Always Happening
We could have prevented this.
- Location
- On a train with no brakes
Wood ≈ Wind, generally speaking.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- Texas
Hence all the magical girls with weaponized clarinets.
- Location
- Illinois
But... Wood != Chloro in some cases? Vines, leaves, etc etc?
Always Happening
We could have prevented this.
- Location
- On a train with no brakes
Are you underestimating the clarinet?
General > specific when it comes to elemental affinity. Plants = Wood ≈ Wind. Chouko's a shoe-in for it as well. Mami, Oriko, Kaoru, and 'Ramiel' are all light-aligned, and I would eat my hat if Ono and Niko weren't as well. Similarly, Sabrina, Kirika, Kazumi, and Homura are all very apparently Darkness-aligned, as, I imagine, is Hijiri.
The only one that I can recall offhand that I'm having trouble placing is earthquake girl; I might go dig up the cast list here in a bit.
- Location
- Texas
Are you underestimating the clarinet?
The clarinet girls are a dime a dozen. I mean, sure, never underestimate a meguka, but still.
When you see a contrabassoon coming at you, though, you best start running.
Romka
Master of Stealth
- Location
- In a barrel
There is no Meguca police department. I disagree that we won't be able to help Hijiri if she does learn.
Sayaka has nothing to do with that quote. It's also difficult to do much of anything with Hijiri when she isn't anywhere near us.
Dude, chill. This is a quest on the Internet.
It doesn't matter how much social ammo we throw at her if she's not willing to listen to it. The one thing we can say right now that will have an effect is warning her about kyubey. Everything else is wasted.
We don't need to be with Hijiri, we have clear seeds. Im advocating for therapy and significant personal attention towards Hijiri to deal with the potential negative effects of gemming her while preventing her from making a mistake by leaving. That is would be quite a bit of effort towards Hijiri.
Also, threatening Kirika is a different situation, as it is threatening to witch out someone rather than cleansing them.
I'm not sure if you're genuinely trying to convince them at this point, but this isn't the sort of thing that's doing your point any favors. Or maybe you're just insulting them for the satisfaction.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Um. Guys.
Isn't "Italian macaroni posting" considered a violation of some kind of rule? The fourth, I think?
Also. I have no right to say this, but I'm going to anyway, because I'm hypocritical that way.
Firn has stopped updating to give people time to finish the winter semester/school period and maybe find a compromise on the ongoing problem. Things are... rather getting out of the way. I've been away for a couple of days ( MeowQuest is like 137% percent cat memes. Eheheh ) and, judging by the posts, the discussion is devolving.
Btw, Sabrina is obviously light. And not only because of her color theme, just think about it and don't let "Kirito the Black-Wearing Japanese Jesus stereotype" fool you.
Ahem. So. How about the big cheeses of the discussion construct their final votes and let people vote for them? I think everything worth saying or thinking of has already been said or offered for scrutiny.
Isn't "Italian macaroni posting" considered a violation of some kind of rule? The fourth, I think?
Also. I have no right to say this, but I'm going to anyway, because I'm hypocritical that way.
Firn has stopped updating to give people time to finish the winter semester/school period and maybe find a compromise on the ongoing problem. Things are... rather getting out of the way. I've been away for a couple of days ( MeowQuest is like 137% percent cat memes. Eheheh ) and, judging by the posts, the discussion is devolving.
Btw, Sabrina is obviously light. And not only because of her color theme, just think about it and don't let "Kirito the Black-Wearing Japanese Jesus stereotype" fool you.
Ahem. So. How about the big cheeses of the discussion construct their final votes and let people vote for them? I think everything worth saying or thinking of has already been said or offered for scrutiny.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
No, I said that if she's as certain to go crazy as you seem to think she is, then leaving her to her own devices isn't going to prevent it, period. If she is really as bad as you seem to be assuming she is, then she needs medical intervention. I've watched people I know go through this more than once. When they're as borderline as you seem to think Hijiri is, they don't come back on their own: the mania feeds back on itself until it pushes them over the edge, every time. The only thing you can do is get them to the hospital for treatment and hope that it's early enough to head it off, or at least so that when it does happen they'll only be wrestled to the ground by orderlies for trying to fistfight a door instead of tasered by the police for running wild in the streets.
