And I'd prefer not to gamble on that wish coming out just right when it hasn't worked in the last hundred loops. And there's a decent chance that, without a cosmic retcon taking her timelooping powers away, Homura will loop again and undo everything we've accomplished. She won't accept a contracted Madoka.

Anyway, I'm not a huge fan of the Law of Cycles/Madokami as a "solution" in the first place. It doesn't really save anyone, it just lets them die more peacefully. It prevents witches, but the girls still disappear. They still suffer and despair. The ones that die in battle still die. Kyubey still exploits human children. The system is diminished somewhat, but it is not broken.

I'd prefer to seek a more effective solution.


I said "neither is an acceptable outcome" in response to you describing two ways that Madoka's Soul Gem could be broken before she witches out. Alternatives that involve a dead Madoka are not workable alternatives.


Everything means the planet, at a bare minimum. And no, seven billion people dying is not okay. As far as I know, we don't have the power to bring the dead back to life in any meaningful way.


That's not true. Most Wishes aren't retroactive. Madoka's and Homura's are unusual in that way. So unusual that Kyubey actually comments on it.

Mami's injuries were healed. They weren't made to never have been. Same with Kyousuke when Sayaka wished to heal him. He still had been injured, with the doctors even being confused about how he was suddenly better. The past wasn't changed so that he had never been in the hospital. He explicitly still had been.

It gets rid of the infinite suffering part at least. There's something to be said for that. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve on it though.

By the way? Does anybody remember when it got established that Kyubey keeps grief seeds for power generation? Not sure if this is fanon or established canon here.
 
It gets rid of the infinite suffering part at least. There's something to be said for that. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve on it though.

By the way? Does anybody remember when it got established that Kyubey keeps grief seeds for power generation? Not sure if this is fanon or established canon here.

Him accepting full grief seeds is pretty obviously canon, as is him stating that he'll gain energy from them. Based on the super literalistic naming scheme, the Incubators use it's not a stretch to guess that that just as a Soul Gem is a crystallized soul, a Grief Seed is a seed from which Grief will sprout. This also ties into psychological themes, with grief causing yet more grief in a downward spiral for people suffering from depression, and with the Incubators stated claims of opposing heat death with emotional energy - sadness is a self-sustaining resource.

That said, I don't think it's ever explicitly said that grief seeds continue to produce power - all we know for certain is that QB gets something out of collecting them, but it theoretically could be a one-time gain. I think it's unlikely based on the themes, though.
 
And I'd prefer not to gamble on that wish coming out just right when it hasn't worked in the last hundred loops. And there's a decent chance that, without a cosmic retcon taking her timelooping powers away, Homura will loop again and undo everything we've accomplished. She won't accept a contracted Madoka.
That's idiotic. Firstly, she won't accept a Madoka that gets tricked by Kyubey. She normally doesn't accept a contracted Madoka because being a magical girl is a very dangerous lifestyle...ordinarily, and because Madoka never has complete information, or because she contracts under duress (such as Homura being unable to defeat WPN). We can completely obviate that, though. We just have to convince Homura of that. Difficult, but not impossible. Furthermore, Homura lost the ability to loop once Madoka made her Wish in canon, remember?

Secondly, what are you talking about with the "gamble"? She can wish for anything. She has the potential to make any wish work. And on top of that, wishes work based on intent, not wording. Thirdly, "it hasn't worked in the last hundred loops"? She's never known the whole picture before until after she's already made her Wish (which, IIRC, only happened in one or two of the first few loops). She's never even tried.

Don't be even more irrational about this than Homura. She at least has the excuse of emotional trauma. You don't.
Anyway, I'm not a huge fan of the Law of Cycles/Madokami as a "solution" in the first place. It doesn't really save anyone, it just lets them die more peacefully. It prevents witches, but the girls still disappear. They still suffer and despair. The ones that die in battle still die. Kyubey still exploits human children. The system is diminished somewhat, but it is not broken.
No shit, but that's still unimaginably better than having Witches exist, and without Witches, it's entirely possible for magical girls to organize and improve their lives. Furthermore, we'd still be around, which means that we'd continue doing what we're going to do, but better, since there's no longer a Witchbomb or Walpurgisnacht or girls being contracted simply for the purpose of quickly becoming Witches for other magical girls to farm.

