Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

[Onmur]

It's not really an Oriko Chibi unless Oriko makes and controls it (and what would Homura think), it's just an Oriko-shaped Sabrina Chibi. Unless it turns out that making differently shaped Chibis causes them to have an independent existence, a mind of their own and an uncontrollable urge to throw tomatoes at their creator.

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Maybe we could tell our Grief to connect to Oriko instead of to us, and Best Buddy could play with Chibi Oriko for as long as we're around.

Or maybe no, we just tell Best Buddy about Chibi Mami and Chibi Brina and she'd be jelly.

 

[ctulhuslp]

Her reaction shows quite a bit of strength of character, so deriding her over it is...

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Yes. I could understand if she was decried as too judgmental or self-righteous (even if I would disagree), but I am absolutely lost as to what pettiness has to do with her reaction.

 

[Random832]

The main problem is that it shows in three completely independent ways that she's dangerously naive about the realities of meguca:

1. It doesn't even occur to her that someone losing an arm (or a head) is a thing that happens in combat, her automatic assumption is that any injury like that is something that was done to a defeated opponent after a nonlethal slapfight.
2. It suggests, irrespective of her assumption that it was a punishment being wrong, that she thinks that 'normal' justice applies to meguca
3. She thinks trying to slap someone is reasonable. What if she'd tried to slap Oriko?

 

[ctulhuslp]

The main problem is that it shows in three completely independent ways that she's dangerously naive about the realities of meguca:

1. It doesn't even occur to her that someone losing an arm (or a head) is a thing that happens in combat, her automatic assumption is that any injury like that is something that was done to a defeated opponent after a nonlethal slapfight.
2. It suggests, irrespective of her assumption that it was a punishment being wrong, that she thinks that 'normal' justice applies to meguca
3. She thinks trying to slap someone is reasonable. What if she'd tried to slap Oriko?

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Which has nothing to do with pettiness and (almost) everything with the fact that Sabrina was feeding her incorrect information, on which it is hard to make correct conclusions. If we made it clear from the start that MGs are basically lawless gangs with QB clearing up everything, she wouldn't have made such assumptions.

Also, I doubt she'd try to slap somebody she does not...consider her friend or something like that. Matter of trust and ability to openly show emotions only to trusted people and/or in emotional circumstances. Though I may be wrong on this one. Still, I think that her making wrong assumptions about lifestyle of megucas is entirely fault of her information source - she physically had no way to arrive to more correct picture on such data.

 

[landcollector]

(almost) everything with the fact that Sabrina was feeding her incorrect information,

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Less incorrect, more incomplete I would think.

 

[Agent Whiskers]

Maybe because a friend is automatically assuming the worst of Sabrina in this situation. And what she's assuming is in deep contrast to Sabrina's past actions, motivation, and character, although there is truth to it. Sabrina did get pretty angry in that initial confrontation with Oriko.

Or it could just be that people are getting tired Sabrina's perceived passiveness in the face of any provocation and Hitomi just happens to be the latest case and thus a convenient target.

 

[Higure]

Well, yes. I know I'm not from experience. I want to salvage what I can, and something as small as someone else being petty or the fact that it would require me let go of my ego and eat large helpings of humble pie are not enough to stop me. Being submissive is my default role anyway, so I'm comfortable with that. I really don't care about "debasing myself" if it means that the other person feels better and is willing to repair our relationship afterwards. I just want to treat people nicely, and if they need me to "debase myself" in order to be positively influenced by me, then fine. It's really not a cost I care about.

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That explains a LOT. I'm literally the exact opposite. Not being in control is...difficult, for me. It's not like I can't handle it-I do, every day-but the thought of begging for forgiveness (my apologies for my earlier wording) from anyone but those closest to me is..honestly, I'd rather pay in blood or money. Reparations need to be made, and I can except a contract to do so, but I can count on one to three fingers the number of beings I'd willingly and genuinely submit to.

So...yeah, we probably will never agree on this.

 

[ctulhuslp]

Less incorrect, more incomplete I would think.

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My point still stands: it is utterly ridiculous to expect of any person, let alone currently emotionally imbalanced teenager, to arrive to correct conclusion given woefully incomplete and skewed information.

Maybe because a friend is automatically assuming the worst of Sabrina in this situation. And what she's assuming is in deep contrast to Sabrina's past actions, motivation, and character, although there is truth to it. Sabrina did get pretty angry in that initial confrontation with Oriko.

