Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
OK, see? Now that's an argument.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I actually calculated this.
If the Incubators are actually combating entropy with grief, then even given very generous assumptions about the amount of grief they have access to, grief has to be several orders of magnitude more energy dense than pure matter -> energy conversion.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
Disregard canon. Acquire author's fiat.
(seriously if you already have established backstory for homura and her family don't go retconning it.)
Except Kyubey isn't hostile to us. Not at this point, anyway. Nor is asking Kyubey's policies regarding lying and suchlike going to make him hostile.
Also:
ffffuuuuck that we are not experimenting on Kyubey in timestop. Wanna know why? because that would draw him into the timestop. Drawing Kyubey into timestop is bad, mkay?
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
FTFY
Don't anthropomorphise.
Also, timestop science on QB needs to wait until we manage to manipulate things without bringing them into timestop, which may well be impossible.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
I use him because Kyubey sounds male and it's easier to just type "him" than actively stop and change it to "it" when I'm referring to it. You know perfectly well who and what I'm talking about, so...
I'd say probably, seeing as the things that aren't brought into it are, well, stopped in time.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Even Homura uses 'he'.
- Location
- Borneo
Sabrina needs to try making Grief FOOF, or it's more fun name, Satan's kimchi.
The explosions she would make, the screams from Walpurgybutt as her face goes Kaboom....
Worth. It.
The explosions she would make, the screams from Walpurgybutt as her face goes Kaboom....
Worth. It.
Script Mak3r
(Verified Sun God) (Verified Feathers)
- Location
- Hell of Blazing Fires
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Just a thought: That omake I made earlier could be called The Centennial Festival for Magical Girls. 
Vivisection/Torture is still unethical even when done to an incubator.Honestly I find it to be completely irrelevant whether or not QB can directly lie. If we honestly think we can social a meaningfully informative statement out of him, it might then become relevant. But...
"It has been said that..."
Five words. Preface any piece of straight up bullshit with those five words, and... Yeah.
You'd have to hold him down and try to get him to give yes/no answers for the "can QB lie" debate to become relevant. In normal conversation, if we ask poorly worded questions we'll get bad or no info. If we ask well-worded questions QB can choose to give us helpful, useless, and/or potentially misleading answers. Or, he can choose to not answer at all if he feels that answering would be detrimental to his activities. QB to the best of our knowledge is not compelled to answer our questions.
Lying or not is irrelevant. The relevant part is whether we have some way to incentivize him to work with / aid us. That's it. If he feels it's in his interest to help us, he will. If he feels we're just another meguca / obstacle to madoka contracting, he will not help us. We have no way to compel him to help us, or to answer questions in a useful manner.
Helping with Oriko? In his interest. She can't witch if she gets her soul screwed up. I think.
No, I think a much more useful stratagem would be to experiment on QBs in timestop. Can we create grief tools to jack into its cognitive functions? Can we find the means by which it maintains the telepathy net? Can we detect its means of communication? Can we devise a way to intercept those communications?
This species feels no emotion. It is driven by cold logic and will not hesitate to ally with a former enemy if it views such an alliance as beneficial. If in the course of experimenting on QBs we find a way to cooperate beneficially with them, so as to generate an energy yield superior to their current methods without subjecting humans to the meguca system, we can "peace out" with the QBs at the drop of a hat. If we find that such a setup cannot exist, we would have had to aggress them eventually anyway. If we find that everything QB has lead us to believe is a lie, then we've gained something. And in any case, I truly believe that we're looking at a choice between trying to discern truths by ourselves, or asking hostile fucking aliens to be nice to us.
No. Just no. When it comes to the Hostile E.T., you do not "ask nicely."
You take it from their brain.
- Location
- Illinois
Science
I'ma assert that your trepidation on this subject is the product of insufficient planning rather than healthy caution. You state that we need to be able to manipulate things without pulling them into timestop in order to timestop science a QB, but in reality all we need to be able to do is cut the QB off from communication. There's probably other ways to achieve that, but further study is required, primarily in the field of telepathy.
But... You're right to object, because I didn't put enough work into planning, and, well... There's more we can do without a live specimen, much more.
The first thing we should do is subject a QBB (QB Body, the difference is relevant here and I need to remember that) to Kirika's antimagic. Or, failing that, enquire as to the predicted effects of doing so.
There's three possibilities. First, it does nothing to the QBB. Second, it disconnects the QBB from QB and either A: the QBB falls over or B: the QBB remains functional but can't commnicate with QB (drone vs platform). Third, the QBB reacts adversely, probably resulting in lethality. Of these, only the second would really be useful, and 2A much less so than 2b. But it costs us basically nothing. If we do end up with 2b, we suddenly have a way to isolate a QBB as per the first para of this post. 2A would be a massive insight into the function of telepathy, or QB comms, depending on whether QB primary comms are telepathy. 1 would say a lot about the relation between telepathy and magic, or it might establish differences between telepathy and QB comms, or... Well, a full negative is still informative. 3 would leave more questions than answers, unfortunately. But in any case, it's useful information for low cost.
After that, in some order...