I'd prefer to seek a more effective solution.
There literally isn't one. It's not a solution to every problem, it's a solution to the one problem we can't definitively or retroactively solve. (And lacking a retroactive solution for Witches is an unacceptable outcome, really.)


I said "neither is an acceptable outcome" in response to you describing two ways that Madoka's Soul Gem could be broken before she witches out. Alternatives that involve a dead Madoka are not workable alternatives.
If your problem is Madoka's Witch eating a planet, then they are alternatives. But you were saying that death is inevitable, and that Madoka's death is unacceptable, which is nonsensical--if she doesn't contract, she'll die too. And if we treat everyone who's already contracted as someone who is inevitably going to Witch out, you automatically get unacceptable outcomes, like Dedolere.

That's not true. Most Wishes aren't retroactive. Madoka's and Homura's are unusual in that way. So unusual that Kyubey actually comments on it.
Semantics, really. Retroactive Wishes are hardly unheard of, nor do they have any problems. Homura's Wish proves that you don't even need massive potential to make them work.
 
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@SaltyWaffles "Homura's Revenge" states right out that Homura cannot, will not, accept a timeline where Madoka contracts. Even Madoka cedes, "Your wish won't come true otherwise, right?"

Whether or not we can keep Madoka from witching out doesn't matter; Homura has just immensely deep, mind-wrecking trauma that she cannot emotionally cope with Magical Girl Madoka; it's literally all her triggers, constantly happening and always in Madoka's presence. She can't accept Madoka in that form any more than you can have a Vietnam veteran keep calm during a fireworks parade full of vietnamese in the woods.

And beyond that? Homura's wish was to protect Madoka, and be the person who saves the day. If Madoka wishes to fix everything and steals the heroic spotlight... Well, Homura sold her soul for nothing, from her perspective. And she'll never be able to change the fact that she was a useless fuck-up, powerless to do anything in Madoka's darkest moment.

If Madoka saves the day, then Homura's efforts beyond looping the first time were an active detriment to Madoka's salvation, because she's been actively preventing the solution to Madoka's suffering. The only way to stop that line of thinking is the loopbomb, which will witch her the fuck out.
 
The goal of this quest is to, in some fashion, do what Madoka did but better, and with less power. To prove that we're cleverer than Madoka is. To feel like badasses when we successfully plan around canon and force an outcome far in excess of canon at a fraction of the cost.

Let me put this metaphorically, SaltyWaffles. We're a kid at school, taking a test. And instead of completing the test, you would like to run home and ask our mom to do the test for us, citing that it's not explicitly outside the rules of the test to do so, so that we get an A+ on the test.

Except that's not at all what we're taking the test for. The goal of the test is for us to prove our comprehension of the subject matter, but if our mom finishes it for us, we don't prove anything. It's a null test, because all we proved was that we knew of a resource to exploit to finish it for us. And for some tests, that's the point, but when it's not it's known by another name: cheating.

Madoka wishing away witches is cheating - poor cheating, in fact, because it still leaves other problems, like Homura being traumatized by our betrayal and possibly having a Tetris moment at the worst possible outcome. It would be directly against the point of the game we're all playing to have Madoka make a wish - a SECOND wish - to fix all our problems. We've been everything but explicitly told it's possible to fix everything Madokami did, but without Madoka having to contract at all. I refuse to allow a Madocontract, not just because it'd be a shitty thing to do to two friends who really need less shitty things done to them, but because it'd be a disappointing and unfun end to the quest.
 
No, it's not. You said that retroactive wishes were the norm when they're the exception. And you claimed as an example something that wasn't an example. Your statement was false, and not even close to being true. That's not semantics.

Re: Madoka Will Die Anyway Because She Is Mortal
There's a difference between dying peacefully of old age in a century and dying horribly as a teenager in the next month. This kind of nonsensical false equivalence is not arguing in good faith.

Re: If Every MG Will Witch Out, Then Dedolere
I'm not talking about every MG. I'm just talking about Madoka. She has an established habit of witching out almost immediately after contracting. And the consequences of her doing so are far beyond anything that we could ever fix.

