Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Guilop · Oct 5, 2015

The current vote seems a bit short.
Shouldn't we include talking about Sayaka's sudden case of magical girlness somewhere?
That and Oriko's klein bottle soul are the biggest immediate problems we need to handle.

To be honest that foreign megucas will arrive to check, if the rumors about the grief girl are true isn't really that surprising.
I'm more surprsied that we haven't heard anything from the poeple we met during the Sendai conflict.
Tokyo girl Ueda and the Fukushima group could be intimidated, but the Ishinomaki group should also know about our grief powers, since they are close to the University group. There could be a lot of negotiations in our near future.

AuraTwilight · Oct 5, 2015

Sereg said:
I disagree with this interpretation, but nevermind.

It's not really up to interpretation. Wraiths eat people's capacity to feel emotions. Wraiths form out of ambient negative emotions of normal humans. Ergo, if Magical Girls don't exist, Wraiths would eventually destroy all emotions in the human species.

Slith10 · Oct 5, 2015

Sereg said:
Right. Thank you everyone. I'm feeling a bit better, even though my opinion hasn't changed. Sorry, I normally try to not bum people out by revealing what I actually think about stuff.

[x] Onmur

Close enough to what I want.

I disagree with this interpretation, but nevermind.

Agree to disagree.

Well, yes.

No. I'm advocating cutting off a limb that can't be saved and is threatening the rest of the body.

Playing the game at all is a problem. I don't want a game changer. I want a game ender.

Except, she isn't if we can't make witching impossible. Madoka is. Sabrina exists instead of Madokami, and if we can't do comparably to her, it means that the tragedy of the witch system is our fault.

No. I want to burn the world down because nothing remotely good at all can be built ever. There is not a single thing about the magical girl system that doesn't utterly disgust me on every level. Its existence is an abomination and anathema to me. Literally the end of all is existence s preferable in every way.

Except that the situation we're discussing is one where preventing withing out is impossible, so they will never be unencumbered that way.

PMCA?

Understood.

Even assuming we can, it's a bandaid at best. Because Kyuubey will prevent us from doing so at least most of the time. Even when we succeed, it just means that they will witchout again (probably permanently this time) or die.

Again, we're talking about a situation where this is beyond our power.

Sorry.

This is a decent explanation, yes. My bran doesn't produce enough serotonin for me to remain in a positive state.

This is a good point though.

I disagree with this inherently, but perhaps I should put in more effort to remember that other people are capable of happiness.

Agreed.

EDIT: Fetching her is all well and good, but ow do we find her? (Unless we can make a grief construct that does it)

Ehhh, you can consider the absence of pain/etc to be a form of happiness, I go by if someone around me is happy, I'm happy too. (Woo, Empathy)

On topic though, worst case is that we may not win, but we can definitely take the first guy who tries to knife us down with us (metaphorically speaking) and if Homura is still there we might possibly get to try again with another Mitakihara.
At worst of worst, we are getting better at personal skill, which will carry over with us.
(Kinda Negative line of thought here though, I'm sure Firnagzen isn't going to screw us over as horrifically badly as he can think of.)

Imrix · Oct 5, 2015

[X] RexHeller

On a practical level, I approve of showing Mami we can be overwhelmed. Plus... It's barely lunch, and it's been a day.

Sereg said:
No. I'm advocating cutting off a limb that can't be saved and is threatening the rest of the body.

I flatly disagree that this is in any way an accurate assessment.

Apart from anything else, on a meta level it runs counter to the premise of this quest. Sabrina is a game-changer, somebody inserted into the magical girl system with the potential to change the entire system. Our mere existence creates that idea that you can wish for Grief control when magical girl recruiters explicitly exist, presumably with some capacity to influence who wishes for what. If you were talking about canon PMMM you might have a point, although even then Madokami is a thing. But this isn't canon PMMM, it's PMAS, where the system very definitely can be overturned.

For pete's sake, it's right there in the name - Adfligo Systema, Strike Down [the] System.

You're asserting as certainties things like "meguca we dewitch will witchout again, possibly permanently" and "Kyuubey will stop us in most cases" when these seem to me no more than baseless speculation. Educated guesstimates at best.

You're foretelling inevitable doom right when the inevitable-doom-averting hero has turned up, in a story about being the inevitable-doom-averting-hero. I am entirely baffled by this.

MrLZRS · Oct 5, 2015

[X] Onmur

Sereg · Oct 5, 2015

AuraTwilight said:
It's not really up to interpretation. Wraiths eat people's capacity to feel emotions. Wraiths form out of ambient negative emotions of normal humans. Ergo, if Magical Girls don't exist, Wraiths would eventually destroy all emotions in the human species.

