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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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It strikes me as somewhat odd for posters to be using the term 'strawman' correctly on SV.

Because it was experience, that even Mods were using the word to mean 'misrepresent their position' instead of 'construct a non-existant opponent', for a year or longer.
 
Matou Sutegobana said:
It strikes me as somewhat odd for posters to be using the term 'strawman' correctly on SV.

Because it was experience, that even Mods were using the word to mean 'misrepresent their position' instead of 'construct a non-existant opponent', for a year or longer.
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Strawman:
  1. an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
    "her familiar procedure of creating a straw man by exaggerating their approach"
  2. a person regarded as having no substance or integrity.
    "a photogenic straw man gets inserted into office and advisers dictate policy"
 
If we can warn Madoka that her wish will destroy the world without witchbombing her, then that's great. And we can have the conversation in timestop without Mami, if need be. But it's a conversation that we need to have.

However upsetting finding this out might be for Madoka, she'll live. She won't live if she makes a wish because she doesn't know what that truly entails.

Keeping Madoka ignorant doesn't help us. It's doing Kyubey's work for him. He preys on that very ignorance to get her to contract.

As long as Madoka is oblivious to the true consequences of her contract, Kyubey can try to force her into contracting by putting her loved ones in danger. We see him do this in the series, twice, and only last-second intervention by Homura prevented him from succeeding both times. (And it could be argued that he did succeed on the third attempt, when Homura was losing ot Walpurgisnacht. Madoka just came up with a wish that would undo what he hoped to accomplish.)

As far as keeping her from trying to make the Madokami wish, we can tell her quite honestly that it won't fix things. Because it won't. It only keeps magical girls from becoming witches, not from dying when their gems fill up. Sabrina can do better than that. Besides, making a wish that changes things that far in the past is too dangerous: there's no telling what the consequences might be. Sabrina might be erased from existence.... Well, the point is that I think that Madoka can be convinced to refrain from wishing, especially when the risk if she's wrong is worldwide extinction.

As for the idea that we shouldn't do it now because it's been a long day and we've already had a lot of difficult conversations and we're tired and we're stressed... when do you think would be a good time? Tomorrow, after we've had to wrangle three or four groups of ornery meguca? Monday, after we've had to unfuck the situation in Asunaro? Tuesday, after we've had to deal with some brand new crisis that we're not even aware of yet? This is never going to get any easier. It is only going to get harder the longer we put it off, because we will have more and more other bullshit to deal with.
 
TheEyes said:
I'm pretty sure there isn't anyone who wants to Witch-bomb Madoka. That's just someone's meaningless strawman, especially meaningless because it's not even attacking anyone.

Some of us want to Potential-bomb Madoka and Homura, to get it out of the way for Homura and to justify being especially pushy about Madoka's membership in the Don't Make A Wish Foundation. None of that means we need to bring up the direct link between meguca and witches, which we can't do to Mami for a while anyway.
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I went back to check, and KarneWarrior brought up Witchbombing Madoka, not sure if now or at some point in the future; all the "let's not Witchbomb Madoka" stems from that, I think, and all other talks of bombs were thrown under the witchbomb as a bit of a panic reaction.
 
The Narrator said:
As for the idea that we shouldn't do it now because it's been a long day and we've already had a lot of difficult conversations and we're tired and we're stressed... when do you think would be a good time? Tomorrow, after we've had to wrangle three or four groups of ornery meguca? Monday, after we've had to unfuck the situation in Asunaro? Tuesday, after we've had to deal with some brand new crisis that we're not even aware of yet? This is never going to get any easier. It is only going to get harder the longer we put it off, because we will have more and more other bullshit to deal with.
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Fucking timestop. I do not give two shits about Madoka's and Mami's daily routines if the alternative is Homura witching out because Kyubey got to her first. If that's seriously the best argument that any of you can muster against it, we should be doing it this update.
 
Well, it seems we have a bandwagon, which is a shame because @Redshirt Army's vote is currently so wishy-washy that it almost gaurantees that Madoka will put us off until later, which, as I understand, is his goal so in that sense it does what he's aiming to do. I really believe that we do need to talk to Madoka tonight, however, if only to get her to talk to Sayaka and Hitomi, and this vote isn't going to do it.
 
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[Q] "Doka, Doka, did you know...
-[A] "If you Contract, you will destroy the world?"
-[K] "KB is an alien?"
-[C] "Homu's hair is perf?"
-[D] "Shinigami love apples?"
-[W] "Meguca turn into Witches?"
-[F] "I'm your magical daughter from the future?"

TheEyes said:
Well, it seems we have a bandwagon, which is a shame because @Redshirt Army's vote is currently so wishy-washy that it almost gaurantees that Madoka will put us off until later, which, as I understand, is his goal so in that sense it does what he's aiming to do. I really believe that we do need to talk to Madoka tonight, however, if only to get her to talk to Sayaka and Hitomi, and this vote isn't going to do it.
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It's fine, you have to keep in mind the kind of person Madoka is. She puts pressure onto herself by default; if we do explain by phone what we can about the situation, that'd be enough pressure on Madoka that she simply won't be able to refuse.

It's not optimal, but the only way to allow Madoka a choice is to be vague and acknowledge that yes, it is late right now.

If we totally needed to have this conversation right now, we'd have to press, but we can do this tomorrow morning.
 
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Vebyast said:
Fucking timestop. I do not give two shits about Madoka's and Mami's daily routines if the alternative is Homura witching out because Kyubey got to her first. If that's seriously the best argument that any of you can muster against it, we should be doing it this update.
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I pretty much assume that we're going to have the conversation in timestop just for privacy's sake. I don't think a timestop vacation is necessary, however. Going home after this and getting some sleep while snuggling with Mami should be enough for us to unwind and reduce our stress.

