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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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FlatlineAskari said:
Do not mistake that for common ground. It makes contracts for the sole, express purpose of harvesting our remains when they kill us. It sometimes gives honest answers so that when it gives dishonest answers, they will more likely be believed, and consequently get us killed. It acts so as to appear benign, right up to the point at which it ceases to appear benign, at which point you usually die.
Yes, it sometimes looks all reasonable. We know this is misdirection, because it's goal-directed, we know what its goal is, and it isn't friendly in the slightest.
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Also Exhibit A for Incubators not even being trustworthy to act out of enlightened self-interest is Rebellion, where it cheerfully broke an existing and functional system in the interests of increased power production and Homura explicitly stated it was incapable of non-goal directed curiosity or idle chatter.

Kyubey is the enemy, and it's an enemy we can't defeat conventionally. Handle with care, minimize interaction, and counter it by working to change the conditions that let it do what it does.
 
UbeOne said:
[x] Throw Kyubey out of the house. Do not give him a chance to say anything.
[x] Hug Mami. Make sure that she is all right.
[x] Make those Grief privacy rings. Give them to everyone.
[x] Make an anti-Kyubey field generator, made out of Grief.
[x] Assist Mami and Kirika wherever possible.
[x] Diagnose Oriko's sickness using a magic boosted Grief book.
[x] More enchantment practice and experimentation.
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Made a few changes.

 
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Ugolino said:
You're treating Kyubey like its actions can be taken at face value, as though it's ever been completely honest at any point in the series (three specific instances aside- when Madoka made her wish and it was surprised, when the universe was being rewritten, and after Homura took over), and like it's human. That's exactly what it wants. What it's designed to do.
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Okay, I think you're moving wildly away from what we've seen in PMMM and PMAS and into your own interpretation of Kyubey's character. A valid one, but not one I agree with. For me, computers don't have the kind of curiosity Kyubey does, or repsects in others.

Kyubeys always answers the questions asked - to the extent of the question and no further, but honestly. It even says "You humans don't ask the right questions." In this quest, it has displayed a great deal of curiosity unrelated to its main goal, and respected it in others. Not like a computer at all.

If Kyubey were really a computer only concerned about efficiency, it could easily take a more active hand in driving girls to despair than it does.

FlatlineAskari said:
Yes, it sometimes looks all reasonable. We know this is misdirection, because it's goal-directed, we know what its goal is, and it isn't friendly in the slightest.
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Give me one time when Kyubey lies. Directly. I'm not talking about human standards, I'm talking about telling a direct falsehood in response to a question asked. I don't think you're right about the reason Kyubey answers questions.

And yes, we know its main goal - saving the universe. We know it has a fairly utilitarian perspective. We know it gives girls a chance to wish for what they want before they're killed for the sake of the universe. I'm not saying it's a good thing. But they could probably have shoved girls into the equivalent of a magic meat grinder and achieved the same effect.

There's an excellent post I'm trying to find which explains the Incubators actions in Rebellion as a twisted but moral way of extending Homura's life AND doing science.

They're not nice. They're alien and incredibly dangerous. But they're not implacable and evil and avoiding talking will have bad consequences for us.
 
[X] Truegolino

I don't think kyubey and human become freind or even ally will be a thing unless we have girl on our side wishing for it.
 
SystemicHatter said:
Okay, I think you're moving wildly away from what we've seen in PMMM and PMAS and into your own interpretation of Kyubey's character. A valid one, but not one I agree with. For me, computers don't have the kind of curiosity Kyubey does, or repsects in others.

Kyubeys always answers the questions asked - to the extent of the question and no further, but honestly. It even says "You humans don't ask the right questions." In this quest, it has displayed a great deal of curiosity unrelated to its main goal, and respected it in others. Not like a computer at all.

If Kyubey were really a computer only concerned about efficiency, it could easily take a more active hand in driving girls to despair than it does.



Give me one time when Kyubey lies. Directly. I'm not talking about human standards, I'm talking about telling a direct falsehood in response to a question asked. I don't think you're right about the reason Kyubey answers questions.

And yes, we know its main goal - saving the universe. We know it has a fairly utilitarian perspective. We know it gives girls a chance to wish for what they want before they're killed for the sake of the universe. I'm not saying it's a good thing. But they could probably have shoved girls into the equivalent of a magic meat grinder and achieved the same effect.

There's an excellent post I'm trying to find which explains the Incubators actions in Rebellion as a twisted but moral way of extending Homura's life AND doing science.

