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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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I admit that I can be a really dense idiot sometimes (read: almost everday), but can I get a second opinion in the thread? Coginitive bias and all.

When I said this:
defenestrator said:
[X] Kaizuki

Btw, would this make 2 out of 2 on "Reasons why Sabrina is hilariously bad at social and shoul just delegate it if possible"? First one being our negotiations with Akiko back in Sendai.
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Did I in any way say or imply that I wanted to:
- never do social (though yeah I can see this with the 'delegate social if possible')
- put the quest into autopilot
- turn Sabrina into a passive, lazy coward
- make the story unreadable
- have plans, apparently, to undermine people who can construct intelligent social votes
- I want to literally ruin the quest
- somehow wanted every vote to turn to [] Do Nothing And Let Shit Happen.
- an attempt to not actually questing in a quest

Though I will fully admit that I was wrong, and Sabrina is not hilariously bad at social. As it has been subtly pointed out to me, we've had successes too with social, like having Homu spare O&K, our progress on reversing Oriko's fatalism, and many others.

I also admit that it should not be "when possible" but "when reasonable" instead. But if we're going to meet the Tokyo MG groups soon (was it tomortow?), shouldn't we at least consider Mami speak in our behalf? Since she have had her reputation far longer, and she's more aware of the social dynamics of meguca groups. That, and let's admit it, she really is much better in diplo than Sabrina.
 
defenestrator said:
I admit that I can be a really dense idiot sometimes (read: almost everday), but can I get a second opinion in the thread? Coginitive bias and all.

When I said this:

Did I in any way say or imply that I wanted to:
- never do social (though yeah I can see this with the 'delegate social if possible')
- put the quest into autopilot
- turn Sabrina into a passive, lazy coward
- make the story unreadable
- have plans, apparently, to undermine people who can construct intelligent social votes
- I want to literally ruin the quest
- somehow wanted every vote to turn to [] Do Nothing And Let Shit Happen.
- an attempt to not actually questing in a quest

Though I will fully admit that I was wrong, and Sabrina is not hilariously bad at social. As it has been subtly pointed out to me, we've had successes too with social, like having Homu spare O&K, our progress on reversing Oriko's fatalism, and many others.

I also admit that it should not be "when possible" but "when reasonable" instead. But if we're going to meet the Tokyo MG groups soon (was it tomortow?), shouldn't we at least consider Mami speak in our behalf? Since she have had her reputation far longer, and she's more aware of the social dynamics of meguca groups. That, and let's admit it, she really is much better in diplo than Sabrina.
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I'll tackle this in order:

Never do social? Yeah, pretty straightforwardly.

Put the quest onto autopilot? Yeah, basically, considering that dealing with other people is the overwhelming majority of both the content and the challenge in the quest.

Turn Sabrina into a passive, lazy coward? In my opinion, yes. She knows how bad things can and have gone without her intervention. Washing her hands of even trying?

Make the story unreadable? You'd basically give Firn nothing to work with, which would certainly impact the quality of the quest, but I don't know if it'd be unreadable.

Plans to undermine people who make intelligent vote? Nah, I don't think you make plans.

Want to literally ruin the quest? Well, what you suggested would ruin the quest, so... not directly, no.

Turn every vote into do nothing and let shit happen? Nah, I figure you'd want to have a bunch of power-tinkering votes.

An attempt to not actually questing in a quest? Not at all. Questing really, really poorly, but still questing.
 
I suppose that now is a good a time as any to restate a hypothesis I had regarding Oriko's powers quite a ways back; namely that Oriko's visions may be limited to seeing futures relative to her current self, and that if she's seeing herself as doomed that only means that she's doomed if she doesn't change. In other words, while she might not have been able to find a way to save herself Sayaka might, because she'd be seeing things from another angle.

Of course, there's a bunch of other problems that'll spring up if Sayaka copies Oriko's powers, but those are little trifling things, right? :V

(All of the other stuff mentioned aside, she'd also be getting a good long look at Homura's secrets, which has it's own ups and downs. She may or may not also be able to track down that other magical girl you've been keeping an eye out for.)
 
