Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

[Imrix]

[] Explain, however, that you also take time to enjoy yourself as much as you can. Meeting and getting to know people, exploring or even just playing with your powers, finding out little things you didn't know... drawing strength from the people you've come to care about. Admittedly, it's a lot easier when everything is new, but you get up everyday with people to see and something different to do.

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Edited a cut-down version in. Current vote is below.

[X] "Do you have any idea how hard it is to be sad with all the Monty Python skits in your head? My brain is a trip, I tell ya."
-[X] "Seriously though? ... I think it's an outside perspective thing. I know everything, but I didn't live through it, so I can just take the lessons and put them towards making this time better. Kind of unfair actually; in a way, you and Mami and the rest of the girls have done most of the work for me." Shrug. "Shoulders of giants and all that, I guess."
[X] "Helps to have fun, too. Meeting new people, hanging out with friends, fiddling with my powers... All work and no play makes Sabrina a dull girl, and people are meant to work together. We build each other up, give each other reasons to keep going - like you and Madoka."

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[Agent Whiskers]

Hmmm, maybe we should make a list here first about how Sabrina stays happy?

1.) She really just is that kind of person.
2.) She knows that a happy ending is perfectly possible so she retains hope for the future.
3.) She actually hasn't lived through and experienced personally what Homura has gone through.
4.) She chooses to enjoy life. Hanging out with friends, helping people and making them happy, cooking, science, etc. Those kind of these make us feel good and we choose to revel in that feeling.

It might help to explain why we're happy right now in particular. After a long stressful day, we can finally relax, rob the yakuza blind of all their nice shiny guns and explosives, and hang out with Homu.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

To be fair, it's closer to the point than talking about how we're detached and don't really have problems.

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That's not what it's saying at all. It's saying that knowing everything she's been through doesn't seem to affect Sabrina much because she herself didn't live through it, she only knows it.

That's a HUGE difference, and I think it'd help Homura a lot--otherwise, we'd be trivializing her experiences and Homura's incredible feat of coping with them without going insane.

Now, we can also explain how we seem to enjoy ourselves in times like these even while we actually live through our own setbacks and bad experiences, but we should absolutely include the first half of the answer, too.

---

Probably a silly suggestion, but at least interesting to think about:

Spoiler

Come to think of it, I genuinely wonder how well it'd go over if we explained that our decision-making processes are a bit inhuman in that they are composed of many distinct individuals coming to a consensus. Considering how that alone accounts for so much of the actual answer to the second, implied question Homura has, it feels kinda weird for us to gloss over it entirely, even just internally. To elaborate: no one is dealing with Sabrina's experiences alone, and every negative perspective is moderated by a positive one--some rational perspectives temper other emotional ones, and the end result is an amalgamated individual who is never really driven to extremes nor too severely impacted by bad experiences. Not exactly helpful to Homura, I suppose, but it's honest.

EDIT: And a huge difference between us and Homura is that we haven't lived through time loops. Nothing really hurts you emotionally (nor isolates you emotionally and socially) like the sheer disconnect between all of the people you built close friendships with you through experiences and hardship suddenly not recognizing you anymore or remembering anything you went through together. Multiply that by a factor of a hundred, and you get someone who is genuinely emotionally numb and extremely avoidant of building relationships with anyone. And frankly, this even extends to voters in a quest--put voters through enough unscripted timeloops where failure seems to becoming increasingly certain, and they'll experience largely the same thing; the only thing preventing this is that unusual group of voters who will approach the entire situation far more rationally and far less emotionally, helping to give the rest some measure of hope and determination, but even then everyone will still be emotionally numbed someone to the various relationships and characters. The focus just shifts to being rationally determined to figure out the loops and challenges and overcome them, instead of on the characters and relationships around them. Y'know, pretty much like what Homura did (ain't that interesting?), but with a far higher bare minimum emotional attachment to the characters and potential relationships with them.

This is critical, because this is a difficulty unique to Homura. It's also natural and understandable that she experience this effect. I think we should point this out to her, and tell her that Sabrina is confident that we will succeed this loop, which is why we're encouraging her to reconnect with people again. We know how devastating and hopeless Homura's every encounter with a nigh-unstoppable juggernaut like WPN was for her, but this time, we're going to be the ultimate ace up her sleeve and fucking annihilate it. The super-witch is going to get a taste of its own medicine for a change, so everyone can focus on and prioritize connecting with each other and handling everything else in our way in the meantime.

 

[Muramasa]

How many times does it have to be said that Sabrina is her own character? We influence the thought process but Sabrina has never once acknowledged SV.

