The thing is, Kyouko doesn't know that we know. This is something that we only know because of metaknowledge, because Kyouko never told us about it. In fact, she flat out lied about the circumstances of her split with Mami (or has completely internalized a false recollection of it). So to get her permission to share it, we would have to first explain how we knew what was happening inside her mind a year ago, thoughts that she might not even still remember clearly herself. How exactly do we have that conversation without getting stabbed in the face?

Figure it out. After all, if we can't get Kyouko to tell Mami her true feelings on that night, then hoping the two of them will reconcile is pointless anyway. Having Kyouko open up is a precondition for social success here anyway, so doing an unethical end-run around her is pointless.

If they're not okay with us coming tomorrow, then I suspect that it will be because they want us to come sooner rather than later, because the situation is too desperate to wait another day.

If the situation is that critical, then I expect my standing vote to have Firn dump us into voting immediately when appropriate trigger.
 
doing an unethical end-run around her is pointless.

Mami not being sad isn't a point? *raises eyebrows*

If it's as clear cut as you say, then convince Kyouko of it first. "Pushing Mami away is hurting her." I will not share it without Kyouko's consent until the stakes are much higher than they are now. It's not our secret to share, and spreading it anyway is a troubling precedent.

Witchbomb, metabomb, shove it in her face. Kyouko's kneejerk reaction to threats to Mami, as we have demonstratively seen, is protective. As long as she thinks Mami is safe and generally OK she'll stay the way she is. All you have to do to start changing that is break any conception of the Puella Magi system being a safe one.

Hell, more than that, the Tetris loop, which like as not was based on Homura coming back in time and saying "I'm a time traveller, we need to band together or we all die."

The idea that you can't consent to this is based on you not trying. It is absolutely as clear cut as I'm saying and if you want me to put together a how-to for convincing Kyouko inside of two hours I will do it.

You won't like it and you won't vote for it
, because it will say "ask Kyouko at length why she continues to hold Mami away from her and potentially engage in nonlethal combat with Kyouko to achieve that conversation. And make her really mad while you're at it. She'll calm down later."

Kyouko isn't comfortable with the topic and people don't push her. All you really have to do is push her in the right way. All the evidence is right there waiting to be used -- a quick search of the story-only thread yields three pages of posts using the search terms "Mami Kyouko" and reading through all of the relevant ones produces solid results. Kyouko cares about her. A lot. Enough that I'm solidly convinced that the whole "Mami chased me out" thing was Kyouko trying to convince us to not make efforts to reconcile the two of them by making herself look like a bitch.
 
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Wear grief full-plate?

Kyouko had just finished her last stick of pocky when she heard the heavy thump of her guest landing on the rooftop behind her.

"Yo. You're late, Sab-" She got out, before being stunned into silence. "Sabrina, why are you wearing full plate armor?"

The armored figure, cloaked in fractal patterns of pure evil, raised a hand. "Because this is a serious talk, and I don't want to be stabbed."

Kyouko mulled that over a bit, then summoned a spear and with cobra-like quickness, jammed it into the chestplate of the armor. The spearhead connected with a dull thud, and failed to penetrate, but the force of the impact was such that Sabrina slowly tipped over, as if in a cartoon, flailing her hands wildly in an attempt to keep her balance. With a depressive crunch, though, Sabrina's back hit the floor with finality.

"Aw, man..." came Sabrina's voice, through the armor. "Can you help me up? I can't move very well in this..."

Kyouko shut her eyes and took a deep breath. Can't fix stupid, She had to remind herself.

By the way, yes, I know plate armor wasn't really that heavy. It's just Sabrina being Sabrina.
 
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Kyouko had just finished her last stick of pocky when she heard the heavy thump of her guest landing on the rooftop behind her.

"Yo. You're late, Sab-" She got out, before being stunned into silence. "Sabrina, why are you wearing full plate armor?"

The armored figure, cloaked in fractal patterns of pure evil, raised a hand. "Because this is a serious talk, and I don't want to be stabbed."

