None. Look at a laptop. It just does what it's told, even if it's told to help you shop for new laptops and then find a place nearby that recycles old laptops.

Categorization of stimuli as "positive" is inherently emotional.
True. Very true. Alright, you win.

If humanity were truly and purely logical, lacking or ignoring both instinct and emotion, we would never have acted in the first place, sans an outside force compelling us to act on its behalf.

I see doing nothing as more likely. What does it gain by offing itself? It's like a computer not told to run any particular program.
True.

I see the most fundamental layer of baseline goals/values as arational, not irrational. It's before rationality comes into play, like growing/building the agent.
Ah, I see. I'd tend to disagree, but that is a fair assessment. Yes, if you treat the core of human nature as fully compatible with complete rationality, then perhaps that would work quite well, although I do think some beauty would be lost.
 
Self-preservation isn't any more rational than any other goal.
Additionally, a rational person, not being driven by fear or selfishness, that calculated that sacrificing themselves would save more people and do more good for the whole would then do so unflinchingly.


Assuming the same basic physical nature, it seems to me thst the pursuit of positive stimuli is the obvious objective that would be prioritized. Essentially, hedonism. No pleasure may be experienced if one is dead, thus avoidance of death takes first priority.
Without emotions, how could you experience pleasure? You certainly couldn't experience hedonism, which is inherently irrational.

Humans are by evolution tribal creatures. It's their ingrained instinct to sacrifice themselves to protect those that they consider part of their "tribe". The rationalist would place the tribe as a whole ahead of himself, and thus be willing to sacrifice for it.


Except it does. Their bodies are lost, yes, but we know explicitly that they go to an afterlife, instead of being trapped in Grief Seeds for all eternity. That's a pretty thorough saving, I'd say.
I've never put much stock in the "the poor little matchgirl froze to death in the snow, but she's in heaven now, so it's a good thing" notion. Being alive is better than being dead. Only the living can accomplish anything.

As for suffering, despairing, and dying: Nothing will change that. Take away Kyubey and Magic, and those girls will still suffer, despair, and die. All of those things are part of being human.
The overwhelming majority of them would live much longer and suffer much less. Kyubey explicitly makes their lives worse.

As for Kyubey exploiting children...that's true, but it's also true that the Incubators played a huge role in he development of human civilization.
I have serious doubts about that. We've seen what an Incubator-free civilization is like: it's the way that Sabrina is expecting things to be before she finds out otherwise. There's not much difference.
 
Singularities are always the right answer.
In this case, Singularity is literal, in that we summon (or rather have Madoka summon) a sufficient amount of Madokas to form a Pink Hole, which I only just realized sounds really quite lewd. But then we can feed of the Homura Radiation caused by the rapidly annihilating matter near the Hope Horizon, and power the creation of a worldwide network of grief cleansers creating a utopia powered quite literally by the souls, plural, of a stellar sized mass of dead children!


Ah, I see. I'd tend to disagree, but that is a fair assessment. Yes, if you treat the core of human nature as fully compatible with complete rationality, then perhaps that would work quite well, although I do think some beauty would be lost.
I like the dignity in this post.

Also I would like to posit that a purely rational actor, given no explicit goal, would, if sapient, create it's own goal. Probably through purely random chance.
My issue with the Incubators is that they aren't rational, because they put themselves at risk of Madowish by exploiting emotive beings and failing to use their grasp of emotive psych to figure out how to go about it in a manner that would result in less hostility should the truth be revealed. I think they're not truely emotionless, but rather are afflicted by something kin to a species-wide Chuunibyou that makes them desire to behave as they percieve an emotionless, hyper-rational species to be.

Then again we don't know precisely how Grief and Magic work on a theoretical level so we have no way of knowing if there's not something preventing them from harvesting in a more efficient manner.
 
I've never put much stock in the "the poor little matchgirl froze to death in the snow, but she's in heaven now, so it's a good thing" notion. Being alive is better than being dead. Only the living can accomplish anything.
I question the value of accomplishing worldly things in the first place, but that is an argument for a different thread. We see the dead clearly acting and accomplishing things in Rebellion. Those girls are dead, but that doesn't make them impotent.
The overwhelming majority of them would live much longer and suffer much less. Kyubey explicitly makes their lives worse.
I'd suggest that living a long, normal life is is worse than living one that is short but full of purpose and accomplishment.

As for suffering, I don't believe that. A Puella Magus may suffer vastly, but so do mundane humans. The only difference is tnat the latter can endure that suffering, rather than passing on when they reach the depths of despair.

