also victims and have a right to intervene.
In any case, we're not gonna go to the Mikis, point them at Oriko, and just tell them she burned their home. We're gonna need to do far more than that, in informing them properly of everything they need to know (oh hey, your daughter sold her soul because she's being targeted by a murderous mysterious magical being), and giving them time to come to terms with things before they get to properly weight on the Oriko issue. They shouldn't be allowed to act in anger, and this is, I think, one of the main reasons we need the Shizukis. And hell, maybe we'll want to bring the Kanames into this at this point already, too.
The more reasonable people can weight on the issue, the less the angriest of them will make decisions in anger.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
You're prevaricating. Keeping the Shizukis and Mikis out of the loop "because they might cause issues" is exactly the reasoning that made us keep quiet to Sayaka about Oriko for far too long- and I think we can agree that was a mistake.
What possible reason makes it right to read in some totally unrelated professionals while keeping families directly affected by the situation out of the loop?
I'm putting involving the Mikis and Shizukis in the "how do we handle Oriko" section because the Mikis and Shizukis should be involved in how we handle Oriko.
I am vehemently against a future situation where we tell a bunch of families impacted by meguca actions that "we've already decided how this situation is going to be resolved based on the internal standards of a bunch of teenagers, fuck off muggles."
Not involving the Mikis and Shizukis is, to put it plainly, a fucking terrible precedent. Affected normal families must be accounted for, however our future "justice system" plays out - both in the positive case like the Mikis, and in abusive cases like Oriko or Yuma.
What possible reason makes it right to read in some totally unrelated professionals while keeping families directly affected by the situation out of the loop?
I'm putting involving the Mikis and Shizukis in the "how do we handle Oriko" section because the Mikis and Shizukis should be involved in how we handle Oriko.
I am vehemently against a future situation where we tell a bunch of families impacted by meguca actions that "we've already decided how this situation is going to be resolved based on the internal standards of a bunch of teenagers, fuck off muggles."
Not involving the Mikis and Shizukis is, to put it plainly, a fucking terrible precedent. Affected normal families must be accounted for, however our future "justice system" plays out - both in the positive case like the Mikis, and in abusive cases like Oriko or Yuma.
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Because the professionals are suited to and capable of helping make the situation better? Families do not always make things better. That why youth counselors exist in the first place.
Reading families in on what's going on is already something that we've started putting in motion, and I'm fine with continuing it as long as the girl in question thinks it's wise.
But if you're going to decide that the family should automatically be told based on grand ideals about who has "the right to know" then you should consider that by all rights, we should be telling the entire world what's going on.
Earth has been secretly invaded by aliens that want to harvest humanity's children as a power source. A roving band of criminal superhumans is working their way across Asia. What's essentially a kaiju is about to hit a major city. And a state of de facto war exists that could result in an existential threat that will wipe out all life on the planet at the end of the month.
These are all things that the entire human population has a right to know. But we don't try to broadcast this worldwide. Why not?
Because we think it would have negative repercussions. So we're keeping seven billion people ignorant of the fact that they might all die soon.
I think you mean "Find Tsubaki Mikoto," Suzune's mentor, who's a rare adult meguca. And we need to do this anyway, and soon, because otherwise she's going to die, and set off a chain of events that will kill a lot of other girls.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
No. That's not the reason, and I'll thank you not to presume to know my motivations when you clearly don't.
I would dearly love to blow the lid off the masquerade. The masquerade is one of the Incubators absolute most potent tools, denying Potentials both emotional support and the ability to be informed about what a Faustian bargain making a contract really is.
It should be plainly obvious that the masquerade is to the Incubators benefit, because if it wasn't, they wouldn't maintain it.
The singular reason I'm not pushing to break the masquerade at this specific point in time is because I don't believe we're in a position where we could succeed. QB's infowar capabilities are ludicrous. When (not "if") we strike that blow against the QB, I want it to be a telling one.
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mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
This is not something that has been particularly clear, given the immediacy with which votes have been being phrased. If that is made clearer, I would be much less concerned, albeit still a bit concerned, though that may be a personal bias.