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She knew Sabrina for little more than a week.
Why should Hitomi trust us? Most of Sabrina's actions didn't touch her all that much, so yet again: woefully incomplete information leads to faulty conclusion.
Also, who the fuck trusts people they knew for about a week without truly exceptional circumstances anyway? Homu had her memories of past loop, Mami considers us only person who won't leave her (uuugh), we helped other people here and there, but does Hitomi know any of this?

 

[Vebyast]

How about following up the O&K meeting with full-lethality no-magic sparring, as a demonstration? Grief up a high-power regeneration machine, have Sabrina stand on the sidelines and armor up the participants' gems using Grief or even hold on to them outright, ban magic that could get through the griefy bits, and then tell them to go all-out. Start with Homura and Mami and ask them to make sure that the spar ends with the window to the spectators' booth covered in gunshot spatter.

 

[Random832]

How about following up the O&K meeting with full-lethality no-magic sparring, as a demonstration? Grief up a high-power regeneration machine, have Sabrina stand on the sidelines and armor up the participants' gems using Grief or even hold on to them outright, ban magic that could get through the griefy bits, and then tell them to go all-out. Start with Homura and Mami and ask them to make sure that the spar ends with the window to the spectators' booth covered in gunshot spatter.

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This assumes a level of triviality to healing that A) I'm not 100% sure is actually true B) I'm 100% sure we don't want to field the awkward questions it's going to raise about Oriko's arm.

Also, "no-magic"? Mami's guns are magic.

 

[DB_Explorer]

How about following up the O&K meeting with full-lethality no-magic sparring, as a demonstration? Grief up a high-power regeneration machine, have Sabrina stand on the sidelines and armor up the participants' gems using Grief or even hold on to them outright, ban magic that could get through the griefy bits, and then tell them to go all-out. Start with Homura and Mami and ask them to make sure that the spar ends with the window to the spectators' booth covered in gunshot spatter.

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I am now picturing the Mami vs Homura fight from... rebellion iirc.

 

[Vebyast]

Also, "no-magic"? Mami's guns are magic.

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Sorry, was thinking in term of D&D magic not PM magic. No save-or-dies, no conceptual armor-piercing attacks that could go through an armored shell of Grief, Homura might have to lay off on the timestop so people can spectate, etc.

I am now picturing the Mami vs Homura fight from... rebellion iirc.

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Pretty much.

Hmm, we'd also need to shield the volume so we don't get bullets flying off into the middle of nowhere.

This might be better done by getting everybody into the Mobile Oppression Grief Concorde and heading for the middle of the gobi desert.

 

[Sereg]

I know that someone here was arguing that we should be delaying the meeting, but I'm not that person. All I'm arguing for is the same two things I've been lobbying about for weeks:

• We needed to focus on S&H's dangerously provocative behavior and Sayaka's impulse control problems.
• We needed to stop genuflecting quite so much for things we've already apologized for, and definitely stop being so passive mode about things, which has been noted to be a pet peeve of our QM's.

I managed to get the thread to agree with me the first time, and then had that section of the vote cut out by @Firnagzen because it didn't fit the flow of conversation. In the next vote we couldn't muster up the courage to try again, and instead backslid into passive mode, apologizing a second and third time for the same thing while S&H got more and more confident that going for intimidation and physical threats are the way to win arguments with magical bioweapons. Now we're scene-switching to Oriko's house, and I'm getting really nervous about what's going to happen, but the last vote locked us into passive mode here, so there isn't anything to do but try to sway some of you more vocal people into maybe shifting your perspective before the next disaster starts.

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I agree that S&H need to be educated on behaviour around magical girls and so forth. I also believe they'll be more receptive to their education if we actually show that we're a reasonable individual who accepts their need to meet their attacker.

I disagree on the genuflecting, but I doubt we're going to convince each other. Also, accepting the decisions of others is not being passive. Yes, Sabrina's passiveness is a problem. Deciding to be contrary and disagree with people solely because you don't want to be passive does not fix that problem. It's just being immature.

I haven't been 100% following this conversation, but... is there some reason to believe that delaying will make it safer?

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Crassian believes so.

