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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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As far as I can tell, there are three arguments against sharing powersets:

The first is that Homura won't agree, and that just asking will hurt her. I think that I bring it up fairly gently with my current wording, and I don't think she'll begrudge us trying the best we can to get help for Walpurgisnacht.*

The second is that now isn't the right time, and that this should be discussed in person in Mitakihara, or still later altogether. I provide a cue to discuss IC if it should happen now or later, but there is a reason to do it ahead of time - insofar as disclosing our teams abilities will affect the bargained terms of the arrangement, that disclosure has to happen before the terms are agreed upon.

The final reason is that we can't trust Fukushima with that information, which seems very strange to me. If we can't trust them with the sort of very basic power rundown that QB has been shown to freely provide to any magical girl who asks, then what exactly can we trust them with, again?

* A mutual defense agreement is comically lopsided in our favour. Whatever threats she expects us to handle, they cannot possibly represent more of a risk to us than Walpurgisnacht represents to her team. It behooves us to make the agreement as enticing to them as possible if we want it to go through, which we very much do.
 
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It's unasked, of relatively minor value, and vanishingly unlikely to affect the outcome. Yuki's already both made the offer and given her own personal condition to it. Given those, there's no reason I've seen yet to make disclosure worthwhile.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
It's unasked, of relatively minor value, and vanishingly unlikely to affect the outcome. Yuki's already both made the offer and given her own personal condition to it. Given those, there's no reason I've seen yet to make disclosure worthwhile.
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Yuki made the offer prior to learning about Walpurgisnacht, and Mitakihara has an unusual concentration of power even disregarding our personal contributions to combat calculus. It's in our interests to clarify what we have to offer beyond our personal combat power.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Yuki made the offer prior to learning about Walpurgisnacht, and Mitakihara has an unusual concentration of power even disregarding our personal contributions to combat calculus. It's in our interests to clarify what we have to offer beyond our personal combat power.
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Yuki added a single condition to her offer after learning about Walpurgisnacht. And she already knows the entire of our team's combat strength we're likely to be able to let her know. It gut-checks horrifically badly to ask, offer, or ask to offer this information - pretty much every single angle here seems like a wrong move.

You seem to expect some kind reciprocity from Yuki, but I can't see full reciprocity at all, it simply doesn't make sense for her if she hasn't offered mentioned it herself yet. And yet, without either party even knowing the full member list of each team, she was willing to offer a MD pact on less than full information knowing we would be taking on the entire world, she literally said as much. Powers isn't really at issue here. It's something you're inserting into things for nebulous benefits that don't seem very likely from my perspective.
 
I can't argue against gut feelings.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You seem to see the agreement as a far more "done deal" than I do. The spar isn't a "precondition", it's information gathering as a prelude to further bargaining, likely including other conditions.
 
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The mutual defense pact was offered because she thought she would benefit. Certainly we're going to negotiate, but we aren't going to be paying her for the pact, it's something she wants because it lessens the risk and increases the rewards of associating with us. And she sees it as something we'd also want, which she's right about.

Since we infer a meeting of intent here (she's said she wants it, we think we want it), I don't see further bargaining being make or break here.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
The mutual defense pact was offered because she thought she would benefit. Certainly we're going to negotiate, but we aren't going to be paying her for the pact, it's something she wants because it lessens the risk and increases the rewards of associating with us. And she sees it as something we'd also want, which she's right about.

Since we infer a meeting of intent here (she's said she wants it, we think we want it), I don't see further bargaining being make or break here.
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She thought she would benefit on net, yes... Before we told her that she'd have to fight the freaking Queen of all Witches as part of it. Don't you think that that changes the math a bit?

What possible scenario are you envisioning where Mitakihara providing defense of Fukushima is a bigger benefit for her than Walpurgisnacht is a cost?

It seems extremely obvious to me that a mutual defense pact is ludicrously weighted in our favor. Why wouldn't we have to pay for it (with other favors/finances/assurances) for it to go through? Are you expecting her to throw her teammates at that monster for free?

We already know what price she charges for fighting WPN, remember, and it's in excess of a hundred grief seeds (in a non-Clear Seed timeline). I'm not convinced Mitakihara defending Fukushima is an equivalent service to that, at all.
 
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Honestly, we're going to be fighting WPN together and that alone justifies sharing powersets.