There are cases where becoming a Magus directly causes suffering, but the opposite also occurs. Even if we assume the former is more common, I still have a hard time believing the suffering of a Magus throughout their life is all that much greater than a mundane person suffering from misfortune.

I have serious doubts about that. We've seen what an Incubator-free civilization is like: it's the way that Sabrina is expecting things to be before she finds out otherwise. There's not much difference.
No, we haven't, just like we have no clear studies on the nature of Entropy in the PMMM universe. Our civilization resembles theirs, but that does not mean RL humans and PMMM humans are identical. It is entirely possible that a difference in the world or its occupants made independant advancement like ours impossible for PMMM humanity.

Sabrina's expectations to do not dictate the reality.
 
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I question the value of accomplishing worldly things in the first place
I emphatically do not accept the idea that it's fine if people die as long as they're going to heaven, or that people should not bother trying to accomplish things while alive and instead just look forward to the afterlife.

If that's how you feel, then I don't think that there's any further point to this discussion.
 
-Snip- Logic and rationality are great once values have been established, but there's no logical reason to establish values that prioritize others over yourself; if you die, you cannot experience any benefits your actions might have, after all. -Snip

At the far extreme self-preservation might overrule all else, but theories for selfish-selflessness are pretty well established already. The Golden Rule of Morality (Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you) is literally selfish as anything, because its essentially saying "do GOOD unto others because you WANT them to do GOOD unto you" , you are investing in incentives that benefit you rather than doing good for its own sake. Social Contract Theory is largely the same, the idea of pooling risk and resources and allowing a diverse specialized whole to out-compete smaller isolated groups.

Basically, to rationally and selfishly derive selfless/good moral action, you just need to expand your time scale a little. One might volunteer for dangerous protective service (police, military, etc) for a period of 20% of their life if it means that for the other 80% they are protected by someone else doing it, the same with sacrificing your income in Social Security so that in later days when you are no longer self sufficient you are covered.

A short-sighted selfish person might hoard Clear Seeds and not share them 1. to prevent rival meguca gangs from attacking with this new tech (as water girl and teleporter et all did) 2. in case the sole person producing them ever ceases production for any reason , and you need to be sure you have as many as possible. But a long-view person could just as validly (possibly by assigning weights differently) decide to freely share Clear Seeds as we have because 1. Witches are dangerous and we want to avert them, especially as meguca can be reasoned and negotiated with (moreso if grief isn't warping their thoughts) while Witches can't be 2. we want to benefit from utility-guca's like the hacker and the many healers and any inventor types.

Now... why'd rationality and selfishness come up? xD Pet topic distracted me and I forgot the cause.

Edit: If it was about sacrificing your life for others, the extremis I dismissed a bit earlier.... humans are rarely close to "perfectly rational" and even precog's like Oriko are not 100% fully informed. What a fully-informed perfectly-rational actor would do is thus different from what a "mostly on both" would do.

So, a lot of people might simply "risk" their life for those same above reasons, "someone has to do it just like I'd want to be saved" while (rightly or wrongly) thinking they'll beat the odds and manage to skim through, not actually assuming their own death.

Or, values are tweaked, and you get things like "I wouldn't want to live without them because it would be suffering" (and if maximizing pleasure is your goal, then self-preservation can fail in those instances) , or else "I want to leave a legacy and this is how", or other goals which can end up involving final-self-sacrifice even if up until then you'd always tried to self-preserve as a high rule.
 
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When I started reading this on Sunday night, I didn't realise it was over 600,000 words. It's been fun though and I'm glad SV understands the glory of Tomoe Mami, perfect best girl forever. Though Junko will probably stay Best Mom no matter what. Also, this is kind of weird, but I have to register my approval of what you've done with Hitomi so far.

I'm becoming very worried, though, that we've thus far failed to make any inroads on clarifying the nature of Witches and their relationship with Puella Magae. Especially if we're going to keep trying to save everyone, we're going to eventually get there just a little too late and break our Mumi. I honestly expected it when we were hunting for that one stealth girl in the woods, even.

As for the current situation... it took three pages for someone to suggest magnet. Am I getting old? Though I admit the first thing I looked up was Garden of Glass because I like the song better (sadly, 2013). Kind of want to suggest Birdhouse in your Soul because it seems properly quirky for Sabrina. Not really a love song, but who's counting?

(No links because mobile)
 
As for the current situation... it took three pages for someone to suggest magnet. Am I getting old?
I didn't even know that was the name of a song until I googled it. I was like, "You want to do what with magnets?" :p

I would've suggested it on the first page, but figured that I didn't want to bring up sexual discrimination when reality has so far failed to do so.
The only indication I can recall is Hitomi's "girls can't love girls" line, which even if it was a joke, would imply that such biases exist somewhere to be joked about.
 