Godwinson said:
An attempt to not actually questing in a quest? Not at all. Questing really, really poorly, but still questing.
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It's a matter of preference, not an objective value judgment. I tried participating in this quest for a while and dropped out because I prefer quests where the QM makes 90% of the decisions/rolls and only asks the audience to weigh on a few decision points, rather than quests like this one where the forum is expected to be a co-author who has to run everything the character does. I'm learned that "What Next" or "Write In" as the sole prompt is a strong sign for me to NOPE out of a quest if it's the standard.

This is the quest that it is, and I've learned to accept that it's not a very fun one for me to participate in (still decent to read). Defenstrator might still be in that denial "couldn't we do this in a way I would actually enjoy" phase.
 
Briefvoice said:
It's a matter of preference, not an objective value judgment. I tried participating in this quest for a while and dropped out because I prefer quests where the QM makes 90% of the decisions/rolls and only asks the audience to weigh on a few decision points, rather than quests like this one where the forum is expected to be a co-author who has to run everything the character does. I'm learned that "What Next" or "Write In" as the sole prompt is a strong sign for me to NOPE out of a quest if it's the standard.

This is the quest that it is, and I've learned to accept that it's not a very fun one for me to participate in (still decent to read). Defenstrator might still be in that denial "couldn't we do this in a way I would actually enjoy" phase.
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Okay, I hadn't thought it might just be "He's an asshole looking to change a long-standing quest to be more enjoyable for him, at the expense of the people who'd been involved in it for the past two years", because that's basically what that would amount to, and I don't typically assume people are assholes until they prove me wrong.
 
defenestrator said:
Huh.

Really did not expect to be taken this negatively.
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Okay, if you were trying to argue to change the way the quest works at that level, then yeah, it'll be taken negatively. It's like showing up at a chocolate-lovers convention and telling them they should be serving everything with strawberry flavoring instead, because that's what you prefer.
 
defenestrator said:
I admit that I can be a really dense idiot sometimes (read: almost everday), but can I get a second opinion in the thread? Coginitive bias and all.

When I said this:

Did I in any way say or imply that I wanted to:
- never do social (though yeah I can see this with the 'delegate social if possible')
- put the quest into autopilot
- turn Sabrina into a passive, lazy coward
- make the story unreadable
- have plans, apparently, to undermine people who can construct intelligent social votes
- I want to literally ruin the quest
- somehow wanted every vote to turn to [] Do Nothing And Let Shit Happen.
- an attempt to not actually questing in a quest

Though I will fully admit that I was wrong, and Sabrina is not hilariously bad at social. As it has been subtly pointed out to me, we've had successes too with social, like having Homu spare O&K, our progress on reversing Oriko's fatalism, and many others.

I also admit that it should not be "when possible" but "when reasonable" instead. But if we're going to meet the Tokyo MG groups soon (was it tomortow?), shouldn't we at least consider Mami speak in our behalf? Since she have had her reputation far longer, and she's more aware of the social dynamics of meguca groups. That, and let's admit it, she really is much better in diplo than Sabrina.
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No. I believed you were making a joke and doing some lighthearted ribbing.
 
[X]Kaizuki

Sereg said:
Okay. Again, you thought I was saying something different from what I was saying. We have those options, yes. But that is not what happens when you "Move on". I have "Moved on" before. It means the relationship is dead. Maybe one side can rekindle it later, but at that time, it's dead. They totally can ignore our advice and authority, because they have decided we have no authority. Authority that is not acknowledged doesn't exist. In an example from my own life, once I "moved on" from my step-mother, I no longer acknowledged her authority as my mother. When I "moved on" from my sister, we didn't see each other until she decided she was willing to again. That is what moving on means, and I don't want to do that, nor do I think they'll push me to the point where I want to. I disagree with your second point on why apologising more is bad, but let's just agree to disagree on that. As to your first, it's worked for me before Admittedly, perhaps the individuals in question enjoyed my "debasement of myself", but the point is it can work and I know that from experience.
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Authority is a lot harder to ignore when it's the person's ability to annihilate or imprison you talking...authority born of overwhelming power, rather than intimacy. Tyranny. Not saying it's my preferred choice, but I don't mimd using it if that's what it comes down to.