If this were true, it woukld have already happened before the Incubators discovered our planet. Wraiths are here because Madokami put them here. So that:

A: Meguca have something to fight

B: Incubators have a similar way to recruit meguca and a way of collecting energy

C: Because she decided that it was better for humanity overall than having neither meguca nor something for them to fight (personally, I believe that tehy're made of negative emotions humans would have felt anyway and that having them form and be killed is better than having the negative emotion fester without release)

Imrix said:
I flatly disagree that this is in any way an accurate assessment.

Apart from anything else, on a meta level it runs counter to the premise of this quest. Sabrina is a game-changer, somebody inserted into the magical girl system with the potential to change the entire system. Our mere existence creates that idea that you can wish for Grief control when magical girl recruiters explicitly exist, presumably with some capacity to influence who wishes for what. If you were talking about canon PMMM you might have a point, although even then Madokami is a thing. But this isn't canon PMMM, it's PMAS, where the system very definitely can be overturned.

For pete's sake, it's right there in the name - Adfligo Systema, Strike Down [the] System.

This is why I think that we can make witching impossible. Because if we can't, the premise of the quest is wrong.

You're asserting as certainties things like "meguca we dewitch will witchout again, permanently" and "Kyuubey will stop us in most cases" when these seem to me no more than baseless speculation. Educated guesstimates at best.

One of exactly two things can happen to a meguca. She can witch or die. There is zero alternative. So, assuming she witches, and assuming we dewitch her, it simply returns her to the begining, meaning that she is once again going to witch or die. Every. Single. Time. Until she dies or we don't dewitch her. It's completely impossible for this to not be true given the premises we're working witch. This means that they are utterly unsavable.

As fo Kyuubey, do you really think he won't intervene should we start messing up his system? Do you really think we stand a chance of stopping him? This is under the assumption that we can't fight them, remember?

You're foretelling inevitable doom right when the inevitable-doom-averting hero has turned up, in a story about being the inevitable-doom-averting-hero. I am entirely baffled by this.

Because if we can't making witching impossible, Sabrina isn't "the inevitable-doom-averting hero" no matter what anyone else claims.

UbeOne · Oct 5, 2015

No one knows if dewitching is possible. But then again, no one else wished for grief control...

Sereg · Oct 5, 2015

UbeOne said:
No one knows if dewitching is possible. But then again, no one else wished for grief control...

We don't know if dewitching is possible. What I'm saying is that even if dewitching is possible, it's not remotely enough to stop the system from sucking royally.

Imrix · Oct 5, 2015

Sereg said:
If this were true, it would have already happened before the Incubators discovered our planet.

Is there any reason to assume it didn't?

Sereg said:
One of exactly two things can happen to a meguca. She can witch or die. There is zero alternative.

I disagree that these are the only options, and frankly I disagree that these are wholly damning fates even if they are the only options. If we can get dewitching working, witching out might become a comparatively brief inconvenience - if a meguca can live for a hundred years, a few days here or there as a witch is no more than a shitty week in a life well lived.

That aside, those are the only options we've seen so far. That does not mean they're the only possibilities. We might be able to crush the possibility of witching out to begin with - there's only one way to find out, and killing everybody is emphatically not it.

Sereg said:
As of Kyuubey, do you really think he won't intervene should we start messing up his system?

Depending on how we mess up his system... Sure, why not? The Incubators want energy. To suggest one possibility, if the infinite grief that Sabrina's cleansing represents outweighs the energy of witchouts, why should Kyuubey care to oppose us?

As for fighting them... I don't know. Too many unknowns. What kind of society do the Incubators have, are there political factions we can appeal to? Is koobs a high-level operative with state backing to quash resistance if any arises, or analogous to a worker drone who'll cut his losses if things get too far off-model? There's all sorts of unanswered questions here. It's pointless, I would say it's actively detrimental, to get too hung up on this until we have some solid information.

Redshirt Army · Oct 5, 2015

UbeOne said:
No one knows if dewitching is possible.

I hate harping on this point, because as Ugo so elegantly put it, Asunaro really is meguca Ravenholm, but we know dewitching is possible as a fact, because a bunch of lunatics very nearly pulled it off!

Honestly, the fact that a group of crazies managed to make that much progress at coincidentally nearly the same time that the main PMMM story runs suggests to me that dewitching isn't that hard, and that historically a number of people have managed it. (Wasn't Kyuubey's exact quote that nobody ever tried to turn a witch back into a human being? Defining "Magical Girl" as not being human makes more sense to me than Kyoko being the first one to ever make the attempt...)

This is good in that it suggests our goal is attainable, but is also bad in that it means Kyuubey clearly has a system in place for dealing with it when it comes up.