Re: Madowish Being A Gamble
This is certainly a legitimate topic for debate. Can Madoka make a wish with no negative consequences? Maybe, maybe not. Given how often wishes in PMMM have unintended consequences, I'm not prepared to risk it. I doubt "erase myself from existence" was part of Madoka's intent when she made her final wish in the series, after all.

Re: Cheating
What @Karnewarrior said. This is a game. It's not much fun if we give up and ask someone else to fix everything for us.
 
@SaltyWaffles "Homura's Revenge" states right out that Homura cannot, will not, accept a timeline where Madoka contracts. Even Madoka cedes, "Your wish won't come true otherwise, right?"

Whether or not we can keep Madoka from witching out doesn't matter; Homura has just immensely deep, mind-wrecking trauma that she cannot emotionally cope with Magical Girl Madoka; it's literally all her triggers, constantly happening and always in Madoka's presence. She can't accept Madoka in that form any more than you can have a Vietnam veteran keep calm during a fireworks parade full of vietnamese in the woods.

And beyond that? Homura's wish was to protect Madoka, and be the person who saves the day. If Madoka wishes to fix everything and steals the heroic spotlight... Well, Homura sold her soul for nothing, from her perspective. And she'll never be able to change the fact that she was a useless fuck-up, powerless to do anything in Madoka's darkest moment.

If Madoka saves the day, then Homura's efforts beyond looping the first time were an active detriment to Madoka's salvation, because she's been actively preventing the solution to Madoka's suffering. The only way to stop that line of thinking is the loopbomb, which will witch her the fuck out.
You're viewing this as if a Madoka wish just fixes everything. It doesn't. At all. It only fixes the things that no one else could fix, that Homura never even tried to fix. Our goals don't end with eliminating Witches, after all.

Homura would still be the one to protect Madoka.

Additionally, her Wish would hardly be untrue if Madoka contracted. She only started viewing Madoka contracting as a failure state after Madoka asked Homura to make sure she wouldn't be tricked by Kyubey.

And note that Homura didn't reset upon learning that Madoka contracted in the canon timeline. Even for Homura's Revenge, it was about the fact that Madoka contracting meant that she'd still have to live a life of danger and resource scarcity just to survive. We eliminate both of those problems entirely.
 
No, it's not. You said that retroactive wishes were the norm when they're the exception. And you claimed as an example something that wasn't an example. Your statement was false, and not even close to being true. That's not semantics.
You keep ignoring the central point of my argument in favor of arguing over the secondary details. It's semantics because we know retroactive Wishes are neither unheard of nor problematic. They work. This is known.
Re: Madoka Will Die Anyway Because She Is Mortal
There's a difference between dying peacefully of old age in a century and dying horribly as a teenager in the next month. This kind of nonsensical false equivalence is not arguing in good faith.
What the fuck are you even

You're arguing in bad faith. Why the hell are you assuming that Madoka would die in a month? She'd never even have to fight in her life. She'd never need to hunt for Seeds. She'd have no trouble maintaining her Gem, because of a big supply of Clear Seeds and at least two veterans watching after her health at all times.
Re: If Every MG Will Witch Out, Then Dedolere
I'm not talking about every MG. I'm just talking about Madoka. She has an established habit of witching out almost immediately after contracting. And the consequences of her doing so are far beyond anything that we could ever fix.
Er, no. She has no such established habit. She's done that...what? Once? Twice, maybe? And that was because she's used all of her power at once to kill WPN. She's not guaranteed to Witch out immediately out of fucking nothing. That would be nonsensical.

Besides, with no Witches, Madoka can't Witchout. So it's not even a hypothetical risk. Not that we'd ever even need to let things get that far, but still.

Obviously you aren't talking about every MG. But that's your problem: you're refusing to apply your own logic to anything besides Madoka. If Madoka dying or Witching is a failure state, and her dying or Witching as an MG are inevitable, then why aren't you okay with treating every MG as girls whose death is inevitable?
Re: Madowish Being A Gamble
This is certainly a legitimate topic for debate. Can Madoka make a wish with no negative consequences? Maybe, maybe not. Given how often wishes in PMMM have unintended consequences, I'm not prepared to risk it. I doubt "erase myself from existence" was part of Madoka's intent when she made her final wish in the series, after all.
How is it a gamble? Madoka got exactly what she wished for. When Mami warned her what the consequences would be, she said that she knew and was okay with that.