Romka
Master of Stealth
- Location
- In a barrel
Eh, I can definitely see why Sabrina would be light, but I think she would be a dark type given that she fights with the literal force of despair. Or perhaps she would be both a light and dark type.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
I'll respond to everything else later, my hand got in a workplace accident. I'll just say re:Clear Seeds that multiple grief spiralling girls have been observed to refuse cleansing, and that Hijiri isn't "borderline" if you don't deliberately aggravate her condition. That's like saying that a PTSD-inflicted person should be indtitutionalized because of how they'd react if you put them in a movie set reconstruction of their war experiences or rape scene or whatever.
It's not like being de-gemmed is a common occurrence, and the severity of her trauma is something that, by its nature, will lessen over time with the understanding that the people she blames aren't out to objectify her. Her situation is inherently unstable, but in both directions.
It's not like being de-gemmed is a common occurrence, and the severity of her trauma is something that, by its nature, will lessen over time with the understanding that the people she blames aren't out to objectify her. Her situation is inherently unstable, but in both directions.
- Location
- USA
Pretty much all the arguments here are getting repeated, with devolving levels of debate (people continuing to ignore that Narrator is addressing their own claims re: Hijiri's instability ex hypothesi, not granting their begged question for Narrator's own argument) .
But Seriously Vebyast, do you hear yourself here? "Because its really really upsetting to her to have anyone tell her no or punish her, we can't do anything to stop her from misbehaving!!"
Man wouldn't that be fun if it worked in the real world? Affluenza doesn't even hold a candle, "you know like they had a bad experience with some bossy parents so now they are legally protected from a boss or a police officer ever giving them instructions because authority figures upset them" sounds like a mind blowing get-out-of-jail-free card.
People were arguing genre earlier, saying that being all serious about Hijiri's behaviour, disobedience, and potential threat is wrong for Mahou Shoujo (Shonen more than Shoujo in themes, a lot of the time). How about the universal display of "defeat means friendship", "debate philosophy with your fists", "Befriending (tm)" seen in the genre? Suddenly because its Hijiri and not every other difficulty thats arisen before, absolute pacifism is necessary and violence is morally abhorrent (no matter the immortality-is-cheap implications of Lichdom, because we try not to share that if its not necessary) ? Suddenly we should be leading a moral crusade against those who dared to try and stop Akiko's rampage with combat because they should've never stopped talking and just run away until she stopped attacking them?
Its one thing and perfectly reasonable to say "violence against prisoners is wrong" with Niko hitting Hijiri (that a slap seemed to provoke the firestorm that an extended caning normally would may have been a precursor sign to this). Its vastly different that now we can't even try to EVER use force against Hijiri because it would upset her issues, no matter that she may well be running to regroup with the other-assailant (pretty sure burglary and assault doesn't get forgiven because oh they didn't kill you) she's been in constant secret communication with, no matter that she SHOT DOWN A VEHICLE IN MIDAIR before the first shot was fired on our side (normally sudden drops from dozens of feet aboveground lead to grievous bodily harm if not death), and no mention made yet of why any of these arguments would change if she escalated to some further aggression against us and those we claim to help and protect.
Because being so much as knocked out non-lethally would aggravate her feeling a lack of self efficacy, we may do no more to defend ourselves and others than talk and pray. How is Niko going to feel (the girl who already has a past trauma about harming others with weapons) that it would be abhorrent of her to use violence to defend herself against someone who's already broken into her home and attacked her once? "Your parents had no right to own such a thing, you have no right to defense, you are obligated to sit back and let it happen (Niko's trauma whispering to her: You deserve it anyways, its your fault Hijiri is upset, let her send you to your childhood friends)" huh, thats some serious self-efficacy issues we're advocating for the girl we supposedly rushed out to help here.