Imrix · Oct 5, 2015

I mean frankly, I've been kind of assuming the Good End for this quest will involve Griefteching our way to practical dewitching along with a few other bits, socialhaxing to proliferate those advantages to a progressively wider network of meguca via Plan Mitakihara Meguca Motel or something like it, then leveraging those advances in conversation with Koobs to get him on our side on the basis that an infinitely renewable energy source is, uh, exactly what they're looking for.

Sereg · Oct 5, 2015

Imrix said:
It's entirely possible it did.

In which case, there would be no one hear when they came.

I disagree that these are the only options,

Ah! Then it seems that you are misunderstanding my position. I am reffering to the case (and only the case) where it turns out that they are the only two optionsand it is literally impossible for us to change that.

and frankly I disagree that these are wholly damning fates even if they are the only options. If we can get dewitching working, witching out might become a comparatively brief inconvenience - if a meguca can live for a hundred years, a few days here or there as a witch is no more than a shitty week in a life well lived.

I don't see it that way. But again, this might be due to my inabilityto imagine extended happiness.

That aside, those are the only options we've seen so far. That does not mean they're the only possibilities. We might be able to crush the possibility of witching out to begin with - there's only one way to find out, and killing everybody is emphatically not it.

See above. I believe that this is the case. I'm talking about the situation where it isn't.

Depending on how we mess up his system... Sure, why not? The Incubators want energy. To suggest one possibility, if the infinite grief that Sabrina's cleansing represents outweighs the energy of witchouts, why should Kyuubey care to oppose us?

Well, I believe that if that were the case, it would've been implimented already.

As for fighting them... I don't know. Too many unknowns. What kind of society do the Incubators have, are there political factions we can appeal to? Is koobs a high-level operative with state backing to quash resistance if any arises, or analogous to a worker drone who'll cut his losses if things get too far off-model? There's all sorts of unanswered questions here. It's pointless, I would say it's actively detrimental, to get too hung up on this until we have some solid information.

Again, this is under the assumption that we cannot affect them

Imrix · Oct 5, 2015

Sereg said:
In which case, there would be no one hear when they came.

Or maybe humanity struggled by, just about. Who knows!

Sereg said:
Ah! Then it seems that you are misunderstanding my position. I am reffering to the case (and only the case) where it turns out that they are the only two optionsand it is literally impossible for us to change that.

And... The point of this, "what if we're just screwed" thought exercise is... ?

Sereg said:
Well, I believe that if that were the case, it would've been implemented already.

What do you base this on? The incubators have been at this for a while, but we know our potential was odd, and I seem to recall our Wish was noted as very nonstandard. It seems entirely possible to me that we're breaking new ground.

Onmur · Oct 5, 2015

Anybody thinking about fighting the Incubators, keep in mind that they can control Grief better than we do in some ways.

FlatlineAskari said:
If we wait for the european to show up,
- It means there'll probably be others arriving around the same time, so we'll have a lot else on our plate,
- It means Oriko's got soul-gem weirdness going on for a week,
- It means her sense of pain has to be disabled for a week, and
- We lack the initiative when the meeting does happen.
I'd suggest we take a trip to proactively recruit her, fairly soon. We can move fast, it shouldn't be too much trouble.

How about we ask Oriko how Euroguca is arriving to the country and wait for here there? For example, if she's coming by plane, we could be waiting at the airport, like all normal people do when expecting somebody.

Guilop said:
The current vote seems a bit short.

I think so too. I don't know what to add at this point, though, so it might just come to a short update.

Shouldn't we include talking about Sayaka's sudden case of magical girlness somewhere?
That and Oriko's klein bottle soul are the biggest immediate problems we need to handle.

But I think we should wait until everybody's settled before deciding how we're gonna tackle this.

I'm more surprsied that we haven't heard anything from the poeple we met during the Sendai conflict.
Tokyo girl Ueda and the Fukushima group could be intimidated, but the Ishinomaki group should also know about our grief powers, since they are close to the University group. There could be a lot of negotiations in our near future.

We're supposed to contact them first.

Loktarogar · Oct 5, 2015

No we should act imposing, and intimidating, cause everytime we act like that everything went alright

o3o · Oct 5, 2015

Sereg said:
PMCA?

Series of omakes where Sabrina is (pretending) a super-hammy villain.

Onmur · Oct 5, 2015

Loktarogar said:
No we should act imposing, and intimidating, cause everytime we act like that everything went alright

I'd take intimidating when we have a potential enemy with ill-defined but scary sounding powers.

Sereg · Oct 5, 2015

Imrix said:
Or maybe humanity struggled by, just about. Who knows!
And... The point of this, "what if we're just screwed" thought exercise is... ?

To piont out that in that situation, we are just screwed. So, it cannot be the case, despite the fact that some people claim that this is the case.