Kyouko mulled that over a bit, then summoned a spear and with cobra-like quickness, jammed it into the chestplate of the armor. The spearhead connected with a dull thud, and failed to penetrate, but the force of the impact was such that Sabrina slowly tipped over, as if in a cartoon, flailing her hands wildly in an attempt to keep her balance. With a depressive crunch, though, Sabrina's back hit the floor with finality.

"Aw, man..." came Sabrina's voice, through the armor. "Can you help me up? I can't move very well in this..."

Kyouko shut her eyes and took a deep breath. Can't fix stupid, She had to remind herself.

"Me and Sayaka can do it better," Kyouko said dryly.

"Y-yeah, but you work together to make your armor! Combination moves are just a cheap tactic to make weak meguca stronger!"
 
Hell, more than that, the Tetris loop, which like as not was based on Homura coming back in time and saying "I'm a time traveller, we need to band together or we all die."
Non sequitur: it does not follow from. The only things we know about Kyouko in Loop 3 is that she had apparently shown up and started shit despite Mami still being alive, but started working with the others by the time Sayaka witched out. We don't know what prompted that shift, but from her confusion in that scene she had clearly not been witchbombed prior to that. In the post-Madokami timeline we also see a Kyouko and Mami who have reconciled, without any indication of how that occurred.

Honestly, I don't agree with either of you on this one. I'm not sure that telling Mami is all that helpful to begin with. I think what will really help heal the rift between them is for Kyouko to be humanized by caring for Yuma and being helped by Sabrina and for Mami to see that side of Kyouko is returning. And if we do tell Mami then it had never get back to Kyouko, because she would be pissed. But arguing that we have moral imperative to withhold the information feels like a stretch, because it's not information that was given to us in confidence. It's metaknowledge, and we've shared metaknowledge about people before when we thought it was necessary.


"Aw, man..." came Sabrina's voice, through the armor. "Can you help me up? I can't move very well in this..."
She's clearly just fishing for sympathy now. We all know she could just will the armor pick itself up. :p
 
Ah, yes, so good to know you can tell me my voting behaviour before it even happens. :|

Seriously, don't do this, it's super rude.

You're right and I apologize. It was wholly uncalled for. I respect you deeply and that was... very much something I regret saying.

Honestly, I don't agree with either of you on this one. I'm not sure that telling Mami is all that helpful to begin with. I think what will really help heal the rift between them is for Kyouko to be humanized by caring for Yuma and being helped by Sabrina and for Mami to see that side of Kyouko is returning. And if we do tell Mami then it had never get back to Kyouko, because she would be pissed. But arguing that we have moral imperative to withhold the information feels like a stretch, because it's not information that was given to us in confidence. It's metaknowledge, and we've shared metaknowledge about people before when we thought it was necessary.

Honestly there's no reason we couldn't get it out of her. We would just have to be willing to play hardball for it.

Step One: Make a fancy lightbulb that we can flash red, yellow, or green.

Step Two: Confront Kyouko and ask to speak in private.

Step Three: Throw the truth in her face. "You pushed her away on purpose, for her own good. Didn't you." Pretend to have figured this out based on information from her and Mami.

Step Four: Flash lightbulb after response. Red if she's lying, yellow if it's a partial truth, green if it's true.

Step Five: Claim lightbulb is a lie detector.

Step Six: Continue to throw truth in her face.

Step Seven: Kyouko admits the truth.

Step Eight: Proceed to make Kyouko understand that she's being an idiot.

Step Nine: Admit to Kyouko that lightbulb is just a glorified lightbulb. Savor indignation.
 
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Honestly there's no reason we couldn't get it out of her. We would just have to be willing to play hardball for it.

Step One: Make a fancy lightbulb that we can flash red, yellow, or green.

Step Two: Confront Kyouko and ask to speak in private.

Step Three: Throw the truth in her face. "You pushed her away on purpose, for her own good. Didn't you." Pretend to have figured this out based on information from her and Mami.

Step Four: Flash lightbulb after response. Red if she's lying, yellow if it's a partial truth, green if it's true.

Step Five: Claim lightbulb is a lie detector.

Step Six: Continue to throw truth in her face.

Step Seven: Kyouko admits the truth.

Step Eight: Proceed to make Kyouko understand that she's being an idiot.

Step Nine: Admit to Kyouko that lightbulb is just a glorified lightbulb. Savor indignation.

