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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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SpeckofStardust said:
Examples please?
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Tomoe Mami healing Kyubey, episode 1 or 2, I forget. Kyoko's barrier magic - side materials established her initial magic was an illusory doppelganger power. Rebellion has Homura manipulate technology - granted Rebellion falls under "unusual circumstances" but similar abilities were displayed in the Walpurgis Night battle, so it probably is something she can do. If I remember correctly, she also fired magic bullets at Kyubey near the end of episode 10.
 
universalperson said:
Tomoe Mami healing Kyubey, episode 1 or 2, I forget. Kyoko's barrier magic - side materials established her initial magic was an illusory doppelganger power. Rebellion has Homura manipulate technology - granted Rebellion falls under "unusual circumstances" but similar abilities were displayed in the Walpurgis Night battle, so it probably is something she can do. If I remember correctly, she also fired magic bullets at Kyubey near the end of episode 10.
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1.You most prove that she did not always have that ability.
2.Kyoko's barriers are made out of a more skilled application of her spear magic.
3.For Homura you need prove she did not already had the ability to do so from the start.
 
Vebyast said:


Except I don't know if kyubeys splatter properly.
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Woah! Where'd ya get that?
SpeckofStardust said:
1.You most prove that she did not always have that ability.
2.Kyoko's barriers are made out of a more skilled application of her spear magic.
3.For Homura you need prove she did not already had the ability to do so from the start.
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Dude... You - Higure's down in the viewing thing. You'll probably wanna stop before something happens.
sorry.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
No, it's not because the laws of reality are generally the same level or higher then non-conceptual entities.
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Okay, look, Speck, the whole point I've been trying to make on that subject is that magic is a force that lets you ignore the laws of physics, until you run out of mana or whatever. Witches are able to ignore the laws of physics by hiding in their own realities, but largely they're otherwise like Puella Magi. The universe fights against their magic, to the point that when they die, their magical effects vanish. Mami's ribbons melt if her Soul Gem breaks, etc.

Walpurgis, and witches like her, seem to be able to ignore physics enough to not need the barrier. Gretchen even more so. Beings like Madokami are so godlike they basically trump the universe.

1. Nope, the wish grants the capabilities of being a Magical girl, weather it's a price or not does not change the fact that the girls are granted to abilities the are on the same level as laws.
2. Why on earth does it matter how Homura became a God? has literally no meaning to the argument at hand science the point is omnipotent beings are not allowed at all.
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That there's a price means it's 'reality-warping', as we know from Wraith Arc that the cost-balance mechanic of magic is the universe actively resisting changes being made to it. The magic of a Puella Magi isn't an "already paid for" reality-warp. Each one is a new effect, with a new price, and is thus a new distortion in the world. That's why they vanish if you kill the Meguca creating them.

Homura's method of ascension was relevant because it was a case of a Puella Magi reality-warping that can't be drawn back to their original wish. You're also trying to extend my statement about "not allowing deities" past the parameters is originally defined for that statement, which is dishonest and a fallacy known as goalpost shifting. This is why people get short and impatient with you.

If I am wrong, then why do multiple people need to work together to prove it, and generally I escalate after the other do first.
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It's not so much multiple people need to work together to prove it so much as you're just refusing to accept arguments. And honestly I haven't really needed anyone's assistance in this discussion, though I do appreciate everyone's commentary.

universalperson said:
Tomoe Mami healing Kyubey, episode 1 or 2, I forget. Kyoko's barrier magic - side materials established her initial magic was an illusory doppelganger power. Rebellion has Homura manipulate technology - granted Rebellion falls under "unusual circumstances" but similar abilities were displayed in the Walpurgis Night battle, so it probably is something she can do. If I remember correctly, she also fired magic bullets at Kyubey near the end of episode 10.
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Mami canonically reaches a lot of her magical techniques to her students, to the point that Madoka has been seen producing pink ribbons to do a Tiro Duet move with her. There's also official stats for the five girls, with one column being "Initial magic" and another being "Acquired/learned magic", so this point absolutely cannot be argued on any level. It's canon.

Speckofstardust said:
1.You most prove that she did not always have that ability.
2.Kyoko's barriers are made out of a more skilled application of her spear magic.
3.For Homura you need prove she did not already had the ability to do so from the start.
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I can actually do so. According to Mami's route in the PSP game, Mami's only power initially was ribbons. She had to develop everything else through enchantment. Kyouko specifically learned how to make chains and barriers by studying under Mami.