This is what I was trying to make a point of specifically not suggesting. Hence "at least part of a decided system, preferably formed with consultation with a neutral and trained party". That being said, reading over what I wrote doesn't actually communicate what I was meaning very well, and I apologize.
Again, I did not say don't involve them. I am saying that their first involvement being "hey so our prisoner burned down your house/broke your daughter's arm and now we're having some debate about what to do with them, can you weigh in" is perhaps not the best of ideas, and I would prefer a baseline in place about 'these are directions we will not be going and here are our reasons why'. This baseline includes plans for if they suggest everything from "execute them" to "let them go, they thought they were helping" to "hand them over to the government", and everything in between. This is, as has been said, not just around the Mikis and Shizukis, and I am meaning that as well- lack of baseline and lack of clear baseline is the road to inconsistency, unclear communication, and the possible appearance of hypocrisy.
This.
There are like three longer paragraphs I was about to write about the situation at large, and I'll write them after the exam that I am needing to be finishing preparing for today. See you in about six hours, all.
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
I'm glad everyone is trying to engage the issue more. My view of how to bring majority culture and mahou shoujo into contact says " induct adults according to a formula."
Bootcamp for muggles should be a discussion for now. It has deep roots in specialized cultures IRL. It works.
Prototyping how we script the "adult talk" is very helpful. Could we each try to post our own version? I'll try much later. Since this is Japan, I'll go a bit Carl Sagan on it, and try to be less personal? Parents will make everything personal without any help.
Step ONE, before the talk, should therefore prove by experience just how bad the magic system is. We need our adults to go all-in, and become community minded.
Bootcamp for muggles should be a discussion for now. It has deep roots in specialized cultures IRL. It works.
Prototyping how we script the "adult talk" is very helpful. Could we each try to post our own version? I'll try much later. Since this is Japan, I'll go a bit Carl Sagan on it, and try to be less personal? Parents will make everything personal without any help.
Step ONE, before the talk, should therefore prove by experience just how bad the magic system is. We need our adults to go all-in, and become community minded.
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Not you personally, but I recall there being instances of hand-wringing from the thread in general about the consequences of blowing the masquerade.
Unless you're proposing that punishments should be determined by the idiosyncratic preferences of the victims, rather then principled decisions based on deterrence and rehabilitation, we are inevitably going to end up telling a lot of people that we're resolving a situation based on our own internal policies. This is part of the price of entry for running a justice system.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Blowing the masquerde is something we'd ideally want to do if it turns out to be possible without major negative repercussions.
I mean, what's the question here?
We're basically doing the same thing on a lower scale with this situation.
We can't just tell the Mikis everything for obvious reasons, that's why we're gonna lean on the Shizukis to help us out. And maybe on the Kanames, too.
Firn is a smart man, if we vote to 'Respect their feelings; err on the side of caution. Stay positive' and 'propose involving adults', I don't think he's gonna have Sabrina tell Homura and Sayaka to drop what they're doing and go knock on Sayaka's home's door and tell everyone everything, or something like that.
(Well, in fact, I didn't think we needed this ('Respect their feelings; err on the side of caution. Stay positive') amount of... reassurances to be part of the vote while votecrafting, but some people have sadly made it clear we need to specify something this level of obvious.)
If it was me, I'd leave the vote more open ended, actually:
[] Discuss O&K with Sayaka and Homura:
-[] Respect their feelings.
-[] Ask what they think should happen with O&K.
-[] Bring up:
--[] Complications, feasibility of continued house arrest, mental effects.
--[] Justice/Restitution.
--[] Alternatives: Rellocation, restricted freedom with surveillance.
--[] Involving adults, particularly the Mikis.
And I'd trust Firn to write something good with that. He wants to see the story go well, and Sabrina has history that gives her personality and guides her actions already. I don't think we need to specify to the extent are already doing.
I mean, what's the question here?
We're basically doing the same thing on a lower scale with this situation.
We can't just tell the Mikis everything for obvious reasons, that's why we're gonna lean on the Shizukis to help us out. And maybe on the Kanames, too.