Second, we should autopsy a QB. We should also ask Homura if she's already done this. I can't believe I didn't already suggest this, it's standard procedure. Anyway, these things somehow move, consume objects both grief and otherwise, and maintain an uplink to QB. What are they? Why can't normals see them? What can we learn from them? QB recovering dead QBBs suggests that dead QBBs are either a liability or that the materials composing them are inordinately valuable. The second possibility is enticing.
Third, we should make an attempt to detect the usage of telepathy, as telepathy is likely the same signalset that QB uses to connect to the QBBs. As QB famously was paraphrased, if we can detect it, we can do things to it. Or, at least, we can monitor it and potentially read it. This offers a (effort-intensive, perhaps) chance at getting in QB's head without necessitating a proper interrogation. I would suggest first trying to fashion a device that can detect whether someone is sending a telepathic message, maybe even just a device that detects somebody using magic. If we can do that, we can proceed by trying to isolate the method by which the device works. Telepathy itself must either work by sending information across space, or by sending information in a way that doesn't require travel through space. In the first case we should be able to detect it via interception. In the second, if nothing else we should be able to detect its reception in the form of abnormal neural responses... The language center firing when it shouldn't be, at a guess (am not a neuroperson). Or, perhaps, abnormal soul activity. Something has to change on the end node, at any rate, and something probably changes at the originating node as well.
Research into telepathy has innumerable possible uses. Admittedly, most of them are for infowar. But also general comms. Being able to use telepathy without a QB middleman would improve timestop utility, for instance.
Fourth, barring everything I just said under third, we should stick an antimagic ring on somebody and have them try to use telepathy. Some of the same reasons as first.
Apart from that subject matter entirely...
Enchanting. I'm a tad lost on where we are with it, exactly -- it seems to me we were able to use a grief based enhancer to create a permanent enchantment. Since other meguca are affected by our grief enhancers, I see two natural routes to proceed on from here:
1. While enhancement clearly isn't permanent, actions taken while enhanced should be recordable, even if somehow using enhancement doesn't build memories of performing at a higher level and therefore build the same enhanced skills through usage. Recordings can be referenced. Successful paths can be singled out, repeated.
2. We know that, per mortal coil 29, meguca have an affinity for enchantment related to their own powers. At some point, with enough diverse meguca, we should be able to use grief-based enhancers to create system/s for automating parts of the enchanting process, among other things. Even if it boils down to us having a large number of rocks, each with a specific effect, that should be enough for a rudimentary system of "push, then pull, then metal control in direction south-south-east, then fire at 150 C, then..."
2. A. Based on 2, it seems logical for us to try to enhance our powers (range! Range.) with enchantment. Something to prevent grief from dissipating? Attach to Phaser. Attach to sonic shower. Attach to arbitrary grief-fueled item.
...
Something to encourage grief to dissipate? Cough autocleanse cough. Potentially same for just pushing grief in a direction.
Depends on whether the QB is a platform or a drone. What we think of as a QB certainly isn't the QB itself. And it's not torture when it's done properly.
I'ma assert that your trepidation on this subject is the product of insufficient planning rather than healthy caution. You state that we need to be able to manipulate things without pulling them into timestop in order to timestop science a QB, but in reality all we need to be able to do is cut the QB off from communication. There's probably other ways to achieve that, but further study is required, primarily in the field of telepathy.
But... You're right to object, because I didn't put enough work into planning, and, well... There's more we can do without a live specimen, much more.
The first thing we should do is subject a QBB (QB Body, the difference is relevant here and I need to remember that) to Kirika's antimagic. Or, failing that, enquire as to the predicted effects of doing so.
There's three possibilities. First, it does nothing to the QBB. Second, it disconnects the QBB from QB and either A: the QBB falls over or B: the QBB remains functional but can't commnicate with QB (drone vs platform). Third, the QBB reacts adversely, probably resulting in lethality. Of these, only the second would really be useful, and 2A much less so than 2b. But it costs us basically nothing. If we do end up with 2b, we suddenly have a way to isolate a QBB as per the first para of this post. 2A would be a massive insight into the function of telepathy, or QB comms, depending on whether QB primary comms are telepathy. 1 would say a lot about the relation between telepathy and magic, or it might establish differences between telepathy and QB comms, or... Well, a full negative is still informative. 3 would leave more questions than answers, unfortunately. But in any case, it's useful information for low cost.
After that, in some order...
Second, we should autopsy a QB. We should also ask Homura if she's already done this. I can't believe I didn't already suggest this, it's standard procedure. Anyway, these things somehow move, consume objects both grief and otherwise, and maintain an uplink to QB. What are they? Why can't normals see them? What can we learn from them? QB recovering dead QBBs suggests that dead QBBs are either a liability or that the materials composing them are inordinately valuable. The second possibility is enticing.
