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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Not changing my vote, but a couple questions:
-Can the vote be compressed at all? I agree with Muramasa that it's a little on the big side, and things like "don't discuss mission-sensitive information outside of a privacy field" should be implicit to the Brinapilot.
-What did we want to talk to Homura about, again? I vaguely recall that we wanted to go on a shopping spree, and apologize again for the Walpurgisnacht gaffe, but I'm not sure that the latter is really necessary-- we just dropped a bomb on her that Asunaro has the potential to solve literally all of her problems, and I don't want to break her out of that train of thought, especially if we're just going to be reminding her why she should be pissed at us.

Unrelated: It does seem to be implied by what we know that Witch's witchstuff contains a blueprint of the original girl's mind/soul, at least part of which should be passed on to familiars they create (as they're made out of the same stuff). Familiars likely hunt humans to amass enough grief to resume their original form and to devour human souls to fill in the gaps in their "DNA"-- were we able to discover mature duplicates of the same Witch (feeding familiars is verboten), it might be possible, hypothetically, to dewitch both/all of them into copies of the original magical girl.
 
Phigment said:
Have we ever seen two duplicate witches?

If familiars mature into duplicates of their parent witch, you would expect there to be cases where one witch was defeated, had multiple familiars escape, and they matured into multiple independent copies of that witch.

Unless there's some factor preventing that, like a mature instance of a witch automatically suppresses or controls any familiars spawned by a previous instance of the same witch. And that could be; again, we just don't have a very detailed look at how it works.
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might be a thing where the the content of the familiar's diet affects their form. Like, they eat enough souls in order to mature, and the content of the souls affects the appearance.

The Narrator said:
(How she got them to all witch simultaneously out regardless of how full they were is another question.)
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Accelerated grief generation by the grief speck inside?
 
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The Narrator said:
Well, judging by the summary on the wiki, Kanna Hijiri's "Connect" power works on meguca other than the Pleiades, since she was able to use it to connect to the Soul Gems in the Freezer and turn them into a superwitch. (How she got them to all witch simultaneously out regardless of how full they were is another question.)
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Hijiri did all that using Mirai's power set, and those girls were put in the Freezer because they were on the verge of witching out anyway.

Re:duplicate witches, in the PSP game, Mami encounters Giselle twice in her backstory and defeats it, while Kyouko also defeats it in her backstory in the anime. So familiars definitely grow into clones.

Re: Breaking Soul Gems/Grief Seeds, Soul Gems are eggs. You can't make them unbreakable because they need to shatter to release the Grief Seed inside. The Grief Seed's destruction releases the Witch inside. And...honestly, Sayaka's the only witch-out that results in the big dramatic winds like that; Madoka's timeline 2 Witch out is the standard for most cases in expanded media as well. Considering Octavia was born not even two feet away from a Puella Magi, one that Sayaka had personal stuff with, it's probable the winds weren't a natural effect but Octavia just not wanting Kyouko anywhere the fuck near her.
 
Onmur said:
I think this is a vote update I can make without stomping on anyone's feet. :p

I don't really want to ask about the book directly, because with how... difficult the conversation with Kazusa might already be (for Mami), we should be careful to not have one of our cloud cuckolander moments.

We can just google the book's title later. It should be an easy find if it's out there.
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Okay, that's a bit reckless.

The book release date and how many weeks or months ago/ahead it is could provide us very important information to not just what the situation is, but also how long it's been that way, which is a good indicator for how much things might have deteriorated. Beyond that, The later we ask for info the more of any plan we have to rewrite. Putting off intel gathering until after planning is done is just asking for trouble.

Plus on further thought there are also other things to look up, it's not just the book we're looking for either: We can also look into news about a spate of teenage girl disappearances (meguca basically) in Asunaro over the last few months. Disappearances that, if we find them, will be in part caused by the Pleiades Saints. Which means we'll have to be ready to talk them out of it and undo the harm they've done.

It wouldn't surprise me if their reason for doing it is result of them trying to protect Kazusa from the madness she falls into when fighting witches by... pre-empting her encountering them as much as possible. (That's guesswork by the by, but it does sort of fit the facts.) Which means that the later it is in the timeline the more desperate to protect Kazusa the Saints will be and the more actively they'll be getting involved in those bad behaviors.

