Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

[boonerunner]

Who else in the thread is gonna start acting like their avatars?

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I could suggest that we resolve the situation by summoning a comically oversized bathtub drain. But that's rather situational and I doubt that this particular situation calls for it. We could hit Ono over the head with it, but (as satisfying as that might be) it wouldn't be terribly productive.

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Ugolino and Muramasa want to talk to Ono, but those votes basically boil down to an infodump that won't help because Ono isn't listening right now. I liked Sereg's idea of shocking her into listening by showing her the Lichbomb, but that doesn't seem to have enough support. So instead I will go with SynchronizedWritersBlock's approach of waiting patiently for Ono to calm down before telling her the things we need to say. In-story we have the time, and as long as the thread is patient, this approach should (eventually) work.

[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock

 

[Lordsservent]

[X]SynchronizedWritersBlock

 

[Gadjo]

[X] Ugolino

 

[Lord Marshal]

Oko isn't ready for the responcibility of being a magical girl, and I think she's made that quite clear. Also, we have wasted our chance to show we are in control considering we just calmly ignored her arguments and walked into her bedroom. We are acting like an authority that is trying to be polite (I dealt with that often growing up), I just think it's time to stop being polite and show her that she doesn't get to negotiate or tell us what to do.

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Of course she isn't ready.
No one could be ready for being a magical girl.
The problem is that we are not an authority.
We are a stranger.
If you are talking with a teenageer and say "i'm right! we don't negotiate and you shut up, you can't tell me what i do".
We are only a stranger with more power that say what she can or can't do.
And no one would listen to that, teen or adult.
You can use that type or reasoning when you have something more than simple physical leverage.
If that someone respect you/you are a figure of respect and order they will think about why you are doing this and if they are wrong.
We are a girl that think to know everything while she is still the same age as Ono and that broke in her house when she wanted to be alone.
On the two I would say "WTF? get out of here you crazy meguca! who the hell you think to be to broke in my house by force and then tying me up when i have want you out of here because i'm pretty much having a nervous collapse and you still appeared from nothing and probably listened to all my private problems!"
I don't think that in this situation saying "I'm stronger and you are nothing to me" will be good.

 

[TJSomething]

[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock

I think that SWB's vote is too soft and Ugo's is too hard, but I'm picking SWB because I think trying to talk her down is a safer option that allows for escalation to something as harsh as Ugo's vote. I think that the crony comment probably should be responded to, for the sake of Mami and Homura, but only in passing, since I don't really want Ono to focus on it too much.

 

[Ugolino]

[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock

I think that SWB's vote is too soft and Ugo's is too hard, but I'm picking SWB because I think trying to talk her down is a safer option that allows for escalation to something as harsh as Ugo's vote.

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Except that it doesn't actually talk her down. It's not soft so much as a non-vote...and the 'harshness' is a) a response to something we shouldn't just brush off for characterization's sake, b)spelling out the truth she asked for, fairly gently and without attacking her, c)giving her an out and way to get some apparent control over the situation.

SWB's vote seems soft only because it doesn't have us actually do anything about the problem. Inaction is a bad, bad call to make here...and that is exactly what the vote does. It'll upset her and waste an update for no gain at absolute best, all the while just shrugging off her slandering our friends. Which is honestly a mistake in terms of writing an actual character that has relationships with other characters...and doesn't really help at all with our goals.

tl;dr The SWB vote is 'playing it safe' by doing nothing in a situation. That isn't actually safe or helpful.

 

[Jakinbandw]

Of course she isn't ready.
No one could be ready for being a magical girl.
The problem is that we are not an authority.
We are a stranger.
If you are talking with a teenageer and say "i'm right! we don't negotiate and you shut up, you can't tell me what i do".
We are only a stranger with more power that say what she can or can't do.
And no one would listen to that, teen or adult.
You can use that type or reasoning when you have something more than simple physical leverage.
If that someone respect you/you are a figure of respect and order they will think about why you are doing this and if they are wrong.
We are a girl that think to know everything while she is still the same age as Ono and that broke in her house when she wanted to be alone.
On the two I would say "WTF? get out of here you crazy meguca! who the hell you think to be to broke in my house by force and then tying me up when i have want you out of here because i'm pretty much having a nervous collapse and you still appeared from nothing and probably listened to all my private problems!"
I don't think that in this situation saying "I'm stronger and you are nothing to me" will be good.

