Actually, I vaguely remember someone in thread mentioning one of the girls not witching out because they were at peace with their life. Their gem just went crick-poof or something.
Um...that was Homura in one of the PSP endings
she fights Wally alone, succeeds but is dying.
Madoka promises she'll never contract as she cradles Homura, her Soul Gem at maximum corruption.
Kyubey is confused as instead of birthing a witch, it just crumbles.
It's from one of the PMMM tumblr posters. IIRC, it's the last panel of a comic where, overcome by feels, the author avatar tries to Wish that Homura can be happy.
E: Apparently, I did not recall correctly. The original comic:
It's from one of the PMMM tumblr posters. IIRC, it's the last panel of a comic where, overcome by feels, the author avatar tries to Wish that Homura can be happy.
It's from one of the PMMM tumblr posters. IIRC, it's the last panel of a comic where, overcome by feels, the author avatar tries to Wish that Homura can be happy.
Allow me to clarify: Firstly, there are no multi-clause lawyer wishes. We have no reason to believe these ever/can work, no matter how high the potential of the wisher, and every reason to believe plenty of people have tried. This is the rule in pretty much every fan work ever, as well, for obvious reasons, and including this one. Madoka's canon wish wasn't this, either: She wished to eliminate every witch that had ever existed or would ever exist with her own hands. Ordinarily, the logical paradox(es) this causes would have prevented the wish from manifesting, but Madoka's sheer gigafuck of power forces it upon reality anyway, literally destroying the entire universe and recreating it in her image.
Secondly: If Madoka can make a super rules-lawyer wish that effectively fixes everything with no negative repercussions to anyone, why haven't we had her make it yesterday? Why are we even here? Homura being devastated by Madoka throwing her life away again, resetting the timeline again, and Sabrina suffering critical existence failure as a temporal anomaly are all negative repercussions. It isn't that simple, in part because, thirdly, Madoka already tried making a wish to fix everything, at the power level that literally turned her into a GOD in canon. It (is heavily implied to have) created Sabrina. Fixing everything is our responsibility, not hers, precisely because Madoka making a wish is a failure state.
It's from one of the PMMM tumblr posters. IIRC, it's the last panel of a comic where, overcome by feels, the author avatar tries to Wish that Homura can be happy.
E: Apparently, I did not recall correctly. The original comic:
Why wouldn't wishing for more wishes be possible, In a round about way Homura's wish sort of did end up getting Madoka a thousand more wishes.
I know Madoka supposedly wished to save a cat the first time, but can we really know for sure that there was not a loop before that where Madoka wished for infinite wishes, and Homura just made her self aware of the loops with her wish
Adhoc vote count started by 4Dname on Jun 16, 2017 at 8:01 PM, finished with 118964 posts and 27 votes.
[X] Quietly encourage and reassure Mami.
-[X] Avoid negative conversational turns. Help Mami think positive.
-[X] Cover for Mami if necessary.
-[X] Extra attention to her Gem.
-[X] Let them chat as long as they need.
[X] When appropriate:
-[X] Introduce everyone.
-[X] Explain about your helping meguca thing. And your friends making thing.
-[X] Arrange for the Asunaro visit. Time and place. Let her know how fast you travel, specially in emergencies.
-[X] Let Kazusa know it might be more than just Mami and Sabrina visiting.
-[X] Say goodbye to Kazusa. [X] (Have Kirika) Check if Umika's book is out already. [X] Bring back the Privacy Device.
[X] Discuss who's going to Asunaro, paying special attention to Mami's wishes.
-[X] Explain Hijiri's memory/mind magics: You'd like to have Kirika (and Oriko) along to counter them.
-[X] If not, at least some Anti-Magic Enchantmets?
[X] Comfort Mami
-[X] Be as sappy and inspirational as only you can be.
-[X] Hugs, snuggles, and cuddles are to be deployed at the captain's discretion.
[X] Let Mami to take as much time catching up with her former student as she wants.
-[X] If need be, gently encourage her to talk.
[X] After introductions are made, share the reins between yourself and Mami, inform Kazusa about your abilities, and arrange a visit to free them from the tyranny of grief-seed scarcity.
-[X] As appropriate to the mood, allude that you'd be very happy to cooperate with the Saints both professionally and as friends of friends.
-[X] If they are suffering from serious lack of cleansing, you're more than willing to make a trip over to there immediately.
-[X] Otherwise, check if Mami wants to go with you, and schedule the visit accordingly.
[X] If nothing unexpected crops up, farewell the MikunisKuresMikunisKures.
[X] Once outside the mansion, look to hold a private timestop conversation with Homura
[X] Quietly encourage and reassure Mami.
-[X] Avoid negative conversational turns. Help Mami think positive.
-[X] Cover for Mami if necessary.
-[X] Extra attention to her Gem.
-[X] Let them chat as long as they need.
[X] When appropriate:
-[X] Introduce everyone.
-[X] Explain about your helping meguca thing. And your friends making thing.
-[X] Arrange for the Asunaro visit. Time and place. Let her know how fast you travel, specially in emergencies.
-[X] Let Kazusa know it might be more than just Mami and Sabrina visiting.
-[X] Say goodbye to Kazusa. [X] Bring back the Privacy Device.
[X] Discuss who's going to Asunaro, paying special attention to Mami's wishes.
-[X] Suggest that we look up Umika's books and release dates.
-[X] Discuss Hijiri's motives and what powers she should have access to, along with possible counters.
[X] "Well, Senpai?"
-[X] Let Mami catch up for as long as she needs, providing support as neccessary.