Absolute worst case scenario comes with us seeing how Mami reacts to Kyuko simply refusing to hunt familiars and if you read the Different Story into her actions in Episode 9, that may be why she could bring herself to shoot Kyoko so quickly. Apply that same mindset to the Pleiades Saints actively hunting people and you have a mess in the making.

Of course it could not be that bad! Kazusa is actively Mami's student in this timeline so it's quite possible to imagine that some of that sense justice rubbed off on Kazusa and from her onto the Pleiades Saints. But it's really worth being prepared here, socially as well as combat-wise. If we have to beat some sense into her student's disciples, I want to be ready for the possibility and I want her to be ready too.

And I'd much rather do that now instead of waiting to look things up and then watching as we google the The Sky of Seven Stars and Umika Misake's works and we learn the book came out six months ago, and there's a rash of teenage girls disappearing in the Asunaro news articles. Because, that's a lot of catching up to do. And there's a whole talk of "Okay I thought things were fine but it turns out they're really really not." that we'd likely have to have with Mami.

Asunaro is a hot mess, and this is no time to go in fat and happy without thoroughly asking questions. Especially not when we have the answers with us in the room.

If your worry is us slipping our poker face during the conversation with Kazusa you just place it like this:

[X] Quietly encourage and reassure Mami.
-[X] Avoid negative conversational turns. Help Mami think positive.
-[X] Cover for Mami if necessary.
-[X] Extra attention to her Gem.
-[X] Let them chat as long as they need.
[X] When appropriate:
-[X] Introduce everyone.
-[X] Explain about your helping meguca thing. And your friends making thing.
-[X] Arrange for the Asunaro visit. Time and place. Let her know how fast you travel, specially in emergencies.
-[X] Let Kazusa know it might be more than just Mami and Sabrina visiting.
-[X] Say goodbye to Kazusa.
[X] Ask Kirika to look up Umika's book release date and Asunaro teenage girl (meguca) disappearances.
[X] Bring back the Privacy Device.
[X] Discuss who's going to Asunaro, paying special attention to Mami's wishes.
-[X] Explain Hijiri's memory/mind magics: You'd like to have Kirika (and Oriko) along to counter them.
-[X] If not, at least some Anti-Magic Enchantments?

Thus we're asking after the conversation is over and we don't let things slip.

Hell, if you really wanted, you can ask Homura to timestop us, tell her the situation, the results and to take it to Oriko, then have the two look it up together and not tell us the results until the conversation with Kazusa is done. They have decent poker faces and if needed we can arrange for the two to say could arrange for the two to step in and make their own insistence on trip planning if they need to. (Use your own judgement there, but one imagines they might stomp on the brakes pretty damn hard.)
 
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Always Happening said:
Not changing my vote, but a couple questions:
-Can the vote be compressed at all? I agree with Muramasa that it's a little on the big side, and things like "don't discuss mission-sensitive information outside of a privacy field" should be implicit to the Brinapilot.
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It's a long vote; it's also inside the 150 word limit (I think? Might be 151 lol depends on how counter treats [><]).

I don't think it's that bad, firn asked for a long vote this time and... I dunno, it's long yes but I don't think it's that bad just a lot of lines.
 
Kaizuki said:
I don't think it's that bad just a lot of lines.
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[Q] ________________________________
[Q] _______________________________
[Q] ___________________________________
[Q] Hug Oriko
[Q] _______________________________
[Q] ____________________________________________
[Q] ______________________________________
[Q] Hugging Mami is an automatic action
[Q] ________________________________
[Q] Ask Kazusa about hugs
[Q] ______________________________________
[Q] ________________________________________
[Q] Get a Witch hat
[Q] ___________________________________
 
The Phoenixian said:
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Woah woah woah hold up. First, I think you might be confusing Kazusa and Kazumi; the meguca pogroms (basically everything, really) don't start until the Pleiades get witchbombed by Kazusa dying. She might be an early-generation clone that hasn't gone berserk yet, but we're currently operating on the assumption that she's still alive.

Secondly, the Asunaro timeline being different from canon is a Big Thing; since it would takes months for the Saints to purge the city and iterate 12 clones, the implications here seem to be not that we're past the tipping point of shit getting fucked, but that the Soujus pass through much earlier than they normally would.
 