The main problem is that it shows in three completely independent ways that she's dangerously naive about the realities of meguca:

1. It doesn't even occur to her that someone losing an arm (or a head) is a thing that happens in combat, her automatic assumption is that any injury like that is something that was done to a defeated opponent after a nonlethal slapfight.
2. It suggests, irrespective of her assumption that it was a punishment being wrong, that she thinks that 'normal' justice applies to meguca
3. She thinks trying to slap someone is reasonable. What if she'd tried to slap Oriko?

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These are problems, but A: I agree with cthuluslp that context must be considered. B: I also agree with him that it has nothing to do with the flaws that were being discussed at the time.

Maybe because a friend is automatically assuming the worst of Sabrina in this situation. And what she's assuming is in deep contrast to Sabrina's past actions, motivation, and character, although there is truth to it. Sabrina did get pretty angry in that initial confrontation with Oriko.

Or it could just be that people are getting tired Sabrina's perceived passiveness in the face of any provocation and Hitomi just happens to be the latest case and thus a convenient target.

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Which is unfair to Hitomi, because A: She has a point. B: It's not her fault that we've been passive C: Again, agreeing with her does not make us passive, nor does disagreeing with her fix that problem. It just creates a new one.

 

[Onmur]

Grief up a high-power regeneration machine

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Can't do that.

 

[ctulhuslp]

How about following up the O&K meeting with full-lethality no-magic sparring, as a demonstration? Grief up a high-power regeneration machine, have Sabrina stand on the sidelines and armor up the participants' gems using Grief or even hold on to them outright, ban magic that could get through the griefy bits, and then tell them to go all-out. Start with Homura and Mami and ask them to make sure that the spar ends with the window to the spectators' booth covered in gunshot spatter.

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Ehh. There are less exotic ways to drive the point home.
Also, after the situation with O&K&S&H is resolved, I still want to clear up whether we can attack Walpurgisnacht first before she arrives at Mitakihara. Homu will be happy with us at last trying to do something which coincides with her goals for once.

 

[Higure]

Man, if you look at the update, you can see her saying what basically amounts to "Yes, I can see your point but am too upset to admit it, sorry" in angry-teenage-speak. She is not cardboard cutout intent on being stupid, whatever Homura's opinion is.

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Which was my assumption. The last bits are possible issues that arise if she proves us wrong.

> doesn't give a fuck about her own broken arm, gets up in arms the moment we appear to be vindictive
> is not wrong about us being vindictive, looking at Witch-intimidation
> is accused of pettiness of all things

What was your thought process?

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If she is upset enough to cut ties based solely based upon her fixation on her particular perception of Justice, then she demonstrated to be short-sighted: She isn't able to step outside her existing worldview and consider alternatives. She judges others based solely upon her understanding of justice in a civilized and lawbound society, regardless of what conditions they exist in.

If she has been nursing such a grudge about her arm (which I doubt, but it's the only thing O&K did to her personally), then she has demonstrated herself to be petty: Perpetuating conflict and shattering friendships over something incredibly minor.

I think better of her than this, but I was discussing the topic while recognizing the fallibility of my own judgement: These are the two scenarios that could lead to a long-term schism, and I was explaining why if they occured, I would be willing to let Hitomi go. I do not at all believe the latter will occur, and strongly doubt the former.

 

[Vebyast]

Can't do that.

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I must have missed the experiment that demonstrated impossibility. Nevermind, then.

 

[ctulhuslp]

Which was my assumption. The last bits are possible issues that arise if she proves us wrong.


If she is upset enough to cut ties basef solely based upon her fixation on her particular perception of Justice, then she demonstrated to be short-sighted: She isn't able to step outside her existing worldview and consider alternatives. She judges others based solely upon her understanding of justice in a civilized and lawbound society, regardless of what conditions they exist in.

If she has been nursing such a grudge about her arm (which I doubt, but it's the only thing O&K did to her personally), then she has demonstrated herself to be petty: Perpetuating conflict and shattering friendships over something incredibly minor.

I think better of her than this, but I was discussing the topic while recognizing the fallibility of my own judgement: These are the two scenarios that could lead to a long-term schism, and I was explaining why if they occured, I would be willing to let Hitomi go. I do not at all believe the latter will occur, and strongly doubt the former.