Or am I somehow mistaking your repeated arguments for a broader principal? Would you care to list situations where you'd find it acceptable to use force against Hijiri, specify a threshold where gemming or even magical-knockout by other means would be acceptable to you? Is it just the immediate case of "she's fleeing, we are obligated to sit and wait and hope she changes her path because /we/ can survive it" (no matter those we may not be fast enough to save) where violence is forbidden?
What happened to "Heroes act, they don't react" that we now have a let-her-go-and-telepathy block saying we just need to sit back and see if she does anything bad a third time or if she manages to do just fine on her own?
What happened to the general idea that "trying and trying and retrying the same solution in the face of failure results is a sign of insanity" , where our response to a failed few hours of speechifying led her to flee, is.... more speechifying?
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Have you ever heard the phrase "self-fulfilling prophecy"? Hijiri isn't doing anything right now. She might be doing something in the future, but if we try to do shit to her right now we can raise that from "might" to "absolutely fucking will". Like, you're the evil overlord. Do you kill the hero's parents? No. That would make everything worse. Do you kill their mentor? No, that would make everything worse. Do you kidnap the princess? No! Do you burn the hero's village? No! Do you etc etc etc. Right now, Hijiri has a rather vague ill intent. If we continue the social, which is absolutely still effective, she'll continue to have rather vague ill intent. If you start a fight she will fight back and then everyone will be unhappy. If you attack her and she attacks someone else, you will be responsible. Not her.
Read the goddamn update. We have a chance. More than a chance, we have an entirely new direction to take. Maybe two, given Kai's point about Kyubey. We have such a good new direction to take that I am convinced that Brinapilot's "fuckup" is the Hand of Fucking Madokami Herself answering our goddamn prayers. 'Cause the alternative is that @Firnagzen can't read the votes that are right in front of his face, and I think that if he's fucked up that badly then our chance of finishing this quest successfully is nil.
How far do you want to extend your "doing social again is insanity" argument, by the way? 'Cause the argument you just made would extend to not socialling anyone that's ever made a mistake. Even, you know, people like Homura or Sayaka.
Hell, you want to try to hold your point? Convince me why we shouldn't cap Homura right now. She's killed more people, more reliably and predictably and with less guilt, than Hijiri ever did.
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
I'll stop when they stop advocating murdering a teenage girl because she's inconvenient.
It's the internet.
They'll probably keep going until one side gives up or the quest updates. Most likely the latter.
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
Not that I disagree with your broader points but isn't that just a little bit of a strawman? Most of them are -last I checked- advocating for gemming her or otherwise knocking her out/taking her into custody. Not straight up murder.
Because his position is that Gemming= Death or that it would lead to her death, I'm guessing.
The other side disagrees, and here we are.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
My only response to this is that the police analogy is really, really, bad here, because the equivalent of a cop doing what you want to do here is um. A major crime.
Additinally, we promised Hijiri we would give her a free life without anyone controlling her and when she's trying to cash that in, you fucking snap her neck?
Because anyone who's read Kazumi Magica can deduce with reasonable probability that doing this to Hijiri has a strong case of making her intensify her psychotic episode to the point that we have to keep her iced effectively indefinitely, or she ends up grief-spiralling to kill herself or turn into a witch if we're not watching her.
Gemming her is effectively a death sentence for Hijiri; her seeing other girls getting gemmed makes her become a murderous chucklefuck who eventually kills herself rather than live with what she did. It's as much a part of her character as "Hijiri is dangerous and an uncooperative asshole", so if one of these ISN'T true, well...
I guess it's a coin flip. Pick one, but it's probably not the one that makes Hijiri impossible to reason with and thus rescue, because this is PMAS. It's probably the one where if we don't take it seriously we kill a girl.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
I think the shared origins stuff is a pretty hard hitter, so I'm kinda inclined to say it might be better put closer to the fore rather than at the rear. Something like:
[] You can sympathize more than she might think. You both have similar origins. But this? She's just going to give up?
Point of relevance: We've already noted that Hijiri wished to connect all their powers back during the briefing. I'm not sure what benefit that adds here.
It's on this note that I want to dissent with the proposed plan for dealing with Anri. For the reason of Hijiri's reaction if nothing else.