Third, we should make an attempt to detect the usage of telepathy, as telepathy is likely the same signalset that QB uses to connect to the QBBs. As QB famously was paraphrased, if we can detect it, we can do things to it. Or, at least, we can monitor it and potentially read it. This offers a (effort-intensive, perhaps) chance at getting in QB's head without necessitating a proper interrogation. I would suggest first trying to fashion a device that can detect whether someone is sending a telepathic message, maybe even just a device that detects somebody using magic. If we can do that, we can proceed by trying to isolate the method by which the device works. Telepathy itself must either work by sending information across space, or by sending information in a way that doesn't require travel through space. In the first case we should be able to detect it via interception. In the second, if nothing else we should be able to detect its reception in the form of abnormal neural responses... The language center firing when it shouldn't be, at a guess (am not a neuroperson). Or, perhaps, abnormal soul activity. Something has to change on the end node, at any rate, and something probably changes at the originating node as well.
Research into telepathy has innumerable possible uses. Admittedly, most of them are for infowar. But also general comms. Being able to use telepathy without a QB middleman would improve timestop utility, for instance.
Fourth, barring everything I just said under third, we should stick an antimagic ring on somebody and have them try to use telepathy. Some of the same reasons as first.
Apart from that subject matter entirely...
Enchanting. I'm a tad lost on where we are with it, exactly -- it seems to me we were able to use a grief based enhancer to create a permanent enchantment. Since other meguca are affected by our grief enhancers, I see two natural routes to proceed on from here:
1. While enhancement clearly isn't permanent, actions taken while enhanced should be recordable, even if somehow using enhancement doesn't build memories of performing at a higher level and therefore build the same enhanced skills through usage. Recordings can be referenced. Successful paths can be singled out, repeated.
2. We know that, per mortal coil 29, meguca have an affinity for enchantment related to their own powers. At some point, with enough diverse meguca, we should be able to use grief-based enhancers to create system/s for automating parts of the enchanting process, among other things. Even if it boils down to us having a large number of rocks, each with a specific effect, that should be enough for a rudimentary system of "push, then pull, then metal control in direction south-south-east, then fire at 150 C, then..."
2. A. Based on 2, it seems logical for us to try to enhance our powers (range! Range.) with enchantment. Something to prevent grief from dissipating? Attach to Phaser. Attach to sonic shower. Attach to arbitrary grief-fueled item.
...
Something to encourage grief to dissipate? Cough autocleanse cough. Potentially same for just pushing grief in a direction.
Depends on whether the QB is a platform or a drone. What we think of as a QB certainly isn't the QB itself. And it's not torture when it's done properly.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
It's canonically possible to isolate a single QB node from the main hivemind - it's how Juubey got made in PMKM. This is another reason to go to Asunaro sooner rather than later.
- Location
- Illinois
How was it done?
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I haven't actually read Kazumi Magica, so if I'm off, hopefully someone who has will correct me. But my understanding is that they basically used applied necromancy - killed a QBB, causing it to disconnect from the network, before reviving and reprogramming it.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Right, it wasn't meaningfully Kyubey; it'd be like animating a corpse and putting an entirely new soul in it, which is basically what they did.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Here's a thought. Grief that leaves our control range doesn't dissipate instantly - it tries to clump together. We're mostly thinking of examining this to see what the 'natural' properties of grief are, but this phenomenon might have a more practical application as well - namely, grief projectiles moving at high speeds might remain coherent long enough to reach their target.
It would be all but useless against witches, but it would greatly increase our effective engagement range in meguca combat, and be far more versatile than trying to use actual physical projectiles accelerated with grief the same way.
So if and when we do our science testing with Mumi, we should try a grief railgun with a grief bullet and see what the range is like.
It would be all but useless against witches, but it would greatly increase our effective engagement range in meguca combat, and be far more versatile than trying to use actual physical projectiles accelerated with grief the same way.
So if and when we do our science testing with Mumi, we should try a grief railgun with a grief bullet and see what the range is like.
bird_poison
Knowing their wrath, unfettered and raw
- Location
- margarita
Experimenting with an incubator body has a slight drawback: It reveals our interest in acquiring such information. That on itself can be extremely dangerous, since it points to a desire to act outside our virtual bounds.
To make an autopsy should be easy: Homura has shot the bodies before, we only need to ask for one or more.
To test the anti-magic effects, we can organize a 'sparring' session with Kirika, and the she would "casually" create a field in proximity to the incubator's body.
Creating a telepathy detector does not need to include the incubator at first, and can be used for passive detection later.
And I still have this hunchy hunch that we should really test what happens when we release stupid amounts of grief into the atmosphere. To see what it does and what happens to it.
UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Greenhouse effect.
[] Hey coobie, if I wanted a stuffed coobie to mount on my wall, how would you recommend I preserve your body?
Firn has been unusually active in discussion lately.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
OH OH... feed QB a fake marble... its full of FOOF.
Balduran
Smuggest Plague-Bearer
- Location
- a quiet, rainy place
FTFYGriefhouse effect.
- Location
- Illinois
Well, that's pretty much useless :/
Make sure to tilt barrel down. Gun safety 101.
Testing what happens when we release grief into the atmosphere is, uh... Let's keep it small-scale, okay? Dissipate an artificially density-increased marble into a closed system.
It's a good sign. Means he's more attracted to the quest. /speculation
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Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
[] You're able to replace bodies easily, right? Would you be willing to donate your body to science?