What do you base this on? The incubators have been at this for a while, but we know our potential was odd, and I seem to recall our Wish was noted as very nonstandard. It seems entirely possible to me that we're breaking new ground.

I base it on the fact taht not onlyhave they beendoing it fora while, they rapidly adapt to new ideas.

o3o said:
Series of omakes where Sabrina is (pretending) a super-hammy villain.

Oh! That! Yes, i'm very unlike that. In the situation I'm reffering to. I'd be the opposite of hammy. I'd probably be crying. (And I'm terrible at being deceitful)

UbeOne · Oct 5, 2015

Still, we should pursue dewitching, because every little improvement (for the Megucas) to the system counts. It's like lighting candles in the dark...

Imrix · Oct 5, 2015

Sereg said:
To piont out that in that situation, we are just screwed. So, it cannot be the case, despite the fact that some people claim that this is the case.

Fair enough.

Sereg said:
I base it on the fact taht not onlyhave they beendoing it fora while, they rapidly adapt to new ideas.

Okay, but that doesn't mean they've thought of everything, or encountered all possibilities. Heck, they're still searching for a solution so they clearly haven't. Further, we haven't exactly given Koobs ample opportunity to observe us first-hand. He's got limited information to adapt to - I'm not suggesting we change that, either.

Guilop · Oct 5, 2015

Onmur said:
I think so too. I don't know what to add at this point, though, so it might just come to a short update.

But I think we should wait until everybody's settled before deciding how we're gonna tackle this.

"Hey Sayaka, how about some training to make sure you aren't dying a horrible death in the near future?"

I think it could be good for Mami, if we let her handle most of Sayaka's basic training.
Our grief powers are quite a bit different from the norm and Mami has past experience with mentoring others. She did this before and knows how to help new maghical girls. She probably will also be able to help Sayaka make the best of her powers, since she is able to make fricking rifles from ribbons.

Onmur · Oct 5, 2015

Guilop said:
I think it could be good for Mami, if we let her handle most of Sayaka's basic training.
Our grief powers are quite a bit different from the norm and Mami has past experience with mentoring others. She did this before and knows how to help new maghical girls. She probably will also be able to help Sayaka make the best of her powers, since she is able to make fricking rifles from ribbons.

Mami: *Sitting down leaning against Sabrina*

Sabrina: "Well... Look on the bright side!"

Mami: *Dull stare*

Sabrina: "Sayaka and Kyouko make a really cute couple!"

Mami: *Buries face in Sabrina's shoulder*

Sabrina: "You know, now that you somehow alienated Sayaka into moving over to Kasam-"

Homura: *Covers Sabrina's mouth with her hand*

Guilop · Oct 5, 2015

Onmur said:
Mami: *Sitting down leaning against Sabrina*

Sabrina: "Well... Look on the bright side!"

Mami: *Dull stare*

Sabrina: "Sayaka and Kyouko make a really cute couple!"

Mami: *Buries face in Sabrina's shoulder*

Sabrina: "You know, now that you somehow alienated Sayaka into moving over to Kasam-"

Homura: *Covers Sabrina's mouth with her hand*

I actually considered that, but now that there's a soul gem cleansing service in town, the chance that she'll alienate Sayka in the same way as Kyouko, Masami and the one Ishinomaki girl is pretty low.
As a bonus Sayaka also is a sparkling Hero of Justice, so there shouldn't be any problems with Mami's insistence to hunt familiars.

Firnagzen · Oct 5, 2015

Onmur said:
Just to make sure, @Firnagzen, did the Anti-Pain Ring disappear by the time we got back to Kirika with Oriko's disconnected Soul Gem?

Yes.

RexHeller · Oct 5, 2015

So I just realized a good analogy. Everybody who's argueing about what the end game is? You guys are like the little voice in Sabrina's head that's constantly worrying about the future and things she can't control. If that's the case she's probably feeling very anxious right now. I'd say, for now give, the conversation a rest. We don't know enough about grief, magic, souls, the incubators and how they work right now to plan out how to break the system. For now it's okay to just run around being the spanner that works. As we go we'll pick up tools, allies, and most importantly knowledge on how the system works. Once we understand what we're dealing with then we can break the system.

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

I'm happy

The Sorcerer of Smiles

Back from the dead and ready to party!

Periodically Malevolent QM

Good Riddance

Banned Forever

Daydreaming CPU

Banned Forever

Periodically Malevolent QM

Cannon Fodder

Periodically Malevolent QM

Banned Forever

Periodically Malevolent QM

Archangel of Nutella.

The Apex of Cuddling

DAMN YOU PACHINKO

Archangel of Nutella.

Banned Forever

Daydreaming CPU

Periodically Malevolent QM

I'm happy

Archangel of Nutella.

I'm happy

Title Incoming. Please Hold.