Is there really going to be a scarier opponent than Walpurgisnacht bar feathers in the foreseeable future? Are we really more scared of Iowa than of Walpurgisnacht? I'm just not. I'm really not.

[X] Redshirt Army
 
Redshirt Army said:
You seem to see the agreement as a far more "done deal" than I do. The spar isn't a "precondition", it's information gathering as a prelude to further bargaining, likely including other conditions.
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And if she winds up being reluctant, then we might have to make a further concession. But you don't just spontaneously make concessions that you don't even know you need to make yet. You can't pre-pay on concessions: if you give them one now, they'll want a different one later when we hit an impasse. That's how bargaining works. You never agree to anything right away. Whatever they're offering, you're going to hold out for at least a little bit more.
 
The Narrator said:
And if she winds up being reluctant, then we might have to make a further concession. But you don't just spontaneously make concessions that you don't even know you need to make yet. You can't pre-pay on concessions: if you give them one now, they'll want a different one later when we hit an impasse. That's how bargaining works. You never agree to anything right away. Whatever they're offering, you're going to hold out for at least a little bit more.
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Sharing our powers is not a concession! It costs us nothing and gives them nothing they cannot otherwise obtain! Knowing the resources being offered is a basic, standard, and expected part of any bargain - and we will be filling them in either way, eventually, for the Walpurgisnacht fight!
 
Redshirt Army said:
Sharing our powers is not a concession! It costs us nothing and gives them nothing they cannot otherwise obtain! Knowing the resources being offered is a basic, standard, and expected part of any bargain - and we will be filling them in either way, eventually, for the Walpurgisnacht fight!
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If so, then why didn't she fill us in immediately on her team when making the offer? You say it's a standard part of any bargain, but I don't think it is in this case. Both parties are still feeling out the other in terms of trust, and that would continue into the future even if we agreed to a mutual defence thing today.

There are weeks to Walpurgisnacht, and I'm fully expecting that our agreement will be tested before it arrives. And I'm also confident that we can close this agreement without needing to spill additional power deets, especially timestop and precog.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Knowing the resources being offered is a basic, standard, and expected part of any bargain - and we will be filling them in either way, eventually, for the Walpurgisnacht fight!
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And that's weeks away. There will be time for those sort of discussions later. We met this girl like five minutes ago. She hasn't told us what her power actually is, or Shinobu's. She hasn't even confirmed that they only have five members. And she hasn't asked us any of those things, either. We're not at the sharing point yet.

Look, I've done bargaining. It's a back and forth. You don't give the other side something they haven't even asked for yet when they're not giving you anything in return. And you never agree to anything immediately. Especially not unilaterally without the team having discussed it.

They're already getting a Clear Seed for free; we've made a show of good faith. Have they?


(Never mind that Homura's power isn't really part of the offer, because there's no way we'd ever convince her to leave Mitakihara and travel to Fukushima to protect them if they were attacked. If they call for aid, the team that comes will almost certainly be the same one that went to Asunaro.)
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
If so, then why didn't she fill us in immediately on her team when making the offer? You say it's a standard part of any bargain, but I don't think it is in this case. Both parties are still feeling out the other in terms of trust, and that would continue into the future even if we agreed to a mutual defence thing today.

There are weeks to Walpurgisnacht, and I'm fully expecting that our agreement will be tested before it arrives. And I'm also confident that we can close this agreement without needing to spill additional power deets, especially timestop and precog.
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We're literally two sentences in.

"How do you feel about a defense pact?"
"I'm fighting walpy."
"Oh. Uh. Spar?"

That and we already know most of her team. The reverse is not true.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
If so, then why didn't she fill us in immediately on her team when making the offer?
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Because the information sharing is a part of the deal, according to Redshirt Army, not a prerequisite for it?
When/if we do end up fighting Walpurgisnacht together with Fukushima girls, we ought to tell them about our powers a lot, and vice versa, because killing her without anyone dying will be hella hard. Let me put it that way: Walugi is a plot devise with a sole purpose to make Homura suffer. Just because she's found a few friends and that weird girl helping her looks just like a giant spider, if you squint, doesn't mean she's going to give up easily. Or at all.
Right now, if I understood it correctly, RA offers just to name the powers of Mitakihara Megucas.
Like
"Homura is a timestopper."
"Oriko is a bullshit precog."
"Being Sayaka is suffering. Also, power copying."