[X] Once they're done, talk to Kazusa about Clear Seeds and how you'd like to visit Asunaro.
-[X] If a visit can't be done from Mitakihara, then they're welcome to send a delegation here if they want their seeds cleared.
[X] If nothing unexpected crops up, farewell the MikunisKuresMikunisKures.
[X] Once outside the mansion, look to hold a private timestop conversation with Homura
[X] Comfort Mami
-[X] Be as sappy and inspirational as only you can be.
[X] Let Mami to take as much time catching up with her former student as she wants.
[X] After introductions are made, share the reigns, and between yourself and Mami inform Kazusa about your abilities and arrange a visit to free them from the tyranny of grief-seed scarcity.
-[X] As appropriate to the mood, allude that you'd be very happy to cooperate with the Saints both professionally and as friends of friends.
-[X] If they are suffering from serious lack of cleansing, you're more than willing to make a trip over to there immediately.
-[X] Otherwise, check if Mami wants to go with you, and schedule the visit accordingly.
[X] If nothing unexpected crops up, farewell the MikunisKuresMikunisKures.
[X] Once outside the mansion, look to hold a private timestop conversation with Homura
[X] Telepathy to Mami: "Take your time. Catch up with your friend. You're doing fine, Mami." -[X] Continue hugging her. Convey your support physically as much as possible. [X] Let Mami take the reins; if your input is needed, interject.
[X] Pull Mami into the best hug you can manage, and just hold it. Heads on shoulders is ideal.
[X] Quietly encourage her. Use light pushes, ideally phrased as questions, to move her forward if she stumbles; if she hits a wall, ask if she'll talk to you about how she's feeling, and make counterarguments or counter-assertions to whatever negative issues are preventing her from holding the conversation. If at any point she either can't or does not want to continue, take over.
-[X] Avoid negative conversational turns. Example, one possible response to Kazusa's question is "Kyubey betrayed me." Push instead in a direction such as "I have a team now." Keep Mami thinking positive as much as possible.
-[X] There will inevitably be pauses in the conversation from Mami's end -- run interference as needed with statements such as "just a moment, please."
-[X] Keep Mami's gem clean.
-[X] Quiet reassurances should be fit in where they seem well-placed. We're here for her.
Adhoc vote count started by 4Dname on Jun 16, 2017 at 11:52 PM, finished with 118966 posts and 27 votes.
[X] Quietly encourage and reassure Mami.
-[X] Avoid negative conversational turns. Help Mami think positive.
-[X] Cover for Mami if necessary.
-[X] Extra attention to her Gem.
-[X] Let them chat as long as they need.
[X] When appropriate:
-[X] Introduce everyone.
-[X] Explain about your helping meguca thing. And your friends making thing.
-[X] Arrange for the Asunaro visit. Time and place. Let her know how fast you travel, specially in emergencies.
-[X] Let Kazusa know it might be more than just Mami and Sabrina visiting.
-[X] Say goodbye to Kazusa. [X] (Have Kirika) Check if Umika's book is out already. [X] Bring back the Privacy Device.
[X] Discuss who's going to Asunaro, paying special attention to Mami's wishes.
-[X] Explain Hijiri's memory/mind magics: You'd like to have Kirika (and Oriko) along to counter them.
-[X] If not, at least some Anti-Magic Enchantmets?
[X] Comfort Mami
-[X] Be as sappy and inspirational as only you can be.
-[X] Hugs, snuggles, and cuddles are to be deployed at the captain's discretion.
[X] Let Mami to take as much time catching up with her former student as she wants.
-[X] If need be, gently encourage her to talk.
[X] After introductions are made, share the reins between yourself and Mami, inform Kazusa about your abilities, and arrange a visit to free them from the tyranny of grief-seed scarcity.
-[X] As appropriate to the mood, allude that you'd be very happy to cooperate with the Saints both professionally and as friends of friends.
-[X] If they are suffering from serious lack of cleansing, you're more than willing to make a trip over to there immediately.
-[X] Otherwise, check if Mami wants to go with you, and schedule the visit accordingly.
[X] If nothing unexpected crops up, farewell the MikunisKuresMikunisKures.
[X] Once outside the mansion, look to hold a private timestop conversation with Homura
[X] Quietly encourage and reassure Mami.
-[X] Avoid negative conversational turns. Help Mami think positive.
-[X] Cover for Mami if necessary.
-[X] Extra attention to her Gem.
-[X] Let them chat as long as they need.
[X] When appropriate:
-[X] Introduce everyone.
-[X] Explain about your helping meguca thing. And your friends making thing.
-[X] Arrange for the Asunaro visit. Time and place. Let her know how fast you travel, specially in emergencies.
-[X] Let Kazusa know it might be more than just Mami and Sabrina visiting.
-[X] Say goodbye to Kazusa. [X] Bring back the Privacy Device.
[X] Discuss who's going to Asunaro, paying special attention to Mami's wishes.
-[X] Suggest that we look up Umika's books and release dates.
-[X] Discuss Hijiri's motives and what powers she should have access to, along with possible counters.
[X] "Well, Senpai?"
-[X] Let Mami catch up for as long as she needs, providing support as neccessary.
[X] Once they're done, talk to Kazusa about Clear Seeds and how you'd like to visit Asunaro.
-[X] If a visit can't be done from Mitakihara, then they're welcome to send a delegation here if they want their seeds cleared.
[X] If nothing unexpected crops up, farewell the MikunisKuresMikunisKures.
[X] Once outside the mansion, look to hold a private timestop conversation with Homura
[X] Comfort Mami
-[X] Be as sappy and inspirational as only you can be.