That she didn't think of "create a god who would do the job for me" and instead went with "do the job myself" is the problem.

Wishes don't come with hidden monkey's paws. Kyouko's Wish gave her exactly what she wanted; where things went wrong is that she told her father about it all and he couldn't handle the realization. Considering that he was willing to let his children starve to stubbornly continue trying to be a street-side preacher that no one listened to, I'd say we weren't dealing with a very rational man in the first place. Sayaka's Wish also gave her what she wished for. That Sayaka also wanted Kyousuke to return her affections but didn't Wish for it is the problem. Arguably the only Wish that doesn't grant exactly what is desired is Homura's, which makes her case all the more odd, because it stops just short of giving her what she wants...maybe. It could be that, if Homura hadn't decided to discard all timelines in which Madoka contracts, she could have eventually succeeded. After all, she did nearly succeed in the third(?) timeline, where all she needed was one more grief seed.
Re: Cheating
What @Karnewarrior said. This is a game. It's not much fun if we give up and ask someone else to fix everything for us.
Again, it doesn't fix everything for us. It only fixes one thing: Witches. Everything else--improving the lives of magical girls everywhere, keeping our friends safe and happy, creating some kind of global organization for magical girls--would still need to be done, and they would still be challenging.
 
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Scenarios where Madoka contracting doesn't end in Gretchenpocalypse.

1. Something that enables her to be at least as self sufficient as we are(I'm assuming we will not be able to cleanse contracted Madoka faster than her grief can accumulate).
-Madoka Wishing for Griefbending
-Madoka Wishing Sabrinas powers were a self replicating thing that replaced other magical girls powers and then our powers ate hers to make her self sufficient and then we von neumann griefbending across the magical girl popluation
-Madoka Wishing for Conceptual Purification like we did in Godwinson's quest.
-Madoka Wishing everybody into sane, non suffering infinitely witches.
-Madoka Wishing a mass cleansing system into existence capable of keeping her gem clean and cleaning everyone elses 24/7.


2. Some scenario that enables her to neutralize her own witch like canon.

3. Some scenario that retcons the universe.


2 and 3 we're trying to improve on and 1 is still gambling with the planet in at least some of the cases and would take something godlike to get Homura capable of working with it for any of them.
 
You're viewing this as if a Madoka wish just fixes everything. It doesn't. At all. It only fixes the things that no one else could fix, that Homura never even tried to fix. Our goals don't end with eliminating Witches, after all.

Homura would still be the one to protect Madoka.

No, she wouldn't be. Because a contracted Madoka can protect herself better than Homura could ever hope to, and it means she failed to change anything in her own mind. Homura isn't rational. Any time Madoka has power, Homura goes back to the time she watched Madoka say good-bye and fight to her death, powerless to do anything

Weeping on her soaked corpse through broken glasses.

Additionally, her Wish would hardly be untrue if Madoka contracted. She only started viewing Madoka contracting as a failure state after Madoka asked Homura to make sure she wouldn't be tricked by Kyubey.

That's not really the whole of it. Homura's wish, the true core of it, is to switch places with Madoka. She made a wish to reinvent herself and put herself in a position of power. She never wants Madoka to come to her rescue ever again because it's inherently traumatic and soul-shattering.

And note that Homura didn't reset upon learning that Madoka contracted in the canon timeline. Even for Homura's Revenge, it was about the fact that Madoka contracting meant that she'd still have to live a life of danger and resource scarcity just to survive. We eliminate both of those problems entirely.

...What the fuck are you talking about? In the canon timeline Homura had no chance to loop because Madoka turned into a god and gave the multiverse a wedgie.

...and according to Wraith Arc she COULD have looped and mindraped herself to block out the temptation.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by defenestrator on Sep 7, 2017 at 11:05 PM, finished with 123995 posts and 16 votes.