Additionally, the entire field of Enchantment basically represents Puella Magi learning to do stuff outside their original powersets, which has come up in this very quest, so I'm not sure why you're even arguing this point.

This is approaching Spaghetti-posting, so I'm probably going to cool it with my next response, sorry.
 
universalperson said:
Side materials indicate that Mami's magic is ribbons. I somehow doubt healing is applied ribbons.

Also: Kyoko using her Soul Gem to preserve Sayaka's body.
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universalperson said:
You must prove this.
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AuraTwilight said:
I can actually do so. According to Mami's route in the PSP game, Mami's only power initially was ribbons. She had to develop everything else through enchantment. Kyouko specifically learned how to make chains and barriers by studying under Mami.

Additionally, the entire field of Enchantment basically represents Puella Magi learning to do stuff outside their original powersets, which has come up in this very quest, so I'm not sure why you're even arguing this point.

This is approaching Spaghetti-posting, so I'm probably going to cool it with my next response, sorry.
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Thing is enchantment is a base starting power, and advance healing is a starting power as seen by the fact that
A. Magical girls are the gem not the body,
B.They use magic to control their body,
C. They use their magic to enhance their body.
As out right stated in the anime in episodes 6-7 by kuybey.
So no.
AuraTwilight said:
That there's a price means it's 'reality-warping', as we know from Wraith Arc that the cost-balance mechanic of magic is the universe actively resisting changes being made to it. The magic of a Puella Magi isn't an "already paid for" reality-warp. Each one is a new effect, with a new price, and is thus a new distortion in the world. That's why they vanish if you kill the Meguca creating them.
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Paying the price would once again prove that the magical girl is exerting a set law on reality that is powered via their own soul.
AuraTwilight said:
Mami canonically reaches a lot of her magical techniques to her students, to the point that Madoka has been seen producing pink ribbons to do a Tiro Duet move with her. There's also official stats for the five girls, with one column being "Initial magic" and another being "Acquired/learned magic", so this point absolutely cannot be argued on any level. It's canon.
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All magical girls can summon/make a weapon or other physical device, changing what they summon/make is once again nothing more then them becoming more skilled in said area of starting magic.
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Ah dam it, going by how the argument has been going If every wish gives birth to a 'law' of reality, then that means every time a MG is killed you break a law....
That being said I don't think we killed any MG's.
Then again witches have been defeated....
But not killed...
So basically laws have been suppressed.....
Nope that is close enough to count for breaking.
AuraTwilight said:
Homura's method of ascension was relevant because it was a case of a Puella Magi reality-warping that can't be drawn back to their original wish. You're also trying to extend my statement about "not allowing deities" past the parameters is originally defined for that statement, which is dishonest and a fallacy known as goalpost shifting.
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You goalpost shifted first by adding in the "not allowing deities" for deities are not in the originally defined argument that the statement was a part of.
AuraTwilight said:
Kriemhild Gretchen of timeline 4, however, will actually succeed, and is pretty much unopposable at a philosophical level because she'll exist as long as anyone else suffers.
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Which is the statement I called BS on in the first place.
 
AuraTwilight said:
I would instead argue that Octavia and Charlotte are just not magically powerful enough to ignore physics to that level, rather than anything about their mental state or beliefs. Potential is still a thing.
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A fair argument, although I'd expect changing one law of physics within your barrier to be no harder than changing another, and Witch Barriers are crazy enough that physics is clearly their bitch.

I'd expect Potential to instead be reflected in the external scale of their Barrier and the amount of influence the Witch has on the world beyond said Barrier (reflecting their capacity for defying Gaia). That, and their ability to resist the Magic of others.
 
Higure said:
A fair argument, although I'd expect changing one law of physics within your barrier to be no harder than changing another, and Witch Barriers are crazy enough that physics is clearly their bitch.
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At least some component of it is related to how difficult to believe it is that a certain violation will occur. For example, Witches have no trouble manufacturing the physical objects (or at least simulations thereof) inside their barrier - it's one of the basic abilities - but have trouble defending from handheld explosive devices. Energy difference there is... 10, 15 OOM?
 
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Vebyast said:
At least some component of it is related to how difficult to believe it is that a certain violation will occur. For example, Witches have no trouble manufacturing the physical objects (or at least simulations thereof) inside their barrier - it's one of the basic abilities - but have trouble defending from handheld explosive devices. Energy difference there is... 10, 15 OOM?
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And then you have the TV witch. Who knows what the fuck it was actually doing to Madoka but if physics was involved at any point that shit wouldn't have been free.
 