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When you see a kid run into traffic you don't stand back and try to reason with them, you go and save them. If you then get them off the road and let go and they try to run into traffic again, you don't let go just because you are a stranger. you keep a firm grip on them and keep them from doing it again until you can locate their parents, or are 100% sure that they won't run off and get themselves killed straight away.

What Oko is doing is far more dangerous than running off into traffic. This is no a matter of diplomacy any more. This is a matter of saving a kids life. And kids respect the authority of 'I'm stronger than you.' Why do you think bullies exist? Because when they are stronger they get there way and other kids listen or get beat up (or emotionally traumatized). Showing that we are stronger won't make her like us, but we aren't trying to make her like us, we are saving her life.

 

[Ugolino]

When you see a kid run into traffic you don't stand back and try to reason with them, you go and save them. If you then get them off the road and let go and they try to run into traffic again, you don't let go just because you are a stranger. you keep a firm grip on them and keep them from doing it again until you can locate their parents, or are 100% sure that they won't run off and get themselves killed straight away.

What Oko is doing is far more dangerous than running off into traffic. This is no a matter of diplomacy any more. This is a matter of saving a kids life. And kids respect the authority of 'I'm stronger than you.' Why do you think bullies exist? Because when they are stronger they get there way and other kids listen or get beat up (or emotionally traumatized). Showing that we are stronger won't make her like us, but we aren't trying to make her like us, we are saving her life.

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Ehhhhh. Strongly disagree. As much as I find SWB's specific approaches in this round of voting flawed, misguided, and all around distasteful, he's completely correct that this is a test of patience. For Sabrina but mostly for the thread.

If we take the quick, easy 'answer' and try SABRINA SMASHING Ono into compliance, it will backfire. The urgency of us getting through to her doesn't change that she'll probably implode if we force her to go along with what we want without winning her over.

Besides, I don't want us to play a bully, and the argument that 'we need to do this to save her life' doesn't really appeal when we have other, better options to try instead.

 

[TJSomething]

tl;dr The SWB vote is 'playing it safe' by doing nothing in a situation. That isn't actually safe or helpful.

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As I stated, I think that SWB is only marginally better than your vote, but I'm not convinced that slowing down is a bad tack to take, since it has been, by my estimation, a hectic 60 seconds since we came in to her room and I think this conversation actually take some time.

 

[Onmur]

[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock

I think that SWB's vote is too soft and Ugo's is too hard, but I'm picking SWB because I think trying to talk her down is a safer option that allows for escalation to something as harsh as Ugo's vote. I think that the crony comment probably should be responded to, for the sake of Mami and Homura, but only in passing, since I don't really want Ono to focus on it too much.

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It's not actually talking her down, I think. More like talking her up; make her keep talking, while we ourselves take the time to listen.

 

[Lordsservent]

And once again, the social situation has turned the votes into a clusterf*ck. Why am I not surprised by how hard this is?

 

[Ugolino]

Drox, Hannz, chocolote12, Lordsservent, Skelm, Onmur, cmwatford, angelofwhim, TheSlayers

The SWB vote doesn't seem to take useful action (ie: apologizing constantly and promising to explain later, again, when Ono's angry to the point of trying to attack us and outright demanding answers right now.) and acts in a way that I don't think makes sense for the character re: cronies. Are you sure you want to stick with it?

As I stated, I think that SWB is only marginally better than your vote, but I'm not convinced that slowing down is a bad tack to take, since it has been, by my estimation, a hectic 60 seconds since we came in to her room and I think this conversation needs to last for another 10 minutes.

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Slowing down would be one thing. Do we really want to avoid taking any action whatsoever when she's just demanding answers that we'd be refusing to give in that vote by basically stalling for time? She's outright demanding those answers right now, remember. How badly do you think she'd take us basically letting her stay tied up and refusing to actually treat her seriously, answer her questions/demands at all, or even suggest we might do something she wants us to?

We tried giving her time to calm down in the previous votes. It didn't take. I think any cooldown attempt needs to come after actually getting through to her...but I can see the argument for a cooldown. I just don't think the SWB vote does that well either.

And once again, the social situation has turned the votes into a clusterf*ck. Why am I not surprised by how hard this is?

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In the words of one wise poster whose name isn't coming to mind right now, "social is SV's hard counter".

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

Made the following edits so there are responses available if she questions us seriously. Also changed the phrasing on some statements to better reflect what they intended.