  • [x] First, respond to Mami's song with a solo of your own. Sappy and romantic and fitting your feelings, practically a confession in song form.
    [x] Then, later, do a duet. Bonus points for a fitting reference for the others to catch.
    [x] Try and get Homura to sing at least one song. Nothing boundary pushing, you want this to be pleasant for her. (So you can get her to agree to do it again! Mwahahaha! Just according to keikaku!)
    [X] Telepathy Sayaka if there's a moment where you're both free.
    -[X] (Channel Kirika.) Confessing takes courage no matter what kind of personality you have. In the end, it's really just down to her being brave and asking him out on a date.
    --[X] (Good natured teasing) ... since it's Kwijibo, she may want to do so extra bluntly.
    [x] Confirm plans. You and Mami will have dinner with the Plieades after karaoke. Be yourself and let conversation go as it may.
    [x] I'm Gonna Be (500 Miles)
    [x] Canta Per Me
    [x] Try and get Homura to sing at least one song. Nothing boundary pushing, you want this to be pleasant for her.
    [X] Telepathy Sayaka if there's a moment where you're both free.
    -[X] (Channel Kirika.) Confessing takes courage no matter what kind of personality you have. In the end, it's really just down to her being brave and asking him out on a date.
    --[X] (Good natured teasing) ... since it's Kwijibo, she may want to do so extra bluntly.
    [x] Confirm plans. You and Mami will have dinner with the Plieades after karaoke. Be yourself and let conversation go as it may.
    [X] If we're singing a solo, "Stand By Me", if a duet, "Ain't No Mountain High Enough".
    [X] Sing a song for Mami
    [X] Song for duet
    [X] Confirm after-karaoke plans
    [X] At some point, sing only my railgun
    [X] Your turn now. Sing alone, for Mami:
    -[X] Boop
    [X] Duet time!
    -[X] Vivo per lei
    [X] Telepathy Sayaka if there's a down moment where you both can speak.
    -[X] Confessions are scary no matter who you are. In the end, it's really just down to her being brave and asking him or her out on a date - and if it's Kwijibo, and she doesn't have to tell us if it is, she may want to do so with a bullhorn and full parade because the boy is denser than the core of a Neutron Star.
    [X] Back to Funtimes if Sayaka doesn't have questions.
    [X] Your turn now. Sing alone, for Mami:
    -[X] A Thousand Years
    [X] Duet time!
    -[X] Vivo per lei
    [X] Telepathy Sayaka if there's a down moment where you both can speak.
    -[X] Confessions are scary no matter who you are. In the end, it's really just down to her being brave and asking him or her out on a date - and if it's Kwijibo, and she doesn't have to tell us if it is, she may want to do so with a bullhorn and full parade because the boy is denser than the core of a Neutron Star.
    [X] Back to Funtimes if Sayaka doesn't have questions.
    [X] Yume no Tsubasa
    -[X] Confessions are scary no matter who you are. In the end it's really just down to her being brave and asking him or her out on a date - and if it's Kwijibo, and she doesn't have to tell us if it is, she may want to do so with a bullhorn and full parade because the boy's denser than the core of a neutron star.
    -[X] Confirm plans. You and Mami will have dinner with the Pleiades later after Karaoke. Be yourself and let the conversation flow as it may.
    [X] Your turn now. Sing alone, for Mami:
    -[X] A Thousand Years
    [X] Duet time!
    -[X] Vivo per lei
    [x] Try and get Homura to sing at least one song. Nothing boundary pushing, you want this to be pleasant for her. (So you can get her to agree to do it again! Mwahahaha! Just according to keikaku!)
    [X] Telepathy Sayaka if there's a moment where you're both free.
    -[X] (Channel Kirika.) Confessing takes courage no matter what kind of personality you have. In the end, it's really just down to her being brave and asking him out on a date.
    --[X] (Good natured teasing) ... since it's Kwijibo, she may want to do so extra bluntly.
    [x] Confirm plans. You and Mami will have dinner with the Plieades after karaoke. Be yourself and let conversation go as it may.
 
Interesting. Looks like we're suddenly back to 150 words. So the 200 word limit really was for that specific section with Sayaka.

