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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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AuraTwilight said:
There's a fallacy here; plenty of intelligent life in the PMMM-verse doesn't have emotions and thus magic. So a non-infinite subset of an infinite amount of lifeforms are capable of performing magic, and a subset of that subset is capable of doing Madoka-level bullshit.
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Sorry, but infinites do not work that way.

For there to exist a non-infinite subset of magical-performing beings, you have to assume they exist somewhere. If they exist somewhere, then that region of space has an specific configuration. If that configuration does not repeat on an infinite universe, that universe cannot be homogenous.

Thus, the cosmological principle does not apply.

This already requires a stupid number of 1-in-a-few-million dice rolls, but then Homura needs to keep this up for hundreds of loops without A) Dying, B) Witching out, C) Giving up, or D) Succeeding.
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If you deal with infinite space, all possible configurations occur eventually. So any probability, as long as it's not 0, is 1 somewhere. There's no such thing as "probability low enough it only happens n times"
 
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bird_poison said:
If you deal with infinite space, all possible configurations occur eventually.
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<Mechanic>Well, there's your problem.</Mechanic> Who said the universe was infinite?

The prevailing theory is that the universe isn't infinite, in time or in space. It's estimated that the universe is ~13.8 billion years old. Ergo, there has not been an infinite amount of time for all finitely improbable events to occur an infinite number of times.

AramilOniasha said:
We could probably Hug grapple her by just jumping at her, unless she decided to resist.
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Y'know, I don't think we ever see her arms move, so I don't think she can roll to resist the grapple.

Have we discovered Walpy's secret weakness? She can tank multiple AT-4 HEAT warheads, but she's weak against grappling? :lol
 
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bird_poison said:
Thus, the cosmological principle does not apply.
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Magic exists.

In series, conservation of momentum and kinetic energy, for one, are already visibly broken. The laws of thermodynamics as we formulate therm are already broken. The Witching out of a meguca may or may not generate sufficient energy to significantly impact entropy: but it visibly and demonstrably does generate energy in the form of the mass of the Witch and a pocket universe.

Physics as we know them is already out of the window. Some of the most fundamental tenets of physics are broken.

Time travel is possible.

Causality is broken.

Why privilege the cosmological principle?
 
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The Narrator said:
The prevailing theory is that the universe isn't infinite, in time or in space. It's estimated that the universe is ~13.8 billion years old. Ergo, there has not been an infinite amount of time for all finitely improbable events to occur an infinite number of times.
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The universe is not infinitely old, that much is already assumed, and it's called the big bang theory.

That, however, does not imply the universe is infinite in space. The PMMM universe may be finite in space (less headaches that way), but the big bang is not reason enough to assume that.

And again, you don't need infinite time for an event to occur an infinite number of times. Take for example supernovae. They are an extremely rare occurence, only happening to 0,001% of all stars, and only possible since stars were able to acquire enough mass.

In an infinite-sized universe, there's an infinite amount of supernovae, and the moment the first one was capable of exploding, there was an infinite number of them exploding simultaneously.

Firnagzen said: Why privilege the cosmological principle?
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I like relativity :(
 
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Redshirt Army said:
I actually calculated this.



If the Incubators are actually combating entropy with grief, then even given very generous assumptions about the amount of grief they have access to, grief has to be several orders of magnitude more energy dense than pure matter -> energy conversion.
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Assuming that Grief operates like real power sources. As a magic power source, it's possible that Grief could do something weird like each unit of grief producing 1 watt per second forever.
cmwatford said:
Vivisection/Torture is still unethical even when done to an incubator.
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It's not torture if no discomfort occurs.
 
Firnagzen said:
Magic exists.

In series, conservation of momentum and kinetic energy, for one, are already visibly broken. The laws of thermodynamics as we formulate therm are already broken. The Witching out of a meguca may or may not generate sufficient energy to significantly impact entropy: but it visibly and demonstrably does generate energy in the form of the mass of the Witch and a pocket universe.