Ah, deeply stupid sitcom plans, my nemesis. We meet again.

no but seriously that's a terrible idea
 

Okay. First of all, do not lie to Kyouko. At all. It's one of her triggers.

Second of all, the whole "truth detector" act is both pointless and will piss her the hell off in an unproductive way.

Just confronting her with our beliefs of what happened during a spar without the gimmicks, would be a vastly better (though by no means optimal) approach.
 
K this is basically what I was gunning for. Not gonna lie was hoping for a funny or two with the sitcom crap, but seriously.

Why don't we just throw it in her face and push?

Because we wanted to secure her co-operation in training Sayaka first, and pissing her off beforehand would have been counterproductive?

I'm fine with moving ahead on this at some point, but would like Sayaka and Kyouko to get acquainted to some degree before then.

Not gonna lie was hoping for a funny or two with the sitcom crap, but seriously.

The earlier serious push for the ass-backwards "blind date" approach to introducing Sayaka to Oriko has left me all out of patience with that kind of nonsense, unfortunately.
 
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Because we wanted to secure her co-operation in training Sayaka first, and pissing her off beforehand would have been counterproductive?

I'm fine with moving ahead on this at some point, but would like Sayaka and Kyouko to get acquainted to some degree before then.

Makes sense to me.

I'd like to give Mami some kind of padding, which is where this
[X] Talk to Mami. Regarding Kyouko and her, you have a not-exactly-a-plan. The details are a little much for the moment, maybe? But... Happy ending?
-[X] Anyway, right now -- Kyouko training Sayaka, details thereof, permission.

came from. Is that something you care about either way?

If we do something like that we can wait on dealing with Kyouko-Mami for at least several days. Just... I'm not comfortable with "let's talk about Kyouko training Sayaka and Kyouko coming to Mitakihara and leave Mami thinking we don't have any kind of plan for things to get better on that front."
 
Hmm. Thoughts on a possible vote addition?

[ ] Discuss Sayaka's training with Kyouko.
-[ ] Touch on Kyouko coming to Mitakihara. Don't push.
--[ ] You were hoping that Mami would agree to speak with Kyouko when she feels ready. Kyouko still cares, she just hides it, because caring hurt her.

I remain very open to suggestions.
 
Watcher again, having another theory he would like opinions on.

This is just some sleepy rambling based upon what I thiiink Aura said once before, how Sayaka managed to cleanse her Soul Gem in the PSP game by being very happy, how those mechanics may be canon to this quest and how witch cores in Clear Seed are "quiescent", Meguca are "Novas of magic" and how witches are "abysses of grief".

I theorize that dewitching (without precluding a future witchout again) would merely include getting the Clear Seed to hope again, caused by stimulating it with magic, seeing as Sayaka felt so happy due to outside stimuli and how it must be the force known as magic that lets her Soul in the Soul Gem perceive such, making it very possible that we can bring them back by pouring magic in such a way into the Soul Gem, that the Soul once again starts believing in a chance for a better future, almost literally pulling her out of the abyss of despair.

Most likely by filling it with positive emotions specifically, causing a pretty much "Anti-Witchout" to occur, seeing how Witchouts are Souls drowning in despair, facilitated by the Soul Gem, bringing them back from that may be just as simple as removing the sea of suffering surrounding their Souls and then simply replacing it with a sea of joy, love, etc.

Most likely without literally hatching it of course, just filling it up to the point before then.

And if that would work, it would lead to so many social challenges that I do not think this to be "too easy" narratively, especially seeing the potential with any Seeds Homura may have from prior loops.

Sorry for not fitting the current topic, felt this important enough to share and did not want to risk forgetting it by tomorrow/ whenever it would have fit a current topic.

Am kinda happy and hopeful about this.
 
Watcher again, having another theory he would like opinions on.

This is just some sleepy rambling based upon what I thiiink Aura said once before, how Sayaka managed to cleanse her Soul Gem in the PSP game by being very happy, how those mechanics may be canon to this quest and how witch cores in Clear Seed are "quiescent", Meguca are "Novas of magic" and how witches are "abysses of grief".