It's actually less than what they would find out about them if they just call up Kyubei and ask
"What's the Girl X's deal?"

Again, Homura didn't tell anyone about time stop not because it would give her an unfair advantage against other Magical Girls they will not be able to counter as they don't know what to counter and how, but because she's emotionally broken teenager stuck inside a month-long loop where everyone who should know better ( magic! ) ridiculed her warnings, and then died. Or went crazy and then died. Or sacrificed herself to save her, and then- you get the idea.

If Homura is uncomfortable with disclosing anything about her powerset, then she can tell us so. She could then provide us a belivable lie that she must've thought of in her eight years.
She is unlikely to be hurt by the very mention of the idea.

Logic as follows: one side offers a mutual defense pact. The other tells that the pact will be likely weighted in their favor, because in less than a month they will almost certainly get attacked by the thing Witches have nightmares about. The first side is still willing to follow through with the offer, but first offers a spar with the perceived leader of the group in order to gauge her power levels.
In this scenario, telling about other members' powers is a logical step, basically advertising what two sides of the deal have to offer each other. They can find the other way. We have Homura, they have a Kyubei. This is inconsequential.

Homura looks and feels vulnerable to us, because we know exactly what kind of shit she went through. To many others, she is largely a pragmatist who set out to accomplish one goal, i.e. defeat Walpurgisnacht. She can and will act the part to acquire assets. It's not like she hadn't told about her powers to anyone before, you know.

Eh, whatever. Redshirt Army, looks like you're outvoted.
 
[X] Redshirt Army
Adhoc vote count started by Script Mak3r on Feb 28, 2018 at 4:34 PM, finished with 133474 posts and 29 votes.
  • [x] Contact your team.
    -[x] Fukushima proposes a mutual defense agreement. This affects all of us. Discuss?
    -[x] Should Yuki come in person to ratify (and fulfill) the contract?
    -[x] Excuse yourself during sparring.
    [x] Spar: Agree.
    -[x] Clarify appropriate levels of force. Free cleansing aside, you don't want to destroy anything valuable.
    -[x] Unambiguously follow agreed rules. Escalate responsibly, don't risk civilians.
    -[x] Beyond that, don't hold back. Flight, armor, feints. Abuse nanofog, energy emissions.
    [X] Defense Pact: You're interested.
    -[X] Who's likely to attack?
    --[X] You'd prefer attempting diplomacy with attackers, either after fighting settles or preempting it entirely. You want to help all magical girls.
    -[X] What other groups are in the area?
    -[X] Share that you're conferring with Tomoe Mami. Share your friends' comments/concerns. If no/negative groupchat consensus, break to voting.
    [X] Payment:
    -[X] Agree to provide antimagic.
    -[X] Haggle, erring on the side of generosity.
    -[X] Provisionally agree, invite Yuki to Mitakihara for ratification by Mami, tailored antimagic, and Airi.
    --[X] Provide Clear Seed - it's not contingent on the rest of the deal. Usual safety warnings.
    [x] Contact your team.
    -[x] Fukushima proposes a mutual defense agreement. This affects all of us. Discuss? No rush.
    -[x] Exchange powerset descriptions? When? Which info, if yes? Respect Homura/Oriko.
    -[x] Should Yuki come in person to ratify (and fulfill) the contract?
    -[x] Excuse yourself during sparring.
    [x] Spar: Agree.