[X] Let Mami to take as much time catching up with her former student as she wants.
[X] After introductions are made, share the reigns, and between yourself and Mami inform Kazusa about your abilities and arrange a visit to free them from the tyranny of grief-seed scarcity.
-[X] As appropriate to the mood, allude that you'd be very happy to cooperate with the Saints both professionally and as friends of friends.
-[X] If they are suffering from serious lack of cleansing, you're more than willing to make a trip over to there immediately.
-[X] Otherwise, check if Mami wants to go with you, and schedule the visit accordingly.
[X] If nothing unexpected crops up, farewell the MikunisKuresMikunisKures.
[X] Once outside the mansion, look to hold a private timestop conversation with Homura
[X] Telepathy to Mami: "Take your time. Catch up with your friend. You're doing fine, Mami." -[X] Continue hugging her. Convey your support physically as much as possible. [X] Let Mami take the reins; if your input is needed, interject.
[X] Pull Mami into the best hug you can manage, and just hold it. Heads on shoulders is ideal.
[X] Quietly encourage her. Use light pushes, ideally phrased as questions, to move her forward if she stumbles; if she hits a wall, ask if she'll talk to you about how she's feeling, and make counterarguments or counter-assertions to whatever negative issues are preventing her from holding the conversation. If at any point she either can't or does not want to continue, take over.
-[X] Avoid negative conversational turns. Example, one possible response to Kazusa's question is "Kyubey betrayed me." Push instead in a direction such as "I have a team now." Keep Mami thinking positive as much as possible.
-[X] There will inevitably be pauses in the conversation from Mami's end -- run interference as needed with statements such as "just a moment, please."
-[X] Keep Mami's gem clean.
-[X] Quiet reassurances should be fit in where they seem well-placed. We're here for her.
Adhoc vote count started by 4Dname on Jun 17, 2017 at 12:14 PM, finished with 118976 posts and 27 votes.
[X] Quietly encourage and reassure Mami.
-[X] Avoid negative conversational turns. Help Mami think positive.
-[X] Cover for Mami if necessary.
-[X] Extra attention to her Gem.
-[X] Let them chat as long as they need.
[X] When appropriate:
-[X] Introduce everyone.
-[X] Explain about your helping meguca thing. And your friends making thing.
-[X] Arrange for the Asunaro visit. Time and place. Let her know how fast you travel, specially in emergencies.
-[X] Let Kazusa know it might be more than just Mami and Sabrina visiting.
-[X] Say goodbye to Kazusa. [X] (Have Kirika) Check if Umika's book is out already. [X] Bring back the Privacy Device.
[X] Discuss who's going to Asunaro, paying special attention to Mami's wishes.
-[X] Explain Hijiri's memory/mind magics: You'd like to have Kirika (and Oriko) along to counter them.
-[X] If not, at least some Anti-Magic Enchantmets?
[X] Comfort Mami
-[X] Be as sappy and inspirational as only you can be.
-[X] Hugs, snuggles, and cuddles are to be deployed at the captain's discretion.
[X] Let Mami to take as much time catching up with her former student as she wants.
-[X] If need be, gently encourage her to talk.
[X] After introductions are made, share the reins between yourself and Mami, inform Kazusa about your abilities, and arrange a visit to free them from the tyranny of grief-seed scarcity.
-[X] As appropriate to the mood, allude that you'd be very happy to cooperate with the Saints both professionally and as friends of friends.
-[X] If they are suffering from serious lack of cleansing, you're more than willing to make a trip over to there immediately.
-[X] Otherwise, check if Mami wants to go with you, and schedule the visit accordingly.
[X] If nothing unexpected crops up, farewell the MikunisKuresMikunisKures.
[X] Once outside the mansion, look to hold a private timestop conversation with Homura
[X] Quietly encourage and reassure Mami.
-[X] Avoid negative conversational turns. Help Mami think positive.
-[X] Cover for Mami if necessary.
-[X] Extra attention to her Gem.
-[X] Let them chat as long as they need.
[X] When appropriate:
-[X] Introduce everyone.
-[X] Explain about your helping meguca thing. And your friends making thing.
-[X] Arrange for the Asunaro visit. Time and place. Let her know how fast you travel, specially in emergencies.
-[X] Let Kazusa know it might be more than just Mami and Sabrina visiting.
-[X] Say goodbye to Kazusa. [X] Bring back the Privacy Device.
[X] Discuss who's going to Asunaro, paying special attention to Mami's wishes.
-[X] Suggest that we look up Umika's books and release dates.
-[X] Discuss Hijiri's motives and what powers she should have access to, along with possible counters.
[X] "Well, Senpai?"
-[X] Let Mami catch up for as long as she needs, providing support as neccessary.
[X] Once they're done, talk to Kazusa about Clear Seeds and how you'd like to visit Asunaro.
-[X] If a visit can't be done from Mitakihara, then they're welcome to send a delegation here if they want their seeds cleared.
[X] If nothing unexpected crops up, farewell the MikunisKuresMikunisKures.
[X] Once outside the mansion, look to hold a private timestop conversation with Homura
[X] Comfort Mami
-[X] Be as sappy and inspirational as only you can be.
[X] Let Mami to take as much time catching up with her former student as she wants.
[X] After introductions are made, share the reigns, and between yourself and Mami inform Kazusa about your abilities and arrange a visit to free them from the tyranny of grief-seed scarcity.
-[X] As appropriate to the mood, allude that you'd be very happy to cooperate with the Saints both professionally and as friends of friends.
-[X] If they are suffering from serious lack of cleansing, you're more than willing to make a trip over to there immediately.