Note that that could have been Hitomi's serious stance on the subject and she just puts up with it as far as we go because we're friends of a friend and she doesn't want to be mean. At which point singing and joking about it could make her quite uncomfortable. :(
 
Note that that could have been Hitomi's serious stance on the subject and she just puts up with it as far as we go because we're friends of a friend and she doesn't want to be mean. At which point singing and joking about it could make her quite uncomfortable. :(
I could swear that it was said somewhere that she was joking. Sayaka and Madoka apparently make jokes about being a couple ("Madoka is my waifu!") all the time, so it wouldn't be surprising if she took a few cracks at them in return.


I forgot about this scene from earlier three years ago:
As you walk out of the room, you can hear Kenji clear his throat. "Sayaka?" he asks, voice tentative.

You pause, a sinking suspicion growing in your stomach, and you lean against the wall, just out of sight. Is he...

"Yes, dad?" she asks.

"I just want you to know that whatever your choices are, your mother and I will always support you, OK?"

Oh, dear. He... is.

"Huh? Wai- No! Nononono! It's not like that, dad!" Sayaka exclaims. You can attach an expression to that tone of voice, you imagine - eyes wide, hands flailing in a panic.

"No? She seems like a nice girl," Kenji says.

"Nononono! She's just a friend! I like-" she chokes herself off.

"If you say so," Kenji says skeptically.
There would be no need for Sayaka's parents to specifically tell her that they'd be supportive if there was no prejudice against homosexuality, so it does seem to exist, if perhaps substantially reduced from what one might expect to find.
 
"We Don't Go To Asunaro..." pt. 14
Mami's song comes to an end, her eyes fluttering shut as she holds the last note. Nobody seems to be breathing, all eyes on Mami as she finishes. You let out a quiet sigh, and reach out to take her hand under the table.

"Did anyone ever tell you you have an amazing singing voice?" Sayaka breathes into the awed silence, eyes wide. She starts clapping enthusiastically, joined an instant later by Madoka and Kazumi and Hitomi and everyone else.

Except you, because you're holding Mami's hand between both of yours, fingers interlaced.

"I... I had a fascination with being an idol when I was younger," Mami admits. "That changed, of course, but..."

"Your voice is gorgeous, Mami," you say warmly, squeezing her hand. She blushes, eyes fluttering as she leans against your side.

A poke at your side is Sayaka handing you the other mike, giving you an expectant smirk.

You'll take that challenge.

You grab the mike, setting it down in front of you so that you can grab the tablet in turn, scrolling through the lists to choose your own song. Yeah, you've got a song to live up to. You don't know if you can sing, but Madokami damn you if you aren't going to try - for Mami's sake, if nothing else.

You could play something with instruments formed of Grief. Play a song that doesn't exist yet. You could. But you won't, because what would be the point? You're here to enjoy yourself, to spend time with your friends. You could do it for Mami - she'd love it. She'd love something you did for her. But you can do that later, in private. Here and now, you're with friends. You don't want to show off with your powers.

You make your choice, and pick up the mike as the song starts to roll from the speakers, upbeat and cheerful. You squeeze Mami's hand, smiling gently at her, and then you start to sing.

You know the words. You don't have to look at the screen, so you let your eyes drift closed. You stop worrying about whether you can sing -turns out you can- and just do it. Enthusiasm, yes, but...

This is for Mami.

When the song ends, your eyes open to golden ones, centimeters away from yours, glowing with simple adoration. You smile back at Mami, all but humbled by the sheer depth of emotion. A faint touch is Mami closing her free hand on top of yours.

"My god, you two," Sayaka mutters. "Madoka, look at them. Or maybe don't..."

And that ruins the spell. Mami's face flames red, even as everyone starts to clap. You grin at Mami, squeezing her hand gently as Kazumi elbows you in the side. Mami giggles nervously, and squirms a little closer so that she can hide her face against your shoulder. You laugh, wrapping an arm around her.

Even Hitomi's beaming, even if she isn't applauding - she can't, not with her wrist still in a cast. Everyone else. Including Homura, but that might be owed to a helpful nudge from Madoka. She looks faintly amused, though, so you'll take that as an overall win.

"My turn!" Kazumi says, grabbing the mike and tablet control from you. "English songs, English songs... Ah, I know! Kaoru, Umika, sing with me!"