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Ah, fair enough.
I believe I've made my position clear, but, to clarify: I think the main cause is that we presented meguca life in a skewed light to both Sayaka and Hitomi and thus they were unable to act according to real state of affairs - of which they had no hint of information.
Hitomi would indeed be short-sighted if she had full knowledge of meguca life and arrived to the same conclusions; as it is, she judges situation based on hilariously incorrect data and, unless she keeps doing similar mistakes after getting more representative information, I can't even start to blame her.
I can't reasonably expect person to arrive to correct conclusion via fundamentally shitty data. Especially since we kinda were the source of the shitty data in the first place, so Sabrina reaps what she has sown when she misrepresented things.

You give people disinformation, you get misinformed people, what the fuck do you expect to happen?

 

[Sereg]

My point still stands: it is utterly ridiculous to expect of any person, let alone currently emotionally imbalanced teenager, to arrive to correct conclusion given woefully incomplete and skewed information.



She knew Sabrina for little more than a week.
Why should Hitomi trust us? Most of Sabrina's actions didn't touch her all that much, so yet again: woefully incomplete information leads to faulty conclusion.
Also, who the fuck trusts people they knew for about a week without truly exceptional circumstances anyway? Homu had her memories of past loop, Mami considers us only person who won't leave her (uuugh), we helped other people here and there, but does Hitomi know any of this?

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This! All of this! I've experienced greater betrayals from people I'd known for years. What reasons have we given Hitomi to trust us so much even in situations utterly unlike any in which she has experience of us?

 

[Madou Sutegobana]

@Sereg you need better friends!

 

[ctulhuslp]

What reasons have we given Hitomi to trust us so much even in situations utterly unlike any in which she has experience of us?

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None.
That's why I maintain that this quest really needs "hubris" tag. Expecting people who barely know us to blindly trust us in a life or death matters when we knowingly misinformed them regarding those situations (however good were the intentions) purely because "but we are so amazing why they can't somehow magically see it even if we never shown it and sometimes actually hid it from them" more than qualifies.

 

[Sereg]

@Sereg you need better friends!

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Thank you. That would be lovely. Though I was mainly thinking of family there. Not that it changes your point that increasing the number of good quality friends in my life would be helpful.

EDIT:^ Yes! I keep getting shocked that we have this attitude towards people (also that other people are insects before the might of our enormous powers we have no need to train or improve in any way)

 

[ctulhuslp]

EDIT:^ Yes! I keep getting shocked that we have this attitude towards people (also that other people are insects before the might of our enormous powers we have no need to train or improve in any way)

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Um. Is this a jab at Ugo's line of thought?
If it is, that's a strawman of Ugo's arguments. (S)He's mostly arguing from position of....narrative weight of things or something like that. Which makes sense. Granted, (s)he takes it a bit too far with insistence on not training beyond, hm, what (s)he considers essential (dewitching and other plot-relevant powers), but "we are too good for those insects and don't ever need to train" is not what Ugo says.

 

[Agent Whiskers]

She knew Sabrina for little more than a week.
Why should Hitomi trust us? Most of Sabrina's actions didn't touch her all that much, so yet again: woefully incomplete information leads to faulty conclusion.
Also, who the fuck trusts people they knew for about a week without truly exceptional circumstances anyway? Homu had her memories of past loop, Mami considers us only person who won't leave her (uuugh), we helped other people here and there, but does Hitomi know any of this?

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I didn't say it was logical. And people often aren't. I didn't see you guys deriding Mami or Homura over some of their reactions.

It is slightly worrying that some people are still harping over this, though. It's It's really not worth holding a grudge

None.
That's why I maintain that this quest really needs "hubris" tag. Expecting people who barely know us to blindly trust us in a life or death matters when we knowingly misinformed them regarding those situations (however good were the intentions) purely because "but we are so amazing why they can't somehow magically see it even if we never shown it and sometimes actually hid it from them" more than qualifies.

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Spare me the generalizations. Only a couple of people are still thinking about that. Most of us seem to agree that it wasn't that big of an issue, for some of the reasons that you described.

And yeah, forgive me for momentarily being upset that Hitomi would apparently think that we're the sort of person to go around looping people's arms out of revenge. Despite intellectually knowing she has justification and saying so later. Clearly we should all be 100% logical all the time. Just keep on cheerfully suppressing.

 

[Vebyast]

I hope Homura joins this conversation, if only so she can say things like "We should have killed them" or "You're not getting your arm back" and Sayaka and Hitomi can engage her on those topics.