[X] Convey our appreciation to Mami non-verbally.
[X] Calmly. Let her respond to each line if she's inclined to. If she interrupts, let her finish. Pick up again after, repeating if necessary, or picking a response to what she said if one applies and would be helpful, or create a response along the same lines as the below if none apply.
-[X] I'm sorry I had to break into your home.
-[X] I understand that you feel slighted when I cancelled our appointment earlier.
-[X] I apologize that I needed to bother you about meeting today.
-[X] I needed to talk with you today because you haven't been told what you need to know to survive as a magical girl.
-[X] I chose to intrude against your will because you would die if I did nothing. Your soul gem would fill, break, and you would be gone.
-[X] I'm not going to leave until I'm satisfied you are taking me seriously.

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I do agree the apologies are worthless and am really wondering why it's in the vote.

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Apologies give a basis for more civil conversation. Responses might vary from "them why did you do it, you crazy bitch" to "yeah, you better be" just as examples, but those are progress. Either way, it's much more difficult for her to fall back on or repeat something we've acknowledged. That goes regardless of her own opinion. It defuses tension and doesn't lose anything.

 

[Onmur]

Drox, Hannz, chocolote12, Lordsservent, Skelm, Onmur, cmwatford, angelofwhim, TheSlayers

The SWB vote doesn't seem to take useful action (ie: apologizing constantly and promising to explain later, again, when Ono's angry to the point of trying to attack us and outright demanding answers right now.) and acts in a way that I don't think makes sense for the character re: cronies. Are you sure you want to stick with it?


Slowing down would be one thing. Do we really want to avoid taking any action whatsoever when she's just demanding answers that we'd be refusing to give in that vote by basically stalling for time? She's outright demanding those answers right now, remember. How badly do you think she'd take us basically letting her stay tied up and refusing to actually treat her seriously, answer her questions/demands at all, or even suggest we might do something she wants us to?

We tried giving her time to calm down in the previous votes. It didn't take. I think any cooldown attempt needs to come after actually getting through to her...but I can see the argument for a cooldown. I just don't think the SWB vote does that well either.


In the words of one wise poster whose name isn't coming to mind right now, "social is SV's hard counter".

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Ono is not demanding answers, she's insulting us. Pretty much everything she's doing, she's doing as an attempt to intimidate us, scare us off. She's throwing a tantrum so we'll leave her alone, that's all.

SWB's vote is not about apologizing, it's about maintaining Ono's rather draining emotional state, until she can't hold onto it any more. Only after she calms down we'll be able to communicate with her.

Plus, angry-Ono says things calm-Ono wouldn't.

 

[Gadjo]

Apologies give a basis for more civil conversation. Responses might vary from "them why did you do it, you crazy bitch" to "yeah, you better be" just as examples, but those are progress. Either way, it's much more difficult for her to fall back on or repeat something we've acknowledged. That goes regardless of her own opinion. It defuses tension and doesn't lose anything.

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You're forgetting the other possible response: "No, you're not!"

Which would, er, be true. And it would lose something, since she'd just be even angrier because now we have the nerve to pretend to apologize? Yada yada. False apologies, or apologies that will be perceived as false, are in fact worse than not apologizing.

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

No you're not just makes the subject untenable. There's nothing else to say, for her, as long as we don't start going back and forth on it. So yes, that's fine too, even if it's the least good response.


Edit: Let me add to that. I don't mind if she gives us shit for an apology. If she goes "bullshit, you aren't sorry at all. You're just trying to xxxx", that gives us something to work with and gets more out of her.

 

[Onmur]

You're forgetting the other possible response: "No, you're not!"

Which would, er, be true. And it would lose something, since she'd just be even angrier because now we have the nerve to pretend to apologize? Yada yada. False apologies, or apologies that will be perceived as false, are in fact worse than not apologizing.

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As long as she says anything else afterwards, worth it. I'd like to hear why she thinks we're not sorry, what she really thinks.

Ono never says what she thinks when she's calm.

 

[Gadjo]

No you're not just makes the subject untenable. There's nothing else to say, for her, as long as we don't start going back and forth on it. So yes, that's fine too, even if it's the least good response.

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But you see, it seems like the most likely response. We just broke into her house and tied her up. She ain't in a forgiving mood. Calling bullshit seems like the most normal thing to do. And the issue is more than making that subject untenable, it also poisons them for later because they'll think you're always bullshitting when you apologize, and apologies are kind of a useful tool that I'd rather not mangle.