They're not nice. They're alien and incredibly dangerous. But they're not implacable and evil and avoiding talking will have bad consequences for us.
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Again, I can't take it at face value when he says "you didn't ask the right questions" because we only have Kyubey's word for him being honest. Kyubey doesn't respect anyone or anything except its own goal of saving the universe.

Kyoko on "can she be saved". That was a flat out lie by implication since as far as he knows, magic may be bullshit but it's NEVER done that before and he had no reason to think it could and every reason that it couldn't. He intentionally chose to answer the question in such a way as to obscure that fact, ie: deception.

It's already fairly active in causing that behind the scenes and at the end of the day, its system is heartlessly efficient. It's had millennia to work out the best way to get grief seeds farmed/girls to despair. This would probably be it. Arguably with grief seeds as infinite power generators, it doesn't need to cut out the middleman...but if it could do so? It probably would.

If they have a more efficient way of getting magic/delicious grief, they will take it. Rebellion. Any "Homura life extension" really is a sidenote to them and a means to an end. Even in that conversation, he's trying and failing to manipulate Homura due to not knowing her full backstory.

Kyubey is the single biggest threat to us, and yes, that includes Feathers. Feathers is a problem to solve, Kyubey is an active antagonist constantly working against us.
 
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Eh, I give up. The stream of "let's kill the bunnycat in interesting ways" gets a bit demoralising. :p

Thanks for the discussion, as always. :)
 
[q] "Hey, heard you were talkin' shit about me like I wouldn't find out.
[q] luckily for you, we're in the middle of something, so I'll postpone your judgement.
[q] Now, just one question before I forcefully remove you from the premises:
-[q] did you approach Sayaka after the witch, or did she call for you?
[q] your response will affect at which speed and in how many pieces you depart."
[q] capture rodent in grief, prepare for launch
[q] "-and FYI: showing up uninvited is quite rude. I wouldn't make a habit of it."
[q] Fire Gerbil Cannon.

What's that? I'm being needlessly provoking and thus incentivising the rat to up its smear campaign?

Nonsense, that is the very soul of politeness! *wide eyes of innocence deployed*

On a serious note, is it worth shoving like a third of our ridiculous stockpile of grief down its gullet before giving it the boot?
Edit* griefdump ninja'd by @........ -super slow typing = orz

I do worry that we'll need to get rid of some grief one day and then it blabs to Mami that we keep inviting it over (so to speak) ala the cliched failure to communicate leading to dramatic misunderstanding.

Low probability given the difference in trust Mami has between us and QB but still, why risk it?
 
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You know, I have the feeling that if we keep rejecting Kyubey so violently, so pointidly, on a consistent basis, eventually that will have repercussions worse than if we engage it cautiously.

That's no excuse to be "buddy-buddy" with it of course, but should we really amount to "punt it" every time we see it?
 
techsy730 said:
You know, I have the feeling that if we keep rejecting Kyubey so violently, so pointidly, on a consistent basis, eventually that will have repercussions worse than if we engage it cautiously.

That's no excuse to be "buddy-buddy" with it of course, but should we really amount to "punt it" every time we see it?
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Thing is...Kyubey isn't going to seek revenge. It doesn't do that. Any "anger" or "annoyance" it might seem to show is an act, basically. Normally, a reason not to provoke someone is that they'll respond with anger, but for bunnycat, we know it's incapable of it and it does and will always want us dead anyway, so not like its opinion of us would change.

We can't outwit it, we can't come out on top in conversation, so the best thing to do is to not engage it and to shut it down when it tries. Especially when it tries, since that's when we KNOW it's trying to pull something that inevitably leads to our messy death and Madoka contracting.
 
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The problem with kicking it out without at least finding out why it came is that we won't know why it came. You don't have to answer anything, just take it into another room and grill it. Metaphorically. And maybe literally, we'll have to check Oriko's fridge for good sauces.
 
........ said:
The problem with kicking it out without at least finding out why it came is that we won't know why it came. You don't have to answer anything, just take it into another room and grill it. Metaphorically. And maybe literally, we'll have to check Oriko's fridge for good sauces.
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Thing is...that's exactly why its here. To talk. To get us to do what it wants, be it revealing information or telling us things to get us to take action it wants.

I, um, really don't want to play along with Kyubey since...we're not going to win that guessing game. We really, really aren't. :o

On the subject of grief- yes we need to give Kyubey some but it can wait for later, I think.