 

[Onmur]

Probably a silly suggestion, but at least interesting to think about:
Come to think of it, I genuinely wonder how well it'd go over if we explained that our decision-making processes are a bit inhuman in that they are composed of many distinct individuals coming to a consensus. Considering how that alone accounts for so much of the actual answer to the second, implied question Homura has, it feels kinda weird for us to gloss over it entirely, even just internally. To elaborate: no one is dealing with Sabrina's experiences alone, and every negative perspective is moderated by a positive one--some rational perspectives temper other emotional ones, and the end result is an amalgamated individual who is never really driven to extremes nor too severely impacted by bad experiences. Not exactly helpful to Homura, I suppose, but it's honest.

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Maybe if we don't put it in such an alien way?

We say that we feel like there's always a lot of conflicting emotions and ideas running through our head, that there's many things, good and bad, we feel and think that usually don't reach the the surface. In the end, it might be weird, but seeing our problems in so many different ways balances us, keeps everything in perspective, like we're inside a conflict and outside at the same time?

Kind of cryptic, but we could express these ideas in some fashion.


In the end, being happy is more because we don't ever feel like we're alone. As long as we've got friends...

 

[SaltyWaffles]

How many times does it have to be said that Sabrina is her own character? We influence the thought process but Sabrina has never once acknowledged SV.

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I never contradicted that. Hell, I even said that the "resulting individual" was a "person who...". Sabrina is her own character, but her decision-making processes are, well, us. That's what I was talking about.

And, well, since the thread's own conversations and general state directly influence Sabrina's own mental state, it even goes a bit further than that.

So with that in mind, what I said was true--and it explains why Sabrina almost seems to just process her experiences and memories differently than everyone else.

I never said that "it explains why Sabrina hears voices in her head" or "Sabrina is actually an amalgamation/avatar of many different people"--though I did describe Sabrina as something of an "amalgamated individual", so I'll give you that much. There's a big difference, though, between describing someone as an *adjective* "amalgamated" individual, and describing someone as a *noun* "amalgamation" of many different individuals.

 

['Lement]

Oh hey, skipped over an update....

Well, with that attitude...

How are we ever gonna know what the whispers mean if we don't listen to them? If we don't seek them? Do you want us to always turn around and flee whenever we find something which looks like it could destroy our mind? How gutless.

I say embrace the whispers! Heed them! Listen to them and whisper back! Open the gates of communication for only that way will we reach enlightment! Enlightment or death! Or worse! But maybe enlightment!

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I keep voting for this but nobody bandwagons

Some Yakuza's are family guys. Gotta pick out the really messed up ones so we don't accidentally a family of 8.

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But if you off one of those you accidentally only 1/8 of a family! More seriously, though....

Trying to remove it could be dangerous for the person, and I don't see a compelling reason to try it.

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I give it 60-70% that the guy falls over, dead, while his soul starts to orbit us with the rest of our constellation.

But if he doesn't...Wouldn't that be interesting? What is human without proto-witch in the center? Are any members of this thread morticans, I wonder?

-We could of wished for non-grief powers.

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Perhaps. But we will have wished for grief powers, even if at zero we could say we never did.

A disproportionate number of yakuza ladies seem to have green hair.

Wait a minute.

Where exactly does Hitomi's money come from?

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Oh crap, @Firnagzen, what colors ar....

...I think I may have found a downside to timestop.
[×] Shave all the yakuza
I wonder if we can cut their hair just a little bit? They wouldn't even notice 'till they look in mirror.

Homura will not approve surely.

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I do not want to hope that it would give an Oriko a headache for us referencing things from the future. Again. Just to troll.

But I do.

Kyubey...he feasts off our suffering. Maybe not literally

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Maybe quite literally. We've already fed him our grief from suffering.

That's not what it's saying at all. It's saying that knowing everything she's been through doesn't seem to affect Sabrina much because she herself didn't live through it, she only knows it.

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Furthermore, even if watching PMMM was emotion-laden and often sad - not sure if anyone in thread cried over it - we, generally, have long since finished watching it and moved on. (or in my case, still not seen it)

It is the wrong word, but trauma from a life you've left behind and buried is quite different from one you're still going through every day, for the latter gives you certain caged mindset alone.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

Maybe if we don't put it in such an alien way?

We say that we feel like there's always a lot of conflicting emotions and ideas running through our head, that there's many things, good and bad, we feel and think that usually don't reach the the surface. In the end, it might be weird, but seeing our problems in so many different ways balances us, keeps everything in perspective, like we're inside a conflict and outside at the same time?

Kind of cryptic, but we could express these ideas in some fashion.


In the end, being happy is more because we don't ever feel like we're alone. As long as we've got friends...

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...I don't really think that works, to be honest. Understandably, because it glosses over all of the key points, and thus fails to convey any of them. Not that it can really be helped when describing something a bit alien.

But perhaps we can translate the implied, resulting point in a way Homura can somewhat apply?

Mainly, that having other people you can be completely open with and rely on to process your experiences with helps tremendously for one's emotional and psychological health, to such a degree that it's