The Phoenixian said:
Okay, that's a bit reckless.
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Googling too many specific things is also reckless. There's a reason we talk about this stuff in an anti-surveillance field. We can see if a book release comes up in conversation while Kazusa is talking about her friends, and if it does act accordingly. The fact that Kazusa is connected to Kyuubey's telepathy network means shit almost certainly isn't going down yet, though.
 
Always Happening said:
Woah woah woah hold up. First, I think you might be confusing Kazusa and Kazumi; the meguca pogroms (basically everything, really) don't start until the Pleiades get witchbombed by Kazusa dying. She might be an early-generation clone that hasn't gone berserk yet, but we're currently operating on the assumption that she's still alive.

Secondly, the Asunaro timeline being different from canon is a Big Thing; since it would takes months for the Saints to purge the city and iterate 12 clones, the implications here seem to be not that we're past the tipping point of shit getting fucked, but that the Soujus pass through much earlier than they normally would.
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I'm deliberately delineating Kazusa from Kazimu by the presence of her old memories.

And... yeah. That post... got very out of hand. (I've been up too long, am getting loopy, and my writing and interpersonal skills are going fast.) But here's what I'm saying at the heart of it: Check.

That's it: We have information we can check, and we can do it in time that we can have it as part of the strategy discussion. I don't want to waste that opportunity.

(Even so, I'm sorry Onmur if that post came off as an attack or something. I really have no idea how it reads, but I suspect it isn't good.)


Before I retire: On the subject of length I do think I have something of value I can offer, as I think there's a way to both condense and expand the strategy part of this vote at the same time:

-[] Discuss what powers Hijiri should have access to if she can only copy the Saints, along with possible counters
 
The Phoenixian said:
(Even so, I'm sorry Onmur if that post came off as an attack or something. I really have no idea how it reads, but I suspect it isn't good.)
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I'm not offended. Just been mulling over your posts but I'm not convinced, and nobody else seems to be supporting changing the vote right now.

I'm not sure how much of it is that people disagree with needing to change the vote, and how much it's just people not wanting to modify votes after a bandwagon has settled for so long... or people straight up not following thread discussion until next update.

It feels easy for me to want the bandwagon to go with no more changes, and check up the things you're talking about after next update, but I know I might feel different if it was me trying to oppose a bandwagon.
 
The Narrator said:
Huh. Yeah, I just went back to look at Episode 10, and Madoka's witchout at the end of Loop 2 is totally weird. Her Soul Gem just kind of changes into a Grief Seed in her hand between shots, rather than dramatically shattering out of the Gem like Sayaka's did. Then she holds up the Seed (somehow still controlling her human body! WTF!) and it dents inward like there's a vacuum inside and black smoke starts leaking out to become her witchform.

I guess that even by that point, Madoka's potentially was so high that all the usual rules went out the window. :jackiechan:
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It's my belief that the difference has to do with the girls, not their potential.

Sayaka gives in to her sadness and curses the world when she declares herself a fool. Remember, moments before, she had either murdered or nearly murdered (depending on whether we're going by the manga or anime) two humans out of sheer hatred and grief. Then, rather than asking Kyouko for a Grief Seed, she just...talks to her, before Witching Out. That Sayaka had already become a Witch in all but form: A Magical Girl that has abandoned Hope and begun Cursing the world. She smiles brokenly just before Witching, and her Grief Seed opens up to release Octavia.

When she finally Witched Out, she did so willingly. She chose to forsake the world.

Madoka, on the other hand, lies on the ground screaming in pain, snarling and struggling. She doesn't cleanse because she is unable to, not because she no longer cares. She holds her Grief Seed up, and it refuses to open. Instead, it sits there in her palm...and Kriemheld Gretchen rips her way out. Her last sound is not a word, or even a sob, but a shriek of unimaginable pain as this happens.

Madoka did not give in to her Grief. She did not choose to forsake the world. She Witched Out when she physically could not hold on to Hope any longer, and her Grief literally overwhelmed her. She refused to Curse the world with every single fiber of her being...but still her Grief broke free.

It's one of the reasons I admire Madoka so much: She held on when no one else did, fighting without hesitation, never surrendering...only being overcome. As someone who's faced his share of despair...that's absolutely amazing. It's a miraculous kind of resolve.
 