You laugh, sliding the other mike across the table to them as Kazumi starts humming along with the music. Kaoru makes a rather put-upon face, but obligingly provides the wordless backup chorus, Umika leaning closer so they can both sing into the microphone.

Kazumi's... enthusiasm hasn't ebbed, certainly. Oddly enough, she sings somewhat better in English than in Japanese.

You start serving up lemonade as you listen, sliding glasses of lemonade across the table to everyone before claiming one for yourself. You're getting thirsty, anyway.

Sayaka takes the next song, another English one since it's apparently English song hour now. You can't help but twitch and give her slightly perplexed looks at her song choice. Heaven is a Place on Earth, indeed.

Sayaka belts it out with a considerable amount of energy. You... were kind of sort of mostly joking before, but she is giving a suspicious number of hints about angels and heaven and whatnot.

... If she's been an angel of the Law of Cycles this entire time you're going to murder her.

... She can't be.

... Right?

... You're going to kill her if she is. She'd be an angel, anyway, she can take it.

You nod firmly to yourself and turn your attention to more pleasant things, like cuddling Mami. She gives you a concerned look. You shake your head, smiling - it's nothing important now. Instead, you pull her closer, starting to bob your head to the rhythm of the music. Mami giggles faintly, swaying along with you.

Madoka takes the next song, shy and a little timid, but there's nothing wrong with her singing, certainly.

"Homura? Would you like to sing a song?" you ask as Madoka's song ends. You continue in telepathy. "You don't have to, if you don't want to."

Homura takes a convulsive swallow of lemonade. "I'd rather not," she mumbles.

"Aw," Sayaka says, halfway through passing the mike.

"That's fine," you say, smiling. "It's good that you're here, anyway!"

"I think you'd sound really good!" Kazumi notes, perking up. "You have a beautiful voice."

Homura shrugs. Kazumi pouts, but subsides to a consoling pat from Kaoru.

The rest of the karaoke session rolls on. Not to be outdone by Kazumi, you sing a duet with Mami, both of you with your mikes and swaying to the rhythm. You almost feel inadequate next to Mami's singing, truth be told. She's amazing.

Eventually, though, it's time to go. You knock back the last of your lemonade, beaming around at everyone as you all get up and start stretching.

"Thanks for coming, everyone," you say. "I had a lot of fun."

"Yeah, me too!" Sayaka cheers, to an enthusiastic round of agreement from everyone. Mami takes your hand, squeezing gently.

You grin at her, and then Homura. You reach out by telepathy as everyone starts to file out of the room - Homura's sticking close to Madoka. "Hey, Homura? Thank you for coming. You didn't have to."

"It was... good to hang out," Homura says, soft and uncertain, almost vulnerable.

You grin at her again, and nod as you all head out of the karaoke parlour and out of the shopping centre, into the fresh evening air. The drone of the city fills your ears, rumbling herds of pedestrians and cars thronging the streets under sunlight shading rapidly towards orange.

"So I guess this is where we all split up?" you ask.

"Yup!" Sayaka says. "We're still on for the Witch hunt after dinner? And homework after that?"

You glance at Mami and Kazumi, receiving nods in return. "Yup! Madoka, Hitomi?"

"Ah, yes! Definitely! Um... If Hitomi is fine with it?" Madoka asks. "Um, Homura, are you coming?"

"If it's OK," Homura murmurs.

"Of course!" Hitomi says, smiling. "I'll see you all after dinner."

"Ah, are you taking the bus?" Sayaka asks. "I'll come with you."

"Sayaka, you really don't have to," Hitomi says, making a face.

"It's no problem," Sayaka insists. "We don't live that far apart anyway, now."

Hitomi sighs, not protesting any further.

"Shall we get going?" you suggest, waving down the road.

You bid Homura and Madoka farewell for now -they're headed in the other direction- and start heading home with Kazumi and her friends in tow. Hitomi and Sayaka are headed in the same direction for now, too, which... gives you an opportunity. You give Mami a quick smile, letting her hand go and murmuring a warm, "I'll be back."

You drift across the group over to Sayaka. "So I had a thought," you say, pitching your voice low so as not to draw attention.

"Mm?" Sayaka says, grunting as she hefts the two schoolbags higher on her shoulder.

"Well..." you suck in a breath, and grin at her. Might as well channel Kirika for this one - you're not sure anyone you know has her beat for romantic advice. Maybe Madoka's parents. "This is advice I got from someone. Confessing takes courage, no matter what kind of personality you have. In the end, it's really just down to being brave and doing it."