Physics as we know them is already out of the window. Some of the most fundamental tenets of physics are broken.

Time travel is possible.

Causality is broken.

Why privilege the cosmological principle?
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LostDeviljho said:
They're fairly straightforward, actually.
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My only issue with them is that you have to completely ignore normal real-world intuition and wholly accept the grapple rules. Like, the bit where you can pile arbitrarily large numbers of people into a single 5x5 grapple pile, where they can then all use their actions to move the entire pile their speed or attack out of it with a weapon or even (if they make a concentration check) cast a spell out of it, so what you do is pile 5k fighters and 500 wizards into a single square and the fighters drag the pile around at approximately 7 kps while the wizards blow the hell out of everything. It works once you're used to them, and they can be fun to break, but it's just a tiny bit harder to get into the right state of mind for them.
 
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This talk reminds me of a quote I saw once....

FaceMeltor said:
QB explicitly said that only emotional beings have the potential for magic. What he means with that is that only emotional beings can defy entropy and save the universe since otherwise he wouldn't be giving them the possibility for magic in the first place.

The boiled down essence of these bits of info is that humans can and will break the laws of the universe when their magical potential is unlocked.

Breaking the laws of physics, FUCK. I know on this page that kind of phrasing gets tossed around easily, but god-dammit, imagine and think for a second. On these laws the fabric of the universe has been built. These are the kind of rules that make sure that when you empty a glass of water downwards it will go downwards and not Strawberry Glue. You get where I'm going with this? This shit is FUNDAMENTAL, existentially needed for the universe and we fuck it six ways till Easter. It's like Spiral Power all over again.

When you can crack that kind of rule then anything is possible. Quite literally. Such as making techno music taste like chicken. I bet if someone wished for it it would happen. And work out.

Source
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Vebyast said:
My only issue with them is that you have to completely ignore normal real-world intuition and wholly accept the grapple rules. Like, the bit where you can pile arbitrarily large numbers of people into a single 5x5 grapple pile, where they can then all use their actions to move the entire pile their speed or attack out of it with a weapon or even (if they make a concentration check) cast a spell out of it, so what you do is pile 5k fighters and 500 wizards into a single square and the fighters drag the pile around at approximately 7 kps while the wizards blow the hell out of everything. It works once you're used to them, and they can be fun to break, but it's just a tiny bit harder to get into the right state of mind for them.
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Then one of the wizards flubs a spell, and the whole thing turns into several Hecatoncheires.
 
Higure said:
I agree with everything here, except for that part about Incubators inventing Magic: Magic is almost certainly a natural ability of the Soul. The Incubators simply facilitated it's expression.
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They invented technology that turns emotional qualia into causal effects, ergo Magic, so while it existed, they invented it's usable form.

bird_poison said:
Sorry, but infinites do not work that way.

For there to exist a non-infinite subset of magical-performing beings, you have to assume they exist somewhere. If they exist somewhere, then that region of space has an specific configuration. If that configuration does not repeat on an infinite universe, that universe cannot be homogenous.

Thus, the cosmological principle does not apply.
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Fucking no. This isn't even relevant, the cosmological principle is about the distribution of matter in the universe and whether it's homogenous and isotropic. The evolution of biological life and whether or not that life is capable of emotional qualia has absolutely nothing to do it.

That's like trying to apply the theory of evolution to the development of stars.

If you deal with infinite space, all possible configurations occur eventually. So any probability, as long as it's not 0, is 1 somewhere. There's no such thing as "probability low enough it only happens n times"
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If the universe were infinite, the Incubators would not be dealing with an energy crisis requiring the harvesting of teenage girls.

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The universe is not infinitely old, that much is already assumed, and it's called the big bang theory.

That, however, does not imply the universe is infinite in space. The PMMM universe may be finite in space (less headaches that way), but the big bang is not reason enough to assume that.