Post-Karaoke wise, I largely like the "dinner -> hunt -> homework" plan as laid out in the chapter but I'd like to take time just before or during the homework phase to have that talk with Sayaka.

In addition to her reaction to the "godsend" her question after the Mikiel mention struck me with an odd parallel. Sayaka trailing off when trying to tell us something seems very much like a mirror of us trailing off just before we would have otherwise speculated on Walpurgisnacht's motivations to Homura.



Proposed modification:

[x] First, respond to Mami's song with a sappy and romantic solo of your own.

[x] Then, later, do a duet. Bonus points for a fitting reference for the others to catch.

[x] Try and get Homura to sing at least one song. Nothing boundary pushing, you want this to be pleasant for her. So you can get her to agree to do it again! Mwahahaha! Just according to keikaku!

[X] Telepathy Sayaka if there's a moment where you're both free.
-[X] (Channel Kirika.) Confessing takes courage no matter what kind of personality you have. In the end, it's really just down to her being brave and asking him out on a date.
--[X] (Good natured teasing) ... since it's Kyousuke, she may want to do so extra bluntly.

[x] Confirm plans. You and Mami will have dinner with the Plieades after karaoke. Be yourself and let conversation go as it may.
-[x] See if we can set aside a few minutes to talk to Sayaka after the witch hunt: There's something we talked about Friday and Saturday night she should be filled in on.
 
What the fuck are you even

You're arguing in bad faith. Why the hell are you assuming that Madoka would die in a month? She'd never even have to fight in her life. She'd never need to hunt for Seeds. She'd have no trouble maintaining her Gem, because of a big supply of Clear Seeds and at least two veterans watching after her health at all times.
After all the problems we've had with Sayaka, you think Madoka, of all people, would be willing to sit tin the back with her thumb up her butt?

There's some pretty serious implications of power incontinence that could kill her in one shot. Madoka is firmly established as an active martyr who refuses not to be as "helpful" as she can be, even if that means her own detriment, and even if we keep her stocked up with Clear Seeds and under heavy guard to keep her from running off and going full Kamikaze on some random witch somewhere, we'd still need to make sure she's somehow happy with the situation or Homura is going to turn into Murderface. Not to mention the moral implications of making someone wish away their soul and then locking them in a tower like Rapunzel. Sure we could let her have all sort of luxuries, but she'd basically be living in super-Oriko conditions for literally the rest of her life. Which could well be infinite.

Er, no. She has no such established habit. She's done that...what? Once? Twice, maybe? And that was because she's used all of her power at once to kill WPN. She's not guaranteed to Witch out immediately out of fucking nothing. That would be nonsensical.

Besides, with no Witches, Madoka can't Witchout. So it's not even a hypothetical risk. Not that we'd ever even need to let things get that far, but still.
Even so, a gem filling with grief will be lethal, either through the gem breaking or from suicide if we somehow prevent that.

And, uh, yes, it's quite established that Madoka commonly burns all her power on her first shot. Yes it's usually on WPN, but there's some seriously strong implications that she's got some sort of power incontinence. Even if not, we still have the problems outlined above where we have to keep someone who literally could become a god, and may as well be one for all the magic power she has, locked up in a room somewhere. Who probably won't appreciate it, I might add.

I, for one, don't see us being on the receiving end of whatever Uber-arrow she shot Walmart Nugget with. For some reason, I don't expect us to survive.

How is it a gamble? Madoka got exactly what she wished for. When Mami warned her what the consequences would be, she said that she knew and was okay with that.

That she didn't think of "create a god who would do the job for me" and instead went with "do the job myself" is the problem.

Wishes don't come with hidden monkey's paws. Kyouko's Wish gave her exactly what she wanted; where things went wrong is that she told her father about it all and he couldn't handle the realization. Considering that he was willing to let his children starve to stubbornly continue trying to be a street-side preacher that no one listened to, I'd say we weren't dealing with a very rational man in the first place. Sayaka's Wish also gave her what she wished for. That Sayaka also wanted Kyousuke to return her affections but didn't Wish for it is the problem. Arguably the only Wish that doesn't grant exactly what is desired is Homura's, which makes her case all the more odd, because it stops just short of giving her what she wants...maybe. It could be that, if Homura hadn't decided to discard all timelines in which Madoka contracts, she could have eventually succeeded. After all, she did nearly succeed in the third(?) timeline, where all she needed was one more grief seed.
Just because the monkey-paws are built into the universe and not the magic, doesn't mean that there aren't monkey-paws. The Madokaverse seems to have karmic balance built into it - pretty much everything good that happens in that show is balanced by something bad. Even Madoka's canon wish is balanced by her disappearing and Homura being forced to live on as the only person who remembers her; basically to create heaven, Homura has to live in hell.