As long as she says anything else afterwards, worth it. I'd like to hear why she thinks we're not sorry, what she really thinks.

Ono never says what she thinks when she's calm.

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She thinks we're not sorry, most likely because we've been putting her off all day and just broke into her room, refused to leave, then tied her up. Not too hard to figure this one out, and the price is just pissing her off further, which I'd have to say is not worth paying for gaining absolutely nothing.

 

[Onmur]

But you see, it seems like the most likely response. We just broke into her house and tied her up. She ain't in a forgiving mood. Calling bullshit seems like the most normal thing to do. And the issue is more than making that subject untenable, it also poisons them for later because they'll think you're always bullshitting when you apologize, and apologies are kind of a useful tool that I'd rather not mangle.

She thinks we're not sorry, most likely because we've been putting her off all day and just broke into her room, refused to leave, then tied her up. Not too hard to figure this one out, and the price is just pissing her off further, which I'd have to say is not worth paying for gaining absolutely nothing.

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No, we'll just have to show later, that we actually mean our apologies we make today.

'Gaining absolutely nothing' is what we've been doing so far, aside from keeping Ono alive.

This vote does gain us something we need right now, which is leading Ono into an emotional state where our words will have any amount of value to her.

What gains us absolutely nothing is thinking we can talk with Ono right now.

 

[CornyBones]

I'm tempted to put my charms to trying out my own vote. Feel something is missing from these ones....hmm.

Lemme try and break in down to bullet points, tell me if I'm honing in.

-Defend friends from Ono's insult
-move past it quickly.
-Explain why you broke into her house
-refuse to leave until Magical Girl subject is covered.
-stress our commitment to making sure she stays alive

What else do we want to do in this vote?

 

[AuraTwilight]

This is a hard decision for me.

[x] Abstain

 

[Onmur]

I'm tempted to put my charms to trying out my own vote. Feel something is missing from these ones....hmm.

Lemme try and break in down to bullet points, tell me if I'm honing in.

-Defend friends from Ono's insult
-Explain why you broke into her house
-refuse to leave until Magical Girl subject is covered.
-stress our commitment to making sure she stays alive

What else do we want to do in this vote?

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-Not keeping Ono's attention on the rather meaningless insult.
-We can't explain anything until Ono is ready to listen.
-Refusing to leave is fine.

At some point, we need to explain why we're going to all this trouble, here.

As I see it, the conflict comes from the fact that Ono and Sabrina care a lot about different things, which are in opposition right now: Ono cares more about her image; Sabrina cares more about Ono's life.

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

But you see, it seems like the most likely response. We just broke into her house and tied her up. She ain't in a forgiving mood. Calling bullshit seems like the most normal thing to do. And the issue is more than making that subject untenable, it also poisons them for later because they'll think you're always bullshitting when you apologize, and apologies are kind of a useful tool that I'd rather not mangle.

She thinks we're not sorry, most likely because we've been putting her off all day and just broke into her room, refused to leave, then tied her up. Not too hard to figure this one out, and the price is just pissing her off further, which I'd have to say is not worth paying for gaining absolutely nothing.

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Forgiveness doesn't have a whit to do with it. If we achieved everything we wanted to here with whatever method, I still wouldn't expect to be forgiven for any of it.

All of the apologies are along the lines of "I'm sorry that X was necessary". Which is completely correct, but doesn't change that X was necessary.

Calling bullshit is fine. It can be done in many ways, some of which we can respond to to make progress. She is going to try every verbal tactic she can to express herself, so I expect some lines will be more fruitful than others, but the responses will not all be the same.

If we're in a situation where we can make apologies that will be taken completely seriously later, then we will still be apologizing for the same things, and so much will have changed that how we talked her down won't be relevant anymore.

 

[CornyBones]

-Not keeping Ono's attention on the rather meaningless insult.
-We can't explain anything until Ono is ready to listen.
-Refusing to leave is fine.

At some point, we need to explain why we're going to all this trouble, here.

As I see it, the conflict comes from the fact that Ono and Sabrina care a lot about different things, which are in opposition right now: Ono cares more about her image; Sabrina cares more about Ono's life.

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So ignoring the insult is better than addressing it?

I agree about us not sharing the Magical stuff until further into the conversation. We need to get deeper into the dialogue before we can start sharing.

 

[Lordsservent]

I am pretty much completely lost on how to deal with her at this point, I am not the greatest at social interaction, especially with people like Ono.