And again, you don't need infinite time for an event to occur an infinite number of times. Take for example supernovae. They are an extremely rare occurence, only happening to 0,001% of all stars, and only possible since stars were able to acquire enough mass.

In an infinite-sized universe, there's an infinite amount of supernovae, and the moment the first one was capable of exploding, there was an infinite number of them exploding simultaneously.
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The universe does not have infinite space because the Big Bang's expansion happened at a non-infinite rate. The universe in real life is held to be non-infinite in space, but bounded and expanding faster than anyone will ever reach.

An event cannot occur an infinite number of times without infinite time or infinite space, and the universe provides neither because it has a finite timeline and a finite rate of expansion. It's functionally infinite because it grows faster than can be explored, but since magic only happens with the intervention of a specific post-singularity civilization, the amount of times Magical Girls can occur is finite.

Also, said Post-Singularity Civilization looked at this magic shit and declared "This is against science. This is against physics. This is literally straight up magic and we cannot comprehend it with our goddamn hive-mind of hyper-intelligences who treat the Heat Death of the Universe as literally the only problem."

The fuck does our comparatively worthless child's scrawlings of physics matter?
 
Um, I could've sworn that the universe was infinite, that it was merely the observable universe that was finite, due to the speed of light?

I'll readily admit, though, this subject might be within my reach, but it's beyond my grasp.
 
bird_poison said:
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The universe is not infinitely old, that much is already assumed, and it's called the big bang theory.

That, however, does not imply the universe is infinite in space. The PMMM universe may be finite in space (less headaches that way), but the big bang is not reason enough to assume that.

And again, you don't need infinite time for an event to occur an infinite number of times. Take for example supernovae. They are an extremely rare occurence, only happening to 0,001% of all stars, and only possible since stars were able to acquire enough mass.

In an infinite-sized universe, there's an infinite amount of supernovae, and the moment the first one was capable of exploding, there was an infinite number of them exploding simultaneously.


I like relativity :(
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But does relativity like you?
 
Godwinson said:
Um, I could've sworn that the universe was infinite, that it was merely the observable universe that was finite, due to the speed of light?

I'll readily admit, though, this subject might be within my reach, but it's beyond my grasp.
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IIRC, the size of the observable universe is actually constant-ish and is based on the fact that light gradually disperses as it hits other stuff, and that space isn't actually 100% empty.

Observable Universe is the max distance away from which light can reach us without getting completely dispersed first.

Edit:
No, I was thinking of something else.
 
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AuraTwilight said:
They invented technology that turns emotional qualia into causal effects, ergo Magic, so while it existed, they invented it's usable form.



Fucking no. This isn't even relevant, the cosmological principle is about the distribution of matter in the universe and whether it's homogenous and isotropic. The evolution of biological life and whether or not that life is capable of emotional qualia has absolutely nothing to do it.

That's like trying to apply the theory of evolution to the development of stars.



If the universe were infinite, the Incubators would not be dealing with an energy crisis requiring the harvesting of teenage girls.



The universe does not have infinite space because the Big Bang's expansion happened at a non-infinite rate. The universe in real life is held to be non-infinite in space, but bounded and expanding faster than anyone will ever reach.

An event cannot occur an infinite number of times without infinite time or infinite space, and the universe provides neither because it has a finite timeline and a finite rate of expansion. It's functionally infinite because it grows faster than can be explored, but since magic only happens with the intervention of a specific post-singularity civilization, the amount of times Magical Girls can occur is finite.

Also, said Post-Singularity Civilization looked at this magic shit and declared "This is against science. This is against physics. This is literally straight up magic and we cannot comprehend it with our goddamn hive-mind of hyper-intelligences who treat the Heat Death of the Universe as literally the only problem."

The fuck does our comparatively worthless child's scrawlings of physics matter?
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I think we should stop to not derail the thread, but I'm going to leave you some links.

Hilbert's paradox of the Grand Hotel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia About the curiosities of infinite sets.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0102010v2.pdf About the properties of a quantum infinite universe.
 
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