-[X] Otherwise, check if Mami wants to go with you, and schedule the visit accordingly.
[X] If nothing unexpected crops up, farewell the MikunisKuresMikunisKures.
[X] Once outside the mansion, look to hold a private timestop conversation with Homura
[X] Telepathy to Mami: "Take your time. Catch up with your friend. You're doing fine, Mami." -[X] Continue hugging her. Convey your support physically as much as possible. [X] Let Mami take the reins; if your input is needed, interject.
[X] Pull Mami into the best hug you can manage, and just hold it. Heads on shoulders is ideal.
[X] Quietly encourage her. Use light pushes, ideally phrased as questions, to move her forward if she stumbles; if she hits a wall, ask if she'll talk to you about how she's feeling, and make counterarguments or counter-assertions to whatever negative issues are preventing her from holding the conversation. If at any point she either can't or does not want to continue, take over.
-[X] Avoid negative conversational turns. Example, one possible response to Kazusa's question is "Kyubey betrayed me." Push instead in a direction such as "I have a team now." Keep Mami thinking positive as much as possible.
-[X] There will inevitably be pauses in the conversation from Mami's end -- run interference as needed with statements such as "just a moment, please."
-[X] Keep Mami's gem clean.
-[X] Quiet reassurances should be fit in where they seem well-placed. We're here for her.
On the classic "Wish for more Wishes": I always assumed the contract gave the MG exactly that, the power to grant her own wishes. However, since reality warping is assumedly really fucking expensive, These megucas tend to have the fastest Wish ==> Witch time in the world hands down, since they tend to try and abuse the superpowers they just got to get everything they want. Even the ones smart enough to last to the point where they realize they need to hunt to survive tend to self-destruct on the "I wish the Witch was dead" wish, since it probably is ludicrously more expensive than doing it the standard way.
Allow me to clarify: Firstly, there are no multi-clause lawyer wishes. We have no reason to believe these ever/can work, no matter how high the potential of the wisher, and every reason to believe plenty of people have tried. This is the rule in pretty much every fan work ever, as well, for obvious reasons, and including this one. Madoka's canon wish wasn't this, either: She wished to eliminate every witch that had ever existed or would ever exist with her own hands. Ordinarily, the logical paradox(es) this causes would have prevented the wish from manifesting, but Madoka's sheer gigafuck of power forces it upon reality anyway, literally destroying the entire universe and recreating it in her image.
Secondly: If Madoka can make a super rules-lawyer wish that effectively fixes everything with no negative repercussions to anyone, why haven't we had her make it yesterday? Why are we even here? Homura being devastated by Madoka throwing her life away again, resetting the timeline again, and Sabrina suffering critical existence failure as a temporal anomaly are all negative repercussions. It isn't that simple, in part because, thirdly, Madoka already tried making a wish to fix everything, at the power level that literally turned her into a GOD in canon. It (is heavily implied to have) created Sabrina. Fixing everything is our responsibility, not hers, precisely because Madoka making a wish is a failure state.
Not to disagree with the majority of this, but we've kiiinda seen multiclause wishes before? "I want to redo my meeting with Kaname-san, and instead of being the one being protected, I want to be the one to protect her" can be argued as two ideas. Atleast as much as a hypothetical "I want to become a Magical Girl in such a way that Homura has nothing to worry about anymore" wish.
Wishes work off the single intent, not the amount of sentence clauses.
Regardless, Homura simply will not allow Madoka to wish. I'm pretty sure that's so imbedded in her psyche at this point that no amount of social will change that. It'd be like convincing Kyouko to take up veganism, or convincing Sayaka not to paladin.
But yea, no, if you want to prevent a contract, any pratfall attempts will make her rules lawyer. The ONLY thing that will work with any reliability is simply telling her how badly the mere act of contracting will hurt Homura, and keeping all her friends alive so she doesn't feel pressured to raise the dead with a wish.
It's from one of the PMMM tumblr posters. IIRC, it's the last panel of a comic where, overcome by feels, the author avatar tries to Wish that Homura can be happy.
Ooh I'm in a nice stew of emotions tonight.
So I just finished watching all of Madoka Magica for the first time.
I didn't actually tear up until the end, even. Ave Maria always gets me, no matter the series. That and seeing Homura seemingly happy really made me happy, after everything she went through, she definitely deserved it. And the best part? If all goes right, This quest shall be an even better outcome. If all goes right, everyone can truly be happy... at least, I can hope, that is.
I've gained a new appreciation for Homura, though it still can't trump the love for Mami that this quest has given me. She jumped up from being one of my least favorites from the meguca squad, to second favorite. Even if she apparently does everything wrong in Rebellion. I feel pricks of held back sadness in my stomach. Out of all the Animes I've fully watched, of which there are very few, PMMM has to be the best. Actually watching has also made me really hate Kyuubey, instead of just acknowledging that he's a very bad person and not actually hating him. Now I can truly participate that much more in this quest.
I just felt this was the best thread to vent this out on, y'know? Kinda felt like I just "had" to get my impressions and thoughts out there. Ah, such a beautiful sadness I can feel, what a grand series, a grand work to inflict such feelings upon me, where so many others could do nothing to the fortress that seems to be my emotions. Being Meguca truly is Suffering!
Man, I really need to stop making crazy ranting posts on quest threads in the middle of the night...
Not to disagree with the majority of this, but we've kiiinda seen multiclause wishes before? "I want to redo my meeting with Kaname-san, and instead of being the one being protected, I want to be the one to protect her" can be argued as two ideas. Atleast as much as a hypothetical "I want to become a Magical Girl in such a way that Homura has nothing to worry about anymore" wish.