Onmur said:
It's fine, you have to keep in mind the kind of person Madoka is. She puts pressure onto herself by default; if we do explain by phone what we can about the situation, that'd be enough pressure on Madoka that she simply won't be able to refuse.
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Firnagzen said, "Convince her." That would seem to indicate that getting her to see us is not a given.

If we want Madoka to see us now, we shouldn't hide the fact that it's important. Not to mention that pretending that it isn't important is a lie. We have serious things to talk to Madoka about: Sayaka and Hitomi being Orikobombed, Homura spending a decade in a Groundhog Day loop to save her, the possibility that Madoka could destroy the world.
 
The Narrator said:
I pretty much assume that we're going to have the conversation in timestop just for privacy's sake. I don't think a timestop vacation is necessary, however. Going home after this and getting some sleep while snuggling with Mami should be enough for us to unwind and reduce our stress.


Firnagzen said, "Convince her." That would seem to indicate that getting her to see us is not a given.

If we want Madoka to see us now, we shouldn't hide the fact that it's important. Not to mention that pretending that it isn't important is a lie. We have serious things to talk to Madoka about: Sayaka and Hitomi being Orikobombed, Homura spending a decade in a Groundhog Day loop to save her, the possibility that Madoka could destroy the world.
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Then convince her in other ways, like saying it's a travesty we haven't ever met Takkun, or the rest of Doka's family and we really would love to... include that we already convinced Homu to come over (oops!); I don't know, I'm bad at social, but I don't want to take away Madoka's agency in deciding whether this visit is gonna happen or not, and if we confirm her worries, Doka won't be able to say no.
 
Lying to her about the urgency of the information we have for her is respecting her agency? o_O

Respecting her agency would be giving her accurate information that she can use to make decisions, not keeping her ignorant.
 
The Narrator said:
Lying to her about the urgency of the information we have for her is respecting her agency? o_O

Respecting her agency would be giving her accurate information that she can use to make decisions, not keeping her ignorant.
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Can you imagine Madoka saying 'no' if we give her that accurate information?

I don't. If I thought Madoka would be able to get all the facts and still refuse, then I'd consider telling everything we can by phone.
 
Onmur said:
Can you imagine Madoka saying 'no' if we give her that accurate information?

I don't. If I thought Madoka would be able to get all the facts and still refuse, then I'd consider telling everything we can by phone.
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That's not how agency works. Do you think Oriko wasn't respecting our agency when she told us about Sendai? If someone will definitely go along with something if they know about it, that's an effect of their agency, not something separate from it.
 
Torgamous said:
That's not how agency works. Do you think Oriko wasn't respecting our agency when she told us about Sendai? If someone will definitely go along with something if they know about it, that's an effect of their agency, not something separate from it.
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People are more complicated than that.

What if we tell Doka that we need to talk either tonight or tomorrow morning, and that it shouldn't make a differen (except Homu hanging in trees/Doka worrying all night)?
 
Guys, Potentialbombing Madoka without also Witchbombing her means fucking lying and acting like Kyubey. No. Kyubey has no fucking goddamn leverage on Madoka at this point in time. If anything we need to focus on PREPPING Homura for the Potential bomb, which we can't really do tonight because of this stress with Oriko.
 
Vebyast said:
Given that Mami and Homura both objected, I'd have really preferred if that vote aborted before calling Madoka. Goddamnit.
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Is there any chance we can just ask for a retcon?

Because what I'm seeing is, we can't tell her it's nothing because that would be a lie. We can't tell her the important stuff because we're not ready. So we're basically screwed.
 
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Random832 said:
Is there any chance we can just ask for a retcon?

Because what I'm seeing is, we can't tell her it's nothing because that would be a lie. We can't tell her the important stuff because we're not ready. So we're basically screwed.
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The only retcon we're gonna get is Homura rewinding time. We made our vote, and we don't get to backtrack on it. And I say that as someone who voted against the last vote.
 
Redshirt Army said:
[X] Casually explain that nothing much is wrong, that we just weren't tired yet and time is better wasted with friends.
-[x] You did want to talk to her about a couple of things, although... (Sheepishly) You didn't realize it was almost seven until just now either. You can come by tommorow instead, if it's too late now?
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Should we mention that we've already convinced Homu to go over to Madoka's (oops!)?

[ ] "Also, It was somewhat difficult to convince Homura to go, and I'd hate to leave her hanging, so... please?"
-[Q] "Please, mom?"
--[Q] "Also, hanging, get it?"
 
Random832 said:
There's nothing wrong with asking. It seems like there was a serious disconnect between what we thought we were voting for and what actually happened.
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We got a retcon to make it one hour earlier than Firn figured it was.

To start with, the plan was to surprise-intrude into the Kaname's dinnertime, so of course Doka's a tad reluctant to hear this out of the blue.
 
Redshirt Army said:
[x] Telepathy Kyouko and mention that Sayaka said she ran into her. What's up?
-[x] If it seems like she's not spilling something juicy, jokingly claim that you could ask Yuma to clarify to what degree she exhibited the property of being "tsundere".
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I'm actually starting to rethink the whole "Pester for KyouSaya details" idea. We almost certainly can't include Mami in that conversation and we're trying to be more friendly to Homura. Telepathying Kyouko is a bit on the side of not including people. I... don't like that too much. Replace with, eh, trying to pester Homura more? Ask Mami first and then group-call Yuma so it's adorable and funny instead of DRAMAAAAA?
 
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