    -[x] Clarify appropriate force. Free cleansing aside, you don't want to destroy anything valuable.
    -[x] Unambiguously follow agreed rules. Escalate responsibly, don't risk civilians.
    -[x] Otherwise, don't hold back. Flight, armor, feints. Abuse nanofog, energy emissions.
    [X] Defense Pact: You're interested.
    -[X] Likely attackers?
    --[X] You'd prefer attempting diplomacy, either after fighting settles or preempting it entirely. You want to help all magical girls.
    -[X] What other groups are in the area?
    -[X] Exchange basic power descriptions? (If team agrees.)
    -[X] Share that you're conferring with Tomoe Mami. Share your friends' comments/concerns. If no/negative/undeveloped groupchat consensus, break to voting.
    [X] Payment:
    -[X] Agree to provide antimagic.
    -[X] Haggle, erring on the side of generosity.
    -[X] Provisionally agree, invite Yuki to Mitakihara for ratification by Mami, tailored antimagic, and Airi transport.
    --[X] Provide Clear Seed - it's not contingent on the rest of the deal. Usual safety warnings.
    [x] Don't contact your team yet.
    -[x] An extended discussion in person will be better than than trying to brief them remotely.
    [x] Spar: Agree.
    -[x] Clarify appropriate levels of force/escalation/collateral. Despite free cleansing, you wouldn't want to destroy anything too valuable.
    --[x] But goad Yuki, "Give me the word to cut loose and I'll show you what I can really do."
    -[x] Go all out barring gem shots (within agreed guidelines).
    --[x] Combat-density fog, Sabrina in a sphere of grief for armor surrounded by decoy shells, fill volume with high-intensity light and sounds, grief constructs materializing out of the air to restrain and attack
    [X] Defense Pact: You're interested.
    -[X] Let Yuki know you'll be conferring with Tomoe Mami.
    -[X] What attackers does she anticipate?
    --[X] You're out to help all Magical Girls. You will defend Fukushima if needed, but given the option would prefer to make peace with hostiles, either after fighting or before it starts.
    -[X] You'll be in touch later after thinking it over.
    [X] Payment:
    -[X] Agree to provide antimagic.
    -[X] Haggle, erring on the side of generosity.
    -[X] Formally agree, then provide payment (including Clear Seed).
    [X] Vote in abbeyance, as appropriate.
    [x] Contact your team.
    -[x] Fukushima proposes a mutual defense agreement. This affects all of us. Discuss?
    --[x] You'll wait if there's no fast consensus.
    -[x] Excuse yourself during sparring.
    [x] Spar: Agree.
    -[x] Clarify appropriate levels of force. Free cleansing aside, you don't want to destroy anything valuable.
    -[x] Unambiguously follow agreed rules. Escalate responsibly, don't risk civilians.
    -[x] Beyond that, don't hold back. Flight, armor, feints. Abuse nanofog, energy emissions.
    [X] Defense Pact: You're interested.
    -[X] Who's likely to attack?
    --[X] You'd prefer attempting diplomacy with attackers, either after fighting settles or preempting it entirely. You want to help all magical girls.
    -[X] What other groups are in the area?
    -[X] Share that you're conferring with Tomoe Mami. Share your friends' comments/concerns. If no groupchat consensus, get back to her tomorrow.
    [X] Payment:
    -[X] Agree to provide antimagic.
    -[X] Haggle, erring on the side of generosity.
    -[X] Provisionally agree, invite Yuki to Mitakihara for Mami tourism, tailored antimagic, and Airi.
    --[X] Provide Clear Seed - it's not contingent on the rest of the deal. Usual safety warnings.
Click to expand...
 