Wishes work off the single intent, not the amount of sentence clauses.
Anonymous user who PMed me so I can deal with this all at once said:
Not only did Aura provide the Homura example, but the Madowish you provided is multi-clausal itself. "with my own hands" is an additional clause. As is "in every world". As is "before they are born". In addition, Madoka elabourated on her wish extensively after that.
Not only can Madoka create a multi-clause wish that fixes everything, she did so in canon.
[cut]
That said, I acknowledged that there is only one Madowish, so we have to learn as much as possible about the issues to ensure it is properly rules lawyered if necessary.
Also, I agree with Higure and consider stopping Madoka fro wishing to be cruelty to her, as she is incapable of being happy without a wish.
Blegh, time to argue semantics. It isn't super easy to describe, but the main thrust of my point is that single intent-- you only get to wish for one thing, even if you make that one thing super specific.
In short: "I want to zippity zap blippity blap every witch ever, forever, retroactively, personally, and before they're even born" is one thing. "I wish to control grief! My own! That of others! The grief of the Witches! All of it!" is one thing. "I want a pink and green motorcycle with jet engines, missile launchers, and a beer cooler" is one thing, since they're all stuck together-- asking for the beer cooler separately wouldn't fly, because then you're wishing for two things. Homura's wish could be phrased as "I want to start over with Madoka, with me as the hero and her as the damsel"-- it's kind of an edge case, I guess, since it could easily be two things, but it's parsed as a singular intent, and it's also where things start breaking down metaphysically.
Conversely, "I wish that nothing I did ever had negative repercussions" and "I wish that I'd never become a Witch" are each one thing, but "I wish that X, without it ever having negative repercussions" and "I wish that X, without me ever becoming a Witch" are each two things; the clause stapled onto the end isn't related to the core idea, it's you trying to cover your ass by trying to game the system.
Also, Madoka's canon wish doesn't fix everything; she spares Homura from the rewrite (which she presumably could have not done), and Rebellion happens as a consequence. "I want to become a Magical Girl in such a way that Homura has nothing to worry about anymore" would be an excellent and elegant way to pull Homura out of the pit she's dug herself, but both solutions would work by implicitly mind whammying Homura, which is... morally dubious (aside from providing no insurance against her witching out and destroying the world as Kriemhild Gretchen, in the latter case). Which brings me to the most important point:
Any wish Madoka makes that doesn't involve brainwashing Homura (or someone else brainwashing her immediately afterwards) will inevitably result in one of the following, in order of availability:
-Resetting time (likely erasing Sabrina as a consequence)
-Leveraging every conceivable resource to undo her wish
-Despair
-Suicide
Any wish Madoka makes that doesn't involve brainwashing Homura (or someone else brainwashing her immediately afterwards) will inevitably result in one of the following, in order of availability:
"I wish I was a Sailor Moon style magical girl with none of this grief metaphysics garbage."
Even with your (quite tortured, in my opinion) ideas of what constitute multi-clause wishes, this wish should have only a singe intent behind it - and there's a whole lot more potential wishes that solve the issue as well.
Conversely, "I wish that nothing I did ever had negative repercussions" and "I wish that I'd never become a Witch" are each one thing, but "I wish that X, without it ever having negative repercussions" and "I wish that X, without me ever becoming a Witch" are each two things; the clause stapled onto the end isn't related to the core idea, it's you trying to cover your ass by trying to game the system.
But the clause on the end is related to the core idea.
When you make a wish like "I want a pink and green motorcycle with jet engines, missile launchers, and a beer cooler," the core concept ("I want a motorcycle") is modified by other clauses ("It needs a beer cooler") that specify/narrow the implementation.
The other random clauses on the end (whether they're verbalized or expressed through intent) are viable because they narrow the solution-space of the core of the Wish. Similarly, adding clauses like "-without it having negative repercussions" or "-without me ever becoming a Witch" also narrows the solution-space of the Wish.
"I want to become a Magical Girl in such a way that Homura has nothing to worry about anymore" would be an excellent and elegant way to pull Homura out of the pit she's dug herself, but both solutions would work by implicitly mind whammying Homura
Er, no. Madoka's intention constrains the solution-space of the Wish, and she doesn't want to mind-whammy Homura.
A Wish from someone with Madoka's potential wouldn't fuck her over by failing to give her what she wants, or giving her what she wants in the wrong way. If the Wish was to fuck her over, it would fuck her over because she wanted the wrong thing.
If she wished to "become a Magical Girl in such a way that Homura has nothing to worry about anymore" then she would be more likely to (for example) end up as immortal and impossible to Witch (and probably get the insight and social-fu to defuse Homura), rather than fall into such an abject failure state as to mind-whammy Homura.
"I Wish Homura would finally win, earn her happy ending, and get the girl! This is my Wish, so grant it, Kyuubey!"
'Not even you can accomplish a miracle on such a grand sc- OH SHIT IT'S HAPPENING!'
The universe shook.
A pink sun erupted from Madoka's chest, bathing the city in light.
A shaking, reaching hand was denied.
But the purple gem on its back glowed. Glowed with such intensity to match the pink sun enveloping it, and join it.
For a second and an eternity, all was white.
When the World came back into existance, there was Madoka.
A sweeping white dress covered her form; a golden band was held in her hands, a pink gemstone set in it.
She held no weapons.
Madoka swept the veil from her eyes to see Homura standing up.
Her purple eyes were wide in shock.
Her outfit had changed; her now black jacket worn slightly open at the top, showing a pink-almost-white shirt underneath. Her skirt and leggings coloured to match, and her Soul Gem...