Higure said:
A fair argument, although I'd expect changing one law of physics within your barrier to be no harder than changing another, and Witch Barriers are crazy enough that physics is clearly their bitch.

I'd expect Potential to instead be reflected in the external scale of their Barrier and the amount of influence the Witch has on the world beyond said Barrier (reflecting their capacity for defying Gaia). That, and their ability to resist the Magic of others.
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Here's the thing, for me. The barriers don't seem to entirely dissociate from reality; they still follow the same time axis, they seem to follow physics unless otherwise specified, etc.

Add that there seems to be an a dimensional axis between "reality" and "the witch's mindscape." With Charlotte's barrier, for instance, the earlier portion has a strong hospital aesthetic, including exit signs, and these elements are fully overtaken by the candyland shit before you reach the innermost chamber. Likewise, there's signs of an office building in Gertrude's barrier that eventually phases out.

It's likely that the deeper you go, the less reality applies. This would imply that the limiting factor of a witch's reality-fuckery is their strength rather than their mindset.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Add that there seems to be an a dimensional axis between "reality" and "the witch's mindscape." With Charlotte's barrier, for instance, the earlier portion has a strong hospital aesthetic, including exit signs, and these elements are fully overtaken by the candyland shit before you reach the innermost chamber.
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I figured that was because Nagisa's grief came primarily from a hospital, but you're proposing that it's because that's where her barrier was?
 
Torgamous said:
I figured that was because Nagisa's grief came primarily from a hospital, but you're proposing that it's because that's where her barrier was?
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As additional evidence, Oktavia's barrier in the anime starts out as mostly train tracks, transitioning into the auditorium at the center, and Oktavia attacks using train wheels.
 
...Blast. We got too caught up in vote discussion and forgot what the situation was.

Firnagzen said:
"We should go home first," Mami notes. "We... do need to change."

You look down at yourself, still dressed in one of Tomohisa's old shirts. "Yeah, true," you say. "Sayaka? When's good for you?"

"When's good for you?" Sayaka counters.

You shrug, glancing to Mami. "Maybe... in an hour?" Mami suggests. "Ah, Madoka, Homura, what about you?"
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More than a little bit of this vote should really be done after we get back together, and some of the rest needs to be edited as a result. Plus there're some courtesies to observe.

[x] Having Madoka and Homura along to meet with Bennouna sounds great, if they want to come.
[x] But the cleansing trip... maybe once peace has settled in and these trips are routine, but right now we're not quite sure what these girls are like or how it'll go.
[x] You actually wanted to ask Homura and Madoka if they could hold the fort while the rest of the team was off doing that.

[] On cleansing and instability, Tokyo. Give everyone a brief summary and ask how they think we should handle it - wait for a response, call them and try to short-circuit the process, Attempt Politics, etc.

[x] Bennouna or Enchanting is probably first, though, so... everybody meet back up in an hour?
-[x] Thank the Madoparents for having you over!
-[x] Offer Sayaka and Homura rides home.

[x] Before you leave, pull Madoka aside and thank her for the sleepover. Not only was it nice on its own, the sheer normalcy of it is important. Inviting Sayaka was a particularly good idea; Madoka's a Good Friend.
-[x] Speaking of which, ask Madoka to point the friendship cannons at Homura. It'd be good for her, and you're sure she'd appreciate it.

This block won't fit as it is any more because we don't have a good opportunity to pull Homura aside.

[] Pull Homura aside to quietly explain the keeping-Madoka-safe plan. We agree with keeping her away from danger, but she'll always want to help and she's too brave to be simply scared away, so we're giving her other - safer - ways to feel and be included.
-[] For example, you want to bring up the Tokyo situation at some point today and get everybody's input on it.

So we need to find a way to do that. Use telepathy while we're flying, since we were planning to talk about it in the clear with her anyway? If we think it's safe to talk about the Madopsyche with Mami, we could drop the telepathy?

[x] Drop Sayaka off first, then telepathy with Homura on the way to her apartment to explain the keeping-Madoka-safe plan.
-[x] You agree with keeping Madoka away from danger, but she'll always want to help and she's too brave to be simply scared away, so you're giving her other - safer - ways to feel and be included.
-[x] For example, you want to bring up the Tokyo situation at some point today and get everybody's input on it.

Also, FLUFF FOR THE FLUFF GOD. HUGS FOR THE HUGS THRONE.

[x] Fly home with Mami.
-[x] Does she want to try the ribbon-wings again? ^_^

(the hugs throne continues to be Mami.)
 
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