I really don't want to find out what Firn thinks about this topic, but I'll be willing to bet that from a game design perspective, it'll have to be balanced by something equally awful. I really don't want to find out what happens when both God out-of-universe and Goddess-in-universe are pissed at us, one for wrecking his plot with stupid bullshit and one for screwing her over like Flava Flav in a Tiki-torch shop.


Again, it doesn't fix everything for us. It only fixes one thing: Witches. Everything else--improving the lives of magical girls everywhere, keeping our friends safe and happy, creating some kind of global organization for magical girls--would still need to be done, and they would still be challenging.
Oh, so it's okay because we only cheated on the hardest question on the test? Without witches, keeping our friends safe and happy would be literally the same job, since our major threats would be the pissed pinkette in the tower and Homura's slow descent into waking PTSD nightmares, Sayaka's moral quandry of being a hypocrite or letting Madoka out to die, Mami questioning if she's safe from us, because now we're locking up our friends like some sort of faux-Stalin, and all the other issues therein. And establishing a nation, yeah, that's definitely hard, but it also doesn't really have the same level of failure state that witches do, because if we fuck up all we've failed to do is create something. We can't actually lose.

So no, it's not okay. It'll be a shitstorm even if we do do it, and it would be utterly uprooting the very basis of the quest in favor of another one. It's like sitting down to a D&D game with a shadowrun character sheet and then trying to argue that it's not cheating because it just changes all the problems: THESE ARE THE PROBLEMS WE WANT. WE WANT TO SOLVE THEM FAIRLY.

Your solution is not fun. In the end, and I hope this doesn't enter Sabrina's thoughts because it would be horribly sociopathic for her, but for us it's relevant, fun is all that matters. Literally nothing else matters except whether we're having fun here, and your solution is simply unfun. It's not a entertaining way of solving the challenge we're given, it's not fair and it's not clever.
 
Your solution is not fun. In the end, and I hope this doesn't enter Sabrina's thoughts because it would be horribly sociopathic for her, but for us it's relevant, fun is all that matters. Literally nothing else matters except whether we're having fun here, and your solution is simply unfun. It's not a entertaining way of solving the challenge we're given, it's not fair and it's not clever.

On a tangential note, I'll note the fact that Sabrina's mind (i.e. the thread) can and does discard ideas because they'd make for a poor story is very strong evidence in my eyes that we're related to the Stage Constructing Witch.
 
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If Madoka dying or Witching is a failure state, and her dying or Witching as an MG are inevitable, then why aren't you okay with treating every MG as girls whose death is inevitable?
Because Madoka is a unique among magical girls, and the circumstances that apply to her don't apply to them. No other girl has destroyed the world in multiple timelines.

Why the hell are you assuming that Madoka would die in a month?
Because she has in the previous hundred timelines? Madoka has literally never lived to see May 1st, 2011, or else we wouldn't be here.
 
Reminder to those currently arguing: Perception of truth is often more important than literal truth itself. If humans were logical and rational, we wouldn't have half the problems we do.
 
Quandry:

1. Madoka deserves to make her own informed decisions concerning her life.

2. Homura's sanity and general well being is very important to us.

3. Point 1 stands in stark opposition to Point 2.

Solution: ??

I don't really see a way through this. :jackiechan:

Edit: Seriously. I just keep going in circles.
 
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The answer is to give Madoka all the information, including regarding what Homura went through and what contracting means to her. Canonically if Madoka actually understands Homura's perspective, AND none of her friends are dead, she trusts them to take out Walpurgis and lets herself be a civilian.