You're right that "moving on" can mean that, if the person's grudge remains strong, but that isn't common in most situations, as I know from numerous arguments throughout my life. Sayaka is pissed, but we've apologized, acknowledged our wrongdoing, and taken a significant step towards making amends. She'll likely come around once she's calmed down properly. If not...that's her choice. Her life is hers, we can save her from Witching whether she likes it or not, and an anonymous gift can rebuild her house. The only real problem will be if she decides she wants to kill us, but I don't think Sayaka's messed up enough to develop that degree of hatred.

As for Hitomi, we haven't significantly sinned against her. We should have told her the one who hurt her was caught, but it's a broken arm, not a loved one. If she wants to cut ties over that or a refusal to recognize the realities that make her vaunted justice near-nonexistent for Magi, then so be it. She's ultimately not that important to our main objectives. Losing a friend would suck, and things might get awkward, but someone who acts that shortsighted and petty isn't someone I feel strongly about holding on to.

Honestly, I think the big difference here is simple: I'm willing to part ways with someone who rejects a thorough attempt to make things right.

You don't seem to be.
 
Higure said:
You're right that "moving on" can mean that, if the person's grudge remains strong, but that isn't common in most situations, as I know from numerous arguments throughout my life. Sayaka is pissed, but we've apologized, acknowledged our wrongdoing, and taken a significant step towards making amends. She'll likely come around once she's calmed down properly. If not...that's her choice. Her life is hers, we can save her from Witching whether she likes it or not, and an anonymous gift can rebuild her house. The only real problem will be if she decides she wants to kill us, but I don't think Sayaka's messed up enough to develop that degree of hatred.
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Man, if you look at the update, you can see her saying what basically amounts to "Yes, I can see your point but am too upset to admit it, sorry" in angry-teenage-speak. She is not cardboard cutout intent on being stupid, whatever Homura's opinion is.

Higure said:
As for Hitomi, we haven't significantly sinned against her. We should have told her the one who hurt her was caught, but it's a broken arm, not a loved one. If she wants to cut ties over that or a refusal to recognize the realities that make her vaunted justice near-nonexistent for Magi, then so be it. She's ultimately not that important to our main objectives. Losing a friend would suck, and things might get awkward, but someone who acts that shortsighted and petty isn't someone I feel strongly about holding on to.
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> doesn't give a fuck about her own broken arm, gets up in arms the moment we appear to be vindictive
> is not wrong about us being vindictive, looking at Witch-intimidation
> is accused of pettiness of all things

What was your thought process?
 
Higure said:
[X]Kaizuki

Authority is a lot harder to ignore when it's the person's ability to annihilate or imprison you talking...authority born of overwhelming power, rather than intimacy. Tyranny. Not saying it's my preferred choice, but I don't mimd using it if that's what it comes down to.

You're right that "moving on" can mean that, if the person's grudge remains strong, but that isn't common in most situations, as I know from numerous arguments throughout my life. Sayaka is pissed, but we've apologized, acknowledged our wrongdoing, and taken a significant step towards making amends. She'll likely come around once she's calmed down properly. If not...that's her choice. Her life is hers, we can save her from Witching whether she likes it or not, and an anonymous gift can rebuild her house. The only real problem will be if she decides she wants to kill us, but I don't think Sayaka's messed up enough to develop that degree of hatred.

As for Hitomi, we haven't significantly sinned against her. We should have told her the one who hurt her was caught, but it's a broken arm, not a loved one. If she wants to cut ties over that or a refusal to recognize the realities that make her vaunted justice near-nonexistent for Magi, then so be it. She's ultimately not that important to our main objectives. Losing a friend would suck, and things might get awkward, but someone who acts that shortsighted and petty isn't someone I feel strongly about holding on to.

Honestly, I think the big difference here is simple: I'm willing to part ways with someone who rejects a thorough attempt to make things right.