I theorize that dewitching (without precluding a future witchout again) would merely include getting the Clear Seed to hope again, caused by stimulating it with magic, seeing as Sayaka felt so happy due to outside stimuli and how it must be the force known as magic that lets her Soul in the Soul Gem perceive such, making it very possible that we can bring them back by pouring magic in such a way into the Soul Gem, that the Soul once again starts believing in a chance for a better future, almost literally pulling her out of the abyss of despair.

Most likely by filling it with positive emotions specifically, causing a pretty much "Anti-Witchout" to occur, seeing how Witchouts are Souls drowning in despair, facilitated by the Soul Gem, bringing them back from that may be just as simple as removing the sea of suffering surrounding their Souls and then simply replacing it with a sea of joy, love, etc.

Most likely without literally hatching it of course, just filling it up to the point before then.

And if that would work, it would lead to so many social challenges that I do not think this to be "too easy" narratively, especially seeing the potential with any Seeds Homura may have from prior loops.

Sorry for not fitting the current topic, felt this important enough to share and did not want to risk forgetting it by tomorrow/ whenever it would have fit a current topic.

Am kinda happy and hopeful about this.
Filling Grief Seeds with magic (theorized to be Hope) is something that's came quite a few times.
 
Watcher again, having another theory he would like opinions on.

This is just some sleepy rambling based upon what I thiiink Aura said once before, how Sayaka managed to cleanse her Soul Gem in the PSP game by being very happy, how those mechanics may be canon to this quest and how witch cores in Clear Seed are "quiescent", Meguca are "Novas of magic" and how witches are "abysses of grief".

I theorize that dewitching (without precluding a future witchout again) would merely include getting the Clear Seed to hope again, caused by stimulating it with magic, seeing as Sayaka felt so happy due to outside stimuli and how it must be the force known as magic that lets her Soul in the Soul Gem perceive such, making it very possible that we can bring them back by pouring magic in such a way into the Soul Gem, that the Soul once again starts believing in a chance for a better future, almost literally pulling her out of the abyss of despair.

Most likely by filling it with positive emotions specifically, causing a pretty much "Anti-Witchout" to occur, seeing how Witchouts are Souls drowning in despair, facilitated by the Soul Gem, bringing them back from that may be just as simple as removing the sea of suffering surrounding their Souls and then simply replacing it with a sea of joy, love, etc.

Most likely without literally hatching it of course, just filling it up to the point before then.

And if that would work, it would lead to so many social challenges that I do not think this to be "too easy" narratively, especially seeing the potential with any Seeds Homura may have from prior loops.

Sorry for not fitting the current topic, felt this important enough to share and did not want to risk forgetting it by tomorrow/ whenever it would have fit a current topic.

Am kinda happy and hopeful about this.

We already tried just pushing magic into a grief seed, as well as the core of a hatched witch. In the first case it did nothing, "sliding off", in the second it nearly caused us to witch out from the backlash.
 
Filling Grief Seeds with magic (theorized to be Hope) is something that's came quite a few times.
... Sorry.
I hope at least some of the reasoning is new?

We already tried just pushing magic into a grief seed, as well as the core of a hatched witch. In the first case it did nothing, "sliding off", in the second it nearly caused
us
to witch out from the backlash.

Wasn't that more telepathy on an active witch core? One still capable of having its barrier up?

And I try to communicate it as less just unfocused magic, as for example Magic attacks are still magic but I would not expect them to enter a Soul Gem without shattering it, as compared of the feedback system the soul has to control a body and use its senses which does enter and leave the Soul Gem without issues, and more a focused "intent" that can baypass it.

Furthermore Barriers are Grief and Magic, proving that magic can still spring from the core, which may imply a good chance that there actually is a way to use the path it takes in the opposite direction for the desired approach.
 
I'm expecting that Soulguca will be required to properly channel hope into a soul gem, or at least to tell us what we're doing wrong. Certainly performing these experiments alongside her should be more productive.
 
What if there was a meguca out there with the power of 'opposites', or something, that could transform our Grief into Hope. Could that be a thing?

Wasn't that more telepathy on an active witch core? One still capable of having its barrier up?
We poked Hildegarde's 'Core' with our Grief powers, I think.

It's been a while.
 
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