Resembled Madoka's. Absent from its usual place; Homura opened her hand to reveal the golden band, the purple diamond shining brightly on it.
Slowly, very slowly, pink and purple eyes rose to meet each other, each one mirroring the trembling confusion and horror they both shared.
"EHHHHHHH?!" they both cried together.
Both girls were distracted out of their red faced shock by the sound of sniffing and tears.
They turned to find Sabrina and Mami, still in their battle outfits, dirtied from fighting. The white haired girl was crying uncontrollably, held by the golden magical girl who was close to doing the same.
"It's- it's so beau- so beautiful!" exclaimed Sabrina amidst sobs, before burying her head against Mami's shoulder and letting the tears of happiness flow freely.
Homura gaped. Madoka tried to form words to no avail.
Then a multitude arrived. Sayaka and Kyouko walked in first, each one holding the other's hand.
Oriko and Kirika watched with shy smiles, their outfits a pale reflection of those of Homura and Madoka.
Junko stumbled in, a bottle in hand; Tomohisa held her upright with one arm, the other one carrying Tatsuya.
Walpurgisnacht cried in the distance, wiping at her eyes with her sleeves.
Hitomi, arm in arm with Kyousuke, nodded her consent at the proceedings.
Kyousuke's violin set against his shoulder, he started to play.
His violin sung a song of joy, of love, and new meetings.
Feathers swoop around, dropping red petals on everyone present.
Masami, Hiroko, Ayaka, Kazumi, and a horde of other girls stood beside Mami, and made peace.
Kazuko Saotome cried for what she could never have. Somewhere, Nakazawa knew he would be hearing the end of it.
Nagisa, Shin, Yuma and her grandparents, Ono, even Homura's parents were there, too.
And at some point an altar had risen between Homura and Madoka, a red carpet leading from each ones's feet to it.
Kyouko stood behind the altar, ready to join the two in matrimony.
Homura looked once more into Madoka's eyes, and saw the fear she herself felt. With an effort of will and a touch of magic, she calmed down her own beating heart, and gave the other girl the most serene smile she could.
'Yolo' she muttered to herself, taking the first step.
I dunno, the YOLO at the end was pretty shitty. I believe that there's an argument that it undermines Homura's driving narrative of multiple "lives" by mocking it with deliberate contradiction between the seriousness of the Homura's story and the shittiness of the vocabulary, undermining the shittiness with an ironic display of literary value. However, I also believe that that argument is itself shitty and that the ending of the omake is grade-A 100% shitpost.
I dunno, the YOLO at the end was pretty shitty. I believe that there's an argument that it undermines Homura's driving narrative of multiple "lives" by mocking it with deliberate contradiction between the seriousness of the Homura's story and the shittiness of the vocabulary, undermining the shittiness with an ironic display of literary value. However, I also believe that that argument is itself shitty and that the ending of the omake is grade-A 100% shitpost.
Can we get some of SV's Advocates in here? This is a serious allegation and both sides of the issue should be carefully argued by trained internet professionals.
Any wish Madoka makes that doesn't involve brainwashing Homura (or someone else brainwashing her immediately afterwards) will inevitably result in one of the following, in order of availability:
Mami doesn't seem particularly more powerful. It's also hard to judge this because she is absolutely bullshit awesome to the max. It's possible that having these extra karmic connections might've upped her potential, especially since Mami made a Karmic Fuckery wish, but it doesn't seem the norm for a Magical Girl's potential to change after their contract. Atleast not because of making friends. We don't see any potential changes from Sayaka and Kyouko interacting, for example.
I don't think you've accounted for the bias in your sample. Meguca with high potential have a greater chance of surviving longer. So we're more likely to meet high-potential meguca because the low-potential meguca died before we got the chance. Or, put an other way, we've met lots of low-potential meguca, but by the time we meet them, they're called "witches."
We've also got several veteran meguca in our group. In a field where the typical lifespan is measured in weeks or months, Mami has lasted for years and Homura for about a decade. Experience counts for a lot. Mami's most impressive moves have been expressions of her skill, rather than of raw power. That's what makes them so incredible.
(It is possible that Sayaka's potential was higher in this timeline because of the stuff that happened to her before she contracted, however. The course of her life and her reasons for wishing were very different this time around.)
I'll focus on Mami, since that's the particular issue that prompted this line of speculation, and she's the one cross-timeline datapoint we have that isn't fudged with by other things.
The origin of my thoughts here aren't along the lines of "AHA, Mami is 15% stronger! This means something!" (That would require her being at her Rebellion capabilities [only hard timeline data], which takes place at least 18 months later given the teacher talking about the Mayan Apocalypse having come and gone.) Rather my thoughts are "Hunh, Mami is connecting more deeply to certain people in this timeline. Is that a general rule? Is there a root cause? Is her wish part of it?"
Given that the main point of interest here, taking Michiru Kazusa under her wing, occurred well before Homura looped in and we appeared, this wouldn't be something that was attached to Mami after the fact, it would have been present in the timeline from the beginning.
For reference, despite the work I've put into it, it's at roughly the same level in my mind now as "is something up with Sayaka?" after she first showed sympathy for Gertrude back in Entanglement. Low evidence and I'd need to dedicate a reading to it, but it's on my mind.
Human souls need to be able to make something more energy dense then Grief.
There will always be Incubators, even if they are not the bunnycats. It's a ecological niche. And how do you effect a ecological niche? Via the resources that made the strategy viable in the first place. There needs to be something better then Grief, and the system that produces Grief. And i think that i have found the thing that would be the best option to have be the thing everything is being optimised for. Grief is caused by people wanting something, and then not getting that thing, so i think that we should try to cause the act of fulfilling/soothing/achieving a source of Grief (Their goal.) to generate a type of fuel that is better then Grief. If it's energy efficient then it becomes a ecological niche.