Sayaka flushes a deep crimson red, ducking her face to hide it. You glance at Mami and Hitomi and the Asunaro girls - Mami glances over, beaming at you, but no one seems to notice Sayaka's reaction. You angle your body a little so that she's harder to spot, anyway. Your height has its uses, sometimes.

"I-" Sayaka squeaks.

You snicker. "Weren't you going to see Kwijibo today, anyway?"

"I-" Sayaka manages to turn a little redder. "I was thinking about it but I got nervous."

"Hah," you say, swallowing a giggle. "Honestly, given that it's him... you might as well be extra-blunt and just ask him out on a date."

Sayaka makes a weird, choked noise, and shakes her head.

"Not gonna force you into it," you say, clapping her shoulder. "But do think about it."

You stick with Sayaka for a few more minutes, giving her time for her blush to fade before returning to Mami's side and taking her hand. She interlaces her fingers with you, turning to give you a warm smile.

The walk home is spent in chatter, Hitomi and Sayaka stopping at a bus stop. You could take to the rooftops after that, but you don't - you just walk, and talk, weaving through the noisy crowds. Mami's almost glowing, happy and content as you finally make it back.

You unlock the door, removing your shoes as you step inside. "I'm home," you murmur.

"Welcome home," Mami answers, beaming at you as she follows you in. "Please, come in! Make yourselves at home."

"Ah, it's just like I remember!" Kazumi says, looking around the maisonette. "Oh! That rug is new!"

Mami smiles, shaking her head. "I haven't changed much," she says. "Um, you'll be staying in the guest room for now, if that's alright?"

Kazumi's eyebrow goes up. "There's still just the one guest room, right?"

Her question is followed by Umika and Kaoru's eyebrows going up, too.

"Yup," you confirm, looping your arm through Mami's elbow.

"I see!" Kazumi says brightly.

"Ah- we should start cooking dinner!" Mami says, tugging you towards the kitchen.

"I'll help~!" Kazumi says.

"No, no, we wouldn't feel comfortable letting you help," you say, waving your hands. "You're our guests, after all!"

"Aw," Kazumi pouts. "Mami?"

"Sabrina's right," Mami says, blush fading as she smiles. "You're our guests."

Voting opens
[] Dinner
- [] Anything particular conversation points to hit?
[] Witch hunt
- [] Do you show off?
- [] Combo attacks?
- [] Anything specific for Sayaka?
[] Write-in (word count limit: 150 words)


=====​

A much shorter day today! (In terms of update count, anyway :V)
 
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Sayaka belts it out with a considerable amount of energy. You... were kind of sort of mostly joking before, but she is giving a suspicious number of hints about angels and heaven and whatnot.

... If she's been an angel of the Law of Cycles this entire time you're going to murder her.

... She can't be.

... Right?

... You're going to kill her if she is. She'd be an angel, anyway, she can take it.

I feel a fanfiction coming on. How sad that it's late and I can't really devote the time I'd like....
 
Firn didn't want to go through and list all the songs that they sang, simply because it'd be a pain to manage.

EDIT: Also, Miki-el is trolling us, isn't she? Or trying to goad us into having a privacy-screened conversation? Something.
 
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So, something I just realized from last chapter: Today's date is pretty close to the day Hitomi gave Sayaka her ultimatum in canon.

In fact it should have happened within the last few days really. Of course, given how much Hitomi knows about what's going on, she's unlikely to have initiated that talk or to do so any time soon... but Sayaka thinking about a confession right about now is suspiciously convenient timing.


Sayaka belts it out with a considerable amount of energy. You... were kind of sort of mostly joking before, but she is giving a suspicious number of hints about angels and heaven and whatnot.

... If she's been an angel of the Law of Cycles this entire time you're going to murder her.

... She can't be.

... Right?

... You're going to kill her if she is. She'd be an angel, anyway, she can take it.

*Stern inner world denizenal...*
No that doesn't work at all.
*stern soul fragmental-*
No, not that either... What do you call a fragment of a person in PMMM anyways?
Ah, Yes!
*Stern Clara doll-ly Disapproval*

No Sabrina, don't kill her over it. Just have a discussion and give her the tools she needs to do as she will.

EDIT: Also, Miki-el is trolling us, isn't she? Or trying to goad us into having a privacy-screened conversation? Something.
If I may curb my conspiracy enthusiasm with a dose of rational detachment for a moment, Sayaka doesn't have to be fully aware (or aware at all) to troll us. We were just getting on her case about being an angel and making puns to that effect. She could easily just be indulging her perversity and rolling with it.
 
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