[q]Play this song with grief instruments
[q]Remove incubator.
 
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rikalous said:
For the less tabletop-savvy who don't want to go hunt it down, FATAL's generally considered the worst tabletop RPG in existence. Its strongest competition for the title is explicitly, cartoonishly racist and literally impossible to play. As in, it doesn't have the mechanics to determine if a character landed an attack. And that's not enough to definitively dethrone FATAL.
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Way too late but considering its reputation, i guees you could say that FATAL live in dire state.
 
[X] Make an Aperture Science-like robotic arm (no Grief trance).
-[X] Pick up Kyuubey and throw it out the premises.
-[X] "Don't come back."
 
I'm with hatter, for what it's worth. The massive support for doing anything other than talking to it clearly comes from paranoia rather than reason.

QB can be harmful... To other people. If he drops, say, the witchbomb.

I'm very certain that there's nothing that QB could say to us, privately, 1 on 1, that would have anywhere near an effect that we don't choose to allow.

That is to say, any information it gives us only influences us to the extent that we, the voters, choose to allow it. We can choose not to follow it's advice.

It should be rather easy to turn this situation to our advantage, but you've built up this legend around it to the point where it legitimately scares you, and all reason vanishes to make room for the desperate, panicked thought of 'go away!'.

At least, that's how it feels to me.
 
redzonejoe said:
I'm with hatter, for what it's worth. The massive support for doing anything other than talking to it clearly comes from paranoia rather than reason.

QB can be harmful... To other people. If he drops, say, the witchbomb.

I'm very certain that there's nothing that QB could say to us, privately, 1 on 1, that would have anywhere near an effect that we don't choose to allow.

That is to say, any information it gives us only influences us to the extent that we, the voters, choose to allow it. We can choose not to follow it's advice.

It should be rather easy to turn this situation to our advantage, but you've built up this legend around it to the point where it legitimately scares you, and all reason vanishes to make room for the desperate, panicked thought of 'go away!'.

At least, that's how it feels to me.
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Kyubey's entire character is around dropping misinformation and playing a long con- even with people who should know better. I don't fancy our odds of winning a round of Q&A with it and that goes double for when it actively wants to do so.
 
[X] Hug the Mumi.
[X]"Antimagic is hard to replicate...I don't suppose you know why Oriko's Soul is looking like a Klein Bottle, do you Incubator?"

Sadly, he's the ACTUAL local Soul expert.

I'm willing to try to get info out of the bastard, risky though it is.
 
Higure said:
[X] Hug the Mumi.
[X]"Antimagic is hard to replicate...I don't suppose you know why Oriko's Soul is looking like a Klein Bottle, do you Incubator?"

Sadly, he's the ACTUAL local Soul expert.
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Why would he give information that would make the Oriko situation better? Misinformation or non-answers are much more likely.
 
Ugolino said:
Why would he give information that would make the Oriko situation better? Misinformation or non-answers are much more likely.
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Starting a dialogue here, not finishing it. If he does know, then we can work on establishing some form of contractual agreement. Kyubey's a bunnycat bastard, but he does understand things like ethical business deals.
 
Higure said:
Starting a dialogue here, not finishing it. If he does know, then we can work on establishing some form of contractual agreement. Kyubey's a bunnycat bastard, but he does understand things like ethical business deals.
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He...doesn't? That's the whole root of the thing- he either pretends or legitimately doesn't get why humans think he's unethical.

And I consider a fair agreement with him impossible.
 
Higure said:
Starting a dialogue here, not finishing it. If he does know, then we can work on establishing some form of contractual agreement. Kyubey's a bunnycat bastard, but he does understand things like ethical business deals.
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'ethical'
I'm not so sure, but I think he'd probably stand by an agreement we make.
 
Ugolino said:
He...doesn't? That's the whole root of the thing- he either pretends or legitimately doesn't get why humans think he's unethical.

And I consider a fair agreement with him impossible.
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He does understand ethics, he just doesn't get humans. Why does the location of your Soul matter? It's a triviality, to his mind, just like suffering: He's literally never experienced it, so he can't possibly understand why converting positive energy to negative energy (Hope to Despair) is something to worry about. It's efficient, and humans are silly beings who get upset over something like Grief and Suffering. What do those matter, anyway?

On the other hand, he has no trouble understanding that it's important to faithfully complete contracts: It's what he built the entire Meguca System on.
 
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