Perhaps that might work, but would it truly be better? Consider that the hope that magical girls use fuels their wishes and magic, and so from that perspective it and its effects remain part of human society. The grief and despair of witches, on the other hand may affect humanity for a time, but all indication is that it is eventually carted off-world.
Exactly how subtle and far reaching the effects of that are is up for debate. It may well be that the effects of magic and curses don't last a moment beyond the use of their magic for something concrete and physical. Nevertheless, PMMM's humanity has been on a generally upwards path, and it's worth considering that that may be because they exist in a system where grief slowly leaves the planet while hope remains circulating within the system. (and perhaps things that touch karma of a certain charge become imbued with it)
Also a few of my contributions to some theory chat from Discord, since I didn't want to retype it all:
First What are Incubators doing with grief seeds anyways? and WALPURGISNACHT X10COMBO!
Phoenixian-Today at 2:22 AM
So here's a question, what happens to a grief seed after an incubator eats it?
Is it hatched, and the resulting witch put to best purpose to reverse entropy? Is the grief manipulated directly, removed from the seed as Sabrina does? Is it destroyed in some manner, the grief burned to release latent energy?(edited)
AuraTwilight-Today at 2:29 AM
the implication in PMAS is that Grief Seeds generate grief over time, making them truely infinite sources of energy
so they're kept somewhere to be forever siphoned.
It makes the most sense to me and we've got pretty good certainty Kyubey doesn't destroy Grief Seeds because A) He explicitly considers something exactly analogous to it wasteful, and B) It's strongly implied he planted Charlotte and thus he holds onto Grief Seeds for SOME period of time.
Subrosian_Smithy-Today at 2:39 AM
the implication in PMAS is that Grief Seeds generate grief over time, making them truely infinite sources of energy
It's strangely helpful to think about this. If I'm getting into a depressive spiral it actually snaps me out of it to think that eternal melancholy and suffering is right where Kyubey wants me. No way am I playing along with that marshmallow fucker.(edited)
AuraTwilight-Today at 2:39 AM
Yea pretty much
Witches dream in Grief Seeds and still produce seeds.
It's the other reason why producing Clear Seeds is such a moral part of our process; the witches inside are in non-REM sleep, don't dream, and don't suffer.
Gangsta McBrinaizzle-Today at 2:44 AM
Hmm, would there be a way to, I dunno, make them have good, not suffering dreams?
Or is that too outside our purview?
Phoenixian-Today at 2:45 AM
Sure, fill the empty space with hope.
Gangsta McBrinaizzle-Today at 2:45 AM
But what is Hope exactly?
I mean, in the context of
Being the opposite of grief
AuraTwilight-Today at 2:45 AM
exactly what it sounds like.
Gangsta McBrinaizzle-Today at 2:46 AM
Like, what is it as a substance, how to get it, use if, that kind of thing.
AuraTwilight-Today at 2:46 AM
it's the same thing as magic.
Everything a Puella Magi does is fueled by Hope.
Phoenixian-Today at 2:46 AM
And using it in this context is likely a matter of enchanting.
Gangsta McBrinaizzle-Today at 2:47 AM
So...somehow find a way to fill a Grief/Clear Seed with raw magic energy?
Or something?
Phoenixian-Today at 2:48 AM
Or something. I recall there were also a couple things we tried with Hildegard that were just out of reach, and it may be useful to make some attempts on a fuller, more "active" clear seed.
AuraTwilight-Today at 2:50 AM
it's probably something Soulguca could do.
Gangsta McBrinaizzle-Today at 2:52 AM
Hmm, it's either fill with raw magic, or the weird thing I'm thinking of, is if you bypass raw magic through a Seed and maybe the biproduct is Hope
...or again, I could be dumb wrong
Phoenixian-Today at 2:58 AM
As far as seed grief generation goes: a couple counter-thoughts: We see that the Sendai squad are able to stockpile seeds. [and on a side-note, something about Akiko's talk in both Undue Alarm and We've Got Hostiles makes me think she saw Setsuko witch out and has been holding onto her seed ever since, using the others seeds she collects as a security buffer to not use that one.]
If that's the case it sets the bar for constant production fairly low. And then we see that Charlotte hatched in canon only shortly after Nagisa would have likely contracted in PMAS. The underlying implication is that the timeframe is similar to canon. Given the turnaround on Charlotte and the way Kyuubey shows Sayaka what it's like to be stabbed, do you wonder if the Incubators can do that to grief seeds too, and aren't just waiting, but rather actively cause suffering to up grief production from baseline?(edited)
Subrosian_Smithy-Today at 3:11 AM
My first thought on the Nagisa/Charlotte timeline was just "timeline fuckery" (either from Firn or from Madoka's wish, or both) But actually, if the Incubators are going in and torturing their captive Grief Seeds, that makes a ton of sense. And it makes me hate them even more than I already do.
(edited)
Phoenixian-Today at 4:46 AM
Mmmm. I can sort of understand that and I sort of can't: There's not much use in hating something that won't change as a result of that hate. Especially not when there's something to learn.
Regardless, I'd want to get the proper story though, seeing as what we have now is still supposition. After all there are alternate possibilities: if Incubators can control soul gems, they might be able to control witches from within seeds, instead of torture. Or might use other methods. If that's the case then we can check as the Incubators will probably be very interested in studying new powersets: The implication I get is that you can use familiars to clone a witch after all, but only if you get it in the first place. (Now envision Kyuubey, aping the scene from Metroid fusion: Homura you know that witches reproduce asexually. There are now no fewer than ten Walpurgisnachts on this station.)