Yep. Muramasa's clearly in the lead. Oh well, hopefully the deal goes through regardless. I don't suppose you'd want to pick up any of the other tweaks I made other than the ones around the information exchange, @Muramasa ?
Adhoc vote count started by Redshirt Army on Feb 28, 2018 at 5:23 PM, finished with 133474 posts and 29 votes.
  • [x] Contact your team.
    -[x] Fukushima proposes a mutual defense agreement. This affects all of us. Discuss?
    -[x] Should Yuki come in person to ratify (and fulfill) the contract?
    -[x] Excuse yourself during sparring.
    [x] Spar: Agree.
    -[x] Clarify appropriate levels of force. Free cleansing aside, you don't want to destroy anything valuable.
    -[x] Unambiguously follow agreed rules. Escalate responsibly, don't risk civilians.
    -[x] Beyond that, don't hold back. Flight, armor, feints. Abuse nanofog, energy emissions.
    [X] Defense Pact: You're interested.
    -[X] Who's likely to attack?
    --[X] You'd prefer attempting diplomacy with attackers, either after fighting settles or preempting it entirely. You want to help all magical girls.
    -[X] What other groups are in the area?
    -[X] Share that you're conferring with Tomoe Mami. Share your friends' comments/concerns. If no/negative groupchat consensus, break to voting.
    [X] Payment:
    -[X] Agree to provide antimagic.
    -[X] Haggle, erring on the side of generosity.
    -[X] Provisionally agree, invite Yuki to Mitakihara for ratification by Mami, tailored antimagic, and Airi.
    --[X] Provide Clear Seed - it's not contingent on the rest of the deal. Usual safety warnings.
    [x] Contact your team.
    -[x] Fukushima proposes a mutual defense agreement. This affects all of us. Discuss? No rush.
    -[x] Exchange powerset descriptions? When? Which info, if yes? Respect Homura/Oriko.
    -[x] Should Yuki come in person to ratify (and fulfill) the contract?
    -[x] Excuse yourself during sparring.
    [x] Spar: Agree.
    -[x] Clarify appropriate force. Free cleansing aside, you don't want to destroy anything valuable.
    -[x] Unambiguously follow agreed rules. Escalate responsibly, don't risk civilians.
    -[x] Otherwise, don't hold back. Flight, armor, feints. Abuse nanofog, energy emissions.
    [X] Defense Pact: You're interested.
    -[X] Likely attackers?
    --[X] You'd prefer attempting diplomacy, either after fighting settles or preempting it entirely. You want to help all magical girls.
    -[X] What other groups are in the area?
    -[X] Exchange basic power descriptions? (If team agrees.)
    -[X] Share that you're conferring with Tomoe Mami. Share your friends' comments/concerns. If no/negative/undeveloped groupchat consensus, break to voting.
    [X] Payment:
    -[X] Agree to provide antimagic.
    -[X] Haggle, erring on the side of generosity.
    -[X] Provisionally agree, invite Yuki to Mitakihara for ratification by Mami, tailored antimagic, and Airi transport.
    --[X] Provide Clear Seed - it's not contingent on the rest of the deal. Usual safety warnings.
    [x] Don't contact your team yet.
    -[x] An extended discussion in person will be better than than trying to brief them remotely.
    [x] Spar: Agree.
    -[x] Clarify appropriate levels of force/escalation/collateral. Despite free cleansing, you wouldn't want to destroy anything too valuable.
    --[x] But goad Yuki, "Give me the word to cut loose and I'll show you what I can really do."
    -[x] Go all out barring gem shots (within agreed guidelines).
    --[x] Combat-density fog, Sabrina in a sphere of grief for armor surrounded by decoy shells, fill volume with high-intensity light and sounds, grief constructs materializing out of the air to restrain and attack
    [X] Defense Pact: You're interested.
    -[X] Let Yuki know you'll be conferring with Tomoe Mami.
    -[X] What attackers does she anticipate?
    --[X] You're out to help all Magical Girls. You will defend Fukushima if needed, but given the option would prefer to make peace with hostiles, either after fighting or before it starts.
    -[X] You'll be in touch later after thinking it over.
    [X] Payment:
    -[X] Agree to provide antimagic.
    -[X] Haggle, erring on the side of generosity.
    -[X] Formally agree, then provide payment (including Clear Seed).
    [X] Vote in abbeyance, as appropriate.
    [x] Contact your team.
    -[x] Fukushima proposes a mutual defense agreement. This affects all of us. Discuss?
    --[x] You'll wait if there's no fast consensus.
    -[x] Excuse yourself during sparring.
    [x] Spar: Agree.
    -[x] Clarify appropriate levels of force. Free cleansing aside, you don't want to destroy anything valuable.
    -[x] Unambiguously follow agreed rules. Escalate responsibly, don't risk civilians.
    -[x] Beyond that, don't hold back. Flight, armor, feints. Abuse nanofog, energy emissions.
    [X] Defense Pact: You're interested.
    -[X] Who's likely to attack?
    --[X] You'd prefer attempting diplomacy with attackers, either after fighting settles or preempting it entirely. You want to help all magical girls.
    -[X] What other groups are in the area?
    -[X] Share that you're conferring with Tomoe Mami. Share your friends' comments/concerns. If no groupchat consensus, get back to her tomorrow.
    [X] Payment:
    -[X] Agree to provide antimagic.
    -[X] Haggle, erring on the side of generosity.
    -[X] Provisionally agree, invite Yuki to Mitakihara for Mami tourism, tailored antimagic, and Airi.
    --[X] Provide Clear Seed - it's not contingent on the rest of the deal. Usual safety warnings.
Click to expand...
 
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[x] Muramasa

... my notifications decided to disappear for nearly three days. Nice. Bit late to the game, but I'll have to go for the less infoshare option for now, I'm afraid. We can always decide to offer more information later, but I'd rather see if the conversation even really heads that way, and what the tone of things is, before we start considering it. (... and I just personally prefer to be conservative about infoshare in general. So. Personal bias, I suppose.)
 
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