You don't seem to be.
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Well, yes. I know I'm not from experience. I want to salvage what I can, and something as small as someone else being petty or the fact that it would require me let go of my ego and eat large helpings of humble pie are not enough to stop me. Being submissive is my default role anyway, so I'm comfortable with that. I really don't care about "debasing myself" if it means that the other person feels better and is willing to repair our relationship afterwards. I just want to treat people nicely, and if they need me to "debase myself" in order to be positively influenced by me, then fine. It's really not a cost I care about.
 
Sereg said:
Most of this is fine, but there's a major error here. We didn't vote that way because we didn't have the courage to correct someone when they're about to make a horrible mistake. It's because we never believed it would be a mistake in the first place. You never said "Delay the meeting. Now is too dangerous." So we never thought, "Meeting now is too dangerous, but we don't want to upset Sayaka and Hitomi, so let;s do it anyway." What we actually thought was, "They want to meet Oriko now? Sure. That works out quite well. No problems with that."
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I know that someone here was arguing that we should be delaying the meeting, but I'm not that person. All I'm arguing for is the same two things I've been lobbying about for weeks:
  • We needed to focus on S&H's dangerously provocative behavior and Sayaka's impulse control problems.
  • We needed to stop genuflecting quite so much for things we've already apologized for, and definitely stop being so passive mode about things, which has been noted to be a pet peeve of our QM's.
I managed to get the thread to agree with me the first time, and then had that section of the vote cut out by @Firnagzen because it didn't fit the flow of conversation. In the next vote we couldn't muster up the courage to try again, and instead backslid into passive mode, apologizing a second and third time for the same thing while S&H got more and more confident that going for intimidation and physical threats are the way to win arguments with magical bioweapons. Now we're scene-switching to Oriko's house, and I'm getting really nervous about what's going to happen, but the last vote locked us into passive mode here, so there isn't anything to do but try to sway some of you more vocal people into maybe shifting your perspective before the next disaster starts.
 
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Out of curiosity, is our Obrez small enough to carry in under our coat unnoticed?

Also, when Chibis for everyone? I think we could really get #2 place in Best Buddy's mind if we gave her an Oriko Chibi.
 
TheEyes said:
while S&H got more and more confident that going for intimidation and physical threats are the way to win arguments with magical bioweapons.
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This seems to be the core of your problems, but frankly, I don't see it at all. As far as I can tell, they are distressed and upset teenagers venting on the person who they considered friend and who may or may not have betrayed them and are still trusting enough to vent in this way.
Like, I just can't understand how their acts are intimidation in any shape or form.
 
Sereg said:
It's because we never believed it would be a mistake in the first place. You never said "Delay the meeting. Now is too dangerous."
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I haven't been 100% following this conversation, but... is there some reason to believe that delaying will make it safer?

Onmur said:
Out of curiosity, is our Obrez small enough to carry in under our coat unnoticed?

Also, when Chibis for everyone? I think we could really get #2 place in Best Buddy's mind if we gave her an Oriko Chibi.
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It's not really an Oriko Chibi unless Oriko makes and controls it (and what would Homura think), it's just an Oriko-shaped Sabrina Chibi. Unless it turns out that making differently shaped Chibis causes them to have an independent existence, a mind of their own and an uncontrollable urge to throw tomatoes at their creator.
 
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ctulhuslp said:
Man, if you look at the update, you can see her saying what basically amounts to "Yes, I can see your point but am too upset to admit it, sorry" in angry-teenage-speak. She is not cardboard cutout intent on being stupid, whatever Homura's opinion is.



> doesn't give a fuck about her own broken arm, gets up in arms the moment we appear to be vindictive
> is not wrong about us being vindictive, looking at Witch-intimidation
> is accused of pettiness of all things

What was your thought process?
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Yes to both of this. Hitomi just found out about us keeping the identity of the person who broke her arm from her, then got upset because she thought we were too harsh with the punishment.

Her reaction shows quite a bit of strength of character, so deriding her over it is... o_O
 
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