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Huh...interesting. I went back to review the transcript of Episode 10. Timeline 3 Madoka never tells Homura to stop her from becoming a Magical Girl.

Episode 10 said:
Madoka;
It's better this way.
I want you to do something that I couldn't do.
You can go back in time, right, Homura?
You can go back and change everything... so that we don't end up like this...

Homura:
Okay...?

Madoka:
Then save me from being stupid, from getting tricked.
Don't let Kyubey fool me again.
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She asks Homura to stop Kyubey from tricking her. To keep her from being stupid.

Episode 12 is the result of that. Homura kept Madoka from Wishing until she fully understood what she was doing. She was not tricked, she didn't jump in blind.

Homura thought Madoka wanted her to keep Madoka from becoming a Magus, but...that doesn't make sense for Madoka. She wasn't truly happy until she Wished.

Wanting to know what she was doing, though? To have a chance to do it right? That makes perfect sense for Madoka.
 
But this time, she wished for everything to be fixed, and we came about.

We can fix that need to wish. By forging Batdoka from the frail form of the original, a young girls pure desire for the one truth of the universe: swole!
 
Karnewarrior said:
But this time, she wished for everything to be fixed, and we came about.

We can fix that need to wish. By forging Batdoka from the frail form of the original, a young girls pure desire for the one truth of the universe: swole!
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No, we can't, because it isn't broken. Paging @AuraTwilight , but the parts of Madoka that Homura admires so much are the same as the parts that won't let Madoka rest until she's done all she can to help the world... including wishing.

Madoka making that demand of Homura is her ultimate sin, and getting Homura to accept Madoka making a wish is the only way the two of them can ever know peace.
 
Higure said:
Huh...interesting. I went back to review the transcript of Episode 10. Timeline 3 Madoka never tells Homura to stop her from becoming a Magical Girl.


She asks Homura to stop Kyubey from tricking her. To keep her from being stupid.

Episode 12 is the result of that. Homura kept Madoka from Wishing until she fully understood what she was doing. She was not tricked, she didn't jump in blind.

Homura thought Madoka wanted her to keep Madoka from becoming a Magus, but...that doesn't make sense for Madoka. She wasn't truly happy until she Wished.

Wanting to know what she was doing, though? To have a chance to do it right? That makes perfect sense for Madoka.
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This is honestly worth sharing with Homura. Not to persuade her to let Madoka contract, but so as not to curse herself if it happens. To aim not for a world where Madoka doesn't contract, but one where she's safe from it.

And yea, Redshirt's got about the right of it. Madoka needs to be useful in some capacity. I'm not sure being the team cheerleader and therapist is sufficient, but she needs to see an active positive result from her efforts one way or another. I don't think contracting is the only way, but I would like to atleast defuse that possibility from making Homura become a Nutcracker.
 
landcollector said:
From a certain point of view (like Homura's), the very act of Madoka making a Wish could be considered "stupid".
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Yeah, that's true. What matters here, though, is what Madoka thought. Homura'd prioritize Madoka's intent over her own perception, I think.

While becoming a meguca certainly is walking with death in most situations, I don't see any Servants around...:eyebrow:
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Ihihi! Yeah, but there are plenty of Reality Marbles.

AuraTwilight said:
This is honestly worth sharing with Homura. Not to persuade her to let Madoka contract, but so as not to curse herself if it happens. To aim not for a world where Madoka doesn't contract, but one where she's safe from it.

And yea, Redshirt's got about the right of it. Madoka needs to be useful in some capacity. I'm not sure being the team cheerleader and therapist is sufficient, but she needs to see an active positive result from her efforts one way or another. I don't think contracting is the only way, but I would like to atleast defuse that possibility from making Homura become a Nutcracker.
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Definitely. I mean, even if everything went wrong...even if the only thing left of us was Homura's memory, giving her an insight that might convince her to reconsider her secondary objective might make the difference we need most. I don't want to know how many timelines she abandoned because Madoka Wished at the last second, even if she survived. Not to mention that having Madoka as an active player in the story generally helps improve the outcome...I don't think we've seen a timeline where Walpurgisnacht was defeated without Madoka becoming a Magical Girl at some point.
 
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