I'm fine with a Physical KO if that's what is required, but I'd rather at least try to focus a bit more on forcing her into submission rather than straight out knocking her out or risking killing her.
- Location
- Illinois
Point of order, in this context, when we (EVERYONE involved) say gem Hijiri we mean "yank Hijiri's gem" as opposed to "atomize Hijiri's body and keep the gem."
Beeeeecause anyone clinging to the second definition in this context can now exit SV please. "gem person x" has been used in that context before, but right now we are not using it in that manner.
SO! Let's tabulate some basic claims. The left says gemming Hijiri will make her go psycho, the right says that if the left is telling the truth then she'll end up psycho anyway so we had better gem her.
Item one, I don't see a logical path from "lichbomb as a consequence of gemyanking Hijiri" to "Hijiri goes psycho." It would (understandably) polarize her against us, I see no evidence that it would make her "go psycho." Keep in mind that whatever canon had to say, we are dealing with Firn, who is a competent author and an intelligent, non-stupid man. I feel that this claim is, ehm, unlikely to be realistic.
As I say, I don't get it.
Item two, anyone advocating a plan for how to deal with this should have a plan for what to do in the medium term after it's carried out. I have seen such plans from the left -- I've made some of them. The problem for the right-wing "gem Hijiri" idea, medium term, is Niko's reaction & desires versus the actions so advocated. Suppose we gem Hijiri. One, we then must avoid Niko going "YOU KILLED HER WTF!?!?" Two, we must deal with Niko, who will want to re-ensoul Hijiri ASAP and speak with her without hurting her whatsoever and who will subsequently break down if/when Hijiri "rejects" her. Right could stand to propose a plan to handle this.
That was the suspicion but it was not proven, and an actor (a Sabrina) looking at Hijiri from before previous post would have asked where the teleportation was, because "obviously" Hijiri didn't have it.
Beeeeecause anyone clinging to the second definition in this context can now exit SV please. "gem person x" has been used in that context before, but right now we are not using it in that manner.
SO! Let's tabulate some basic claims. The left says gemming Hijiri will make her go psycho, the right says that if the left is telling the truth then she'll end up psycho anyway so we had better gem her.
Item one, I don't see a logical path from "lichbomb as a consequence of gemyanking Hijiri" to "Hijiri goes psycho." It would (understandably) polarize her against us, I see no evidence that it would make her "go psycho." Keep in mind that whatever canon had to say, we are dealing with Firn, who is a competent author and an intelligent, non-stupid man. I feel that this claim is, ehm, unlikely to be realistic.
As I say, I don't get it.
Item two, anyone advocating a plan for how to deal with this should have a plan for what to do in the medium term after it's carried out. I have seen such plans from the left -- I've made some of them. The problem for the right-wing "gem Hijiri" idea, medium term, is Niko's reaction & desires versus the actions so advocated. Suppose we gem Hijiri. One, we then must avoid Niko going "YOU KILLED HER WTF!?!?" Two, we must deal with Niko, who will want to re-ensoul Hijiri ASAP and speak with her without hurting her whatsoever and who will subsequently break down if/when Hijiri "rejects" her. Right could stand to propose a plan to handle this.
That was the suspicion but it was not proven, and an actor (a Sabrina) looking at Hijiri from before previous post would have asked where the teleportation was, because "obviously" Hijiri didn't have it.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
I would also like to put the "Wishborn/shared origins" thing as close to the beginning as possible, because of anything we could possibly stay it's probably the one thing she can't just #ignore and fuck off from. Even if she hates us more, or doesn't believe us, or whatever, it WILL make her stop and want to know what the hell we mean by it. She can't NOT.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Kaizuki said:
The argument isn't "The lichbomb makes her psycho"; she could be already lichbombed, it doesn't matter. The argument is "This person tried to make me trust them and when I refused to play along with their script they fucking ripped my soul off me and turned me off like a toy puppet. They're exactly like I thought Niko was. They just want me to dance to their tune. I'm just a doll to them and they just want me to go back in either the Dollhouse from before or a different one they're not giving me real freedom fuck this fuck them FUCK NO."
- Location
- Illinois
Okay, now that makes sense, because I can definitely see that.