Subrosian_Smithy-Today at 5:13 AM
There's not much use in hating something that won't change as a result of that hate. Especially not when there's something to learn.
Well, yeah, I know that hating alone doesn't change anything - but. While I have some control over what I feel (e.g. CBT, mindfulness), it's not total; for the most part, I don't feel my emotions as considered means to an end, I just feel as a reaction. If it turns out that Kyubey has been torturing his Grief Seeds (probably numbering in the thousands or millions) for indefinite amounts of time (probably at least thousands of years), then of course I'm going to hate him (so far as I can hate any fictional character, but whatever). And then, supposing I could change my emotions directly - why would I not want to hate him, under those circumstances? I don't want to get eaten up by that hate and suffer for it, or act irrationally because of that hate, or just think in unhelpful ways because of that hate. But hate (as an emotion) is a crucial motivator to action, and it's self-defeating to want to undermine your own motivations.
Regardless, I'd want to get the proper story though, seeing as what we have now is still supposition.
Agreed.
Now envision Kyuubey, aping the scene from Metroid fusion: Homura you know that witches reproduce asexually. There are now no fewer than ten Walpurgisnachts on this station.
Oh god, I never thought about Walpy reproducing. If it was going to reproduce on its own, I think it probably would have done that already and overrun the Earth (or at least gotten Kyubey to intervene for the sake of the petri dish). But if we stop Walmart and we don't deal with all of the Familiars, I could see the Familiars snacking on humans to regrow into another Waluigi (or at least, a miniature or scaled down Walpurgis). But again, speculation. edited)
Phoenixian-Today at 5:30 AM
As far as Walpurgisnacht goes, One imagines Walpurgisnacht might be like a metastatic cancer: Speculation I've heard implies the witch grows by assimilating other witches, which would naturally include those spawned by its own familiars. Once a it's dead however, any familiars are free to grow back into a copy of Walpurgisnacht can do so without being absorbed (In the same way that cancerous tumors produce antiangiogenics that shut down the growth of other tumors, until they're removed.)
(edited)
Firnagzen-Today at 5:32 AM
Heh.
So in a hypothetical timeline (sans brina) where homu beats Walpurgisnacht...
Ten more come along.
All Witches' Night-Today at 5:33 AM
trauma intensifies
Phoenixian-Today at 5:35 AM
Explains how she's a mythic witch at least. People did beat her! And then decades to centuries later one of her familiars matures...
All Witches' Night-Today at 5:37 AM
Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.
Subrosian_Smithy-Today at 5:39 AM
if a Walpurgis Familiar matured back into the full entity, do you think it would go and round up any other immature Walpurgis Familiars?
Phoenixian-Today at 5:40 AM
I would.
All Witches' Night-Today at 5:40 AM
Two words: Highlander Walpurgis.
Subrosian_Smithy-Today at 5:40 AM
THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE
All Witches' Night-Today at 5:40 AM
Does this mean I have to fight Fanfic and Godwin to the death now?
Blast Flame-Today at 5:41 AM
That would reduce the chances of another familiar eventually maturing and thus reduce the drama caused by how ultimately pointless the struggle of those who seek to defeat her is
So no
pantherasapiens-Today at 5:41 AM
There's enough Earth for multiple Walpys to roam, man.
Phoenixian-Today at 5:41 AM
Yeah, but what got me thinking about witch reproduction wasn't actually Walpurgisnacht. It was the words "We've met our quota" And the witch associated with that line.
A crisis of infinite Kriemhild Gretchins.
Subrosian_Smithy-Today at 5:42 AM
thats scary
All Witches' Night-Today at 5:43 AM
Is now imagining a bunch of different anthro Gretchens meeting and asking "WTF?"(edited)
Subrosian_Smithy-Today at 5:44 AM
Oversoul!Madoka comes and pimp-slaps them all
Phoenixian-Today at 5:44 AM
It makes sudden sense that that one witch would suddenly be enough for the incubators though: Penultimate Gretchin's potential was likely also nigh-universe level, so the incubators may have been planning to use her and her copies to flat out create new universes.
And second: Emotion and Karma is the nuclear waste of the universe.
Let's say, for instance, that the physics of PMMM are such that you cannot comprehend emotional decisions at better than a certain degree of fidelity without generating them, and that generating emotions leads to souls forming and causing those emotions to work at full fidelity... and full priority. (Write a program, game or book that allows interaction with emotion? Well, you've poured your soul into it. Literally.)
From there.. well, how animist do you want to go? Because you can run with it if you want.
You can run far. Say that every rock touched by human magic will start behaving at least somewhat karmically and then it's not that PMMM's humans are fundamentally incomprehensible, it's that they're basically radioactive.
Let's say in the case of Kyuubey this could end up with those emotions connecting to the rest of the mental network. Let's say that in the worst case scenario that could make the Incubators as a whole unable (well unwilling, but same thing to a monofocused being) to carry through with their plans. Or, alternatively, terribly inefficient in planning. Or worse that they're the interface between humanity and everything else.
Put it in those terms and Kyuubey isn't incapable of understanding emotions as a fault: The incomprehension is essentially a hazmat suit.
You still get to say that there's a fundamental part of the universe making this a major problem, but you're making a much different kind of leap to do so. And you go from "this is literally incomprehensible" to "judgement: not worth the risk"
Not a complete idea by any means, but I felt it worth throwing an alternative out.
(edited)