I don't think we need to make this clear anymore. Sabrina has a history of how she faces problems, and it's been a while since we collectively decided to give her less details to work on and leave them to the interpretation of 'Brinapilot'/Firn.
Firn is a smart man, if we vote to 'Respect their feelings; err on the side of caution. Stay positive' and 'propose involving adults', I don't think he's gonna have Sabrina tell Homura and Sayaka to drop what they're doing and go knock on Sayaka's home's door and tell everyone everything, or something like that.
(Well, in fact, I didn't think we needed this ('Respect their feelings; err on the side of caution. Stay positive') amount of... reassurances to be part of the vote while votecrafting, but some people have sadly made it clear we need to specify something this level of obvious.)
If it was me, I'd leave the vote more open ended, actually:
[] Discuss O&K with Sayaka and Homura:
-[] Respect their feelings.
-[] Ask what they think should happen with O&K.
-[] Bring up:
--[] Complications, feasibility of continued house arrest, mental effects.
--[] Justice/Restitution.
--[] Alternatives: Rellocation, restricted freedom with surveillance.
--[] Involving adults, particularly the Mikis.
And I'd trust Firn to write something good with that. He wants to see the story go well, and Sabrina has history that gives her personality and guides her actions already. I don't think we need to specify to the extent are already doing.
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
There will be no revolution, per se.
The future, minus some worldbreaking reveal such as befriending Feathers, consists of us negotiating a radically new system. Kyuubey is far, far beyond our power to 'overthrow.' But as a perfect rationalist, it can be bought off.
We need to use the license we are already operating under, to form a prototype of our system. We are allowed a requested number of adults who don't get managed in general population. Kyuubey is studying / allowing us a "small area of variance," so it won't interfere. Only we can use that power for our own ends, it won't correct us.
In a very small system, everybody is sort of supplying labor into all the positions. As an illustration, aggrieved parties might be given duty to 'restrain' or monitor the accused in some theories. Abuse is checked by the notion of "comprehensive judgment," that is, the status of the victim's interest can change the outcome during the deliberation period. It might not pretend to be "absolute justice." Let's try to do a search for theory out here IRL. Or do you just want to get the Imperial pin for a bunch of Magical Girls, make them officers of the actual Japanese court system, let the mundane society tell us how to solve it? Apprenticeship is a normal teen lifestyle? In before "Magical Police Girls!"
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
The vote makes it clear that any contact of the Mikis is to happen after discussion with the Shizukis, which is scheduled for the upcoming weekend. It's very clear that this isn't supposed to happen immediately - especially since we're bringing it up in discussion with Sayaka and Homura to be refined nearly a week ahead of any possible action. Stop fearmongering. :/
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Uh, pretty sure I meant Shizune. 18 years old? Moonlights by killing fellow assholish Megucas?
( I was shitposting, don't mind me. Besides, I don't know much of anything about Shizune Magica besides it's amazingly narmtastic premise. )
I don't think involved parties should have any authoritative positions in the handling of a case, for the obvious reasons. If we can't manage that internally, then we need to import some objective third parties, rather then just giving up on fairness.
If I were designing a new legal system for a new context I wouldn't do it by asking the Japanese government, or the general public, to manage it. It probably would be worth seeking input from legal scholars, since they're likely to have thought of issues we wouldn't come up with on our own, but we shouldn't take their advice as binding.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Yes, the aggrieved parties don't get to be lawyers, but they do get to be plaintiffs. In modern law, involved parties absolutely do have the ability to impact a case, in the form of pressing charges or agreeing to settlements.
This kind of shady secret court bullshit I'm seeing proposed, where the aggrieved groups don't get to be party to the actual decisionmaking in the form of the court case is pretty freaking scummy.
This kind of shady secret court bullshit I'm seeing proposed, where the aggrieved groups don't get to be party to the actual decisionmaking in the form of the court case is pretty freaking scummy.
In civil cases, not criminal ones. We crossed that line with Oriko when we decided that imprisonment was on the table.
EDIT: If you want to give the Miki's the right to seek financial compensation from Oriko, then that's fine. But measures intended for deterrence or punishment are matters of public policy that shouldn't be influenced by the victims.
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