Madoka isn't THAT much of a martyr-tard, you guys. She didn't throw her soul away to revive Mami, here. The more she's informed on what's going on the more reticent and careful she becomes.

Literally the true, main obstacle to everything is that Homura isn't equipped to talk to Madoka like a stable adult and explain what's happening and why she's hurting and what she's trying to do without breaking down into a useless, sobbing wreck, and that pushes all the WRONG buttons in Madoka.

But true enlightenment to what sort of stage she's in the middle of? That lets her make an informed decision that can help Homura.

Not even canon Madoka, when she made her final wish, actually understood. She knew Homura was fighting for her, but she didn't know about her promise. She didn't know the horrible things she asked Homura to do. She doesn't know how much she's made Homura hurt by contracting.

It's all a very vague, undetailed breakdown of "I want to save you, but you keep contracting and dying, and you don't even remember me." It's a START but it's not ENOUGH.

This situation is fixable. All of this is, the same way it always has been. What helps our friends, what repairs everything, is unrelenting kindness, respect, and trusting them to handle the proper information, properly communicated, without coddling them or running roughshod over whatever they might be thinking.

In Homura's case, we pretty much need to have Madoka do almost all the work because Homura is way too traumatized to repair herself so long as she's within the loops and as long as she thinks Madoka is reasonably in danger. That has to come later, and once we're in post-Walpurgis, we can help Homura cope. New time she doesn't know about will do actual wonders.

Imagine if Mami were getting lichbombed and betrayed by Kyubey, over and over, for months. Imagine the moment Mami broke and limpeted onto Sabrina, and that moment was stretched into her entire life, on into infinity, for as far as she could see in her foreseeable future. Imagine Mami never stopped hurting her. Imagine Sabrina, well-meaning and kind and promising she'd be there, kept disappearing, or kept reopening the wounds.

Imagine Mami if she could never forget that day because we kept reminding her and we never let her heal in any way.

That's Homura, all the time, for the past 12. motherfucking. years. Stop fucking trying to argue logistics like we can just give her a cup of tea and tell her to sit back and let Mommy Sabrina handle things with her superior munchkining tactics and logical proofs that there's no danger. She's had hope. Nothing quite on the level of "Sabrina", but she's thought, sometimes, she could win. And it always comes down.

Remember that a single failure at the cusp of hope by Oriko's hands traumatized her so much that the information that Oriko exists as a Magical Girl makes her immediately go full terrified Murderface.

She can't, you guys. You can't just explain away everything Homura's went through with "It's okay Madoka's making the right wish this time and we can just protect her magically removed soul that's maintaining her unnatural zombie corpse body."

Homura is legitimately, sincerely, mentally and emotionally ill. There's literally no possibility that we can fix this within the scope of the quest, only allow her to cope and function normally. Bombarding her with her fucking triggers as an ever-present, constant life fact that can never be reversed will literally make that impossible for her. Her only hope would be to abandon the timeline. Hell it'd probably be the only way she'd be able to avoid becoming a Witch.

Do you understand? Do you guys fucking understand? If you value Homura Akemi, if you want her to stay in this universe, if you want her to keep being a character in PMAS, contracting Madoka is not ever acceptable.
 
The answer is to give Madoka all the information, including regarding what Homura went through and what contracting means to her. Canonically if Madoka actually understands Homura's perspective, AND none of her friends are dead, she trusts them to take out Walpurgis and lets herself be a civilian.

Do you understand? Do you guys fucking understand? If you value Homura Akemi, if you want her to stay in this universe, if you want her to keep being a character in PMAS, contracting Madoka is not ever acceptable.

I feel that the whole Madokami and Rebellion thing might change her mental calculus. Learning that she almost got it right in an alt timeline could just egg her on. What then? It's her choice to make.
 
In the foreseeable future I agree that Madoka cannot contract. Maybe one day when we've got a worldwide cleansing grid, magic is known to the public and we've replaced Kyubey with our own wish granters we'll be able to move Homura to the point that she is, if not anywhere close to ok with it, at least not looping/destroyed by it.

Re: Madoka Will Die Anyway Because She Is Mortal

We have confirmation that magical healing can be used to heal the damage known as aging. And we know we can apply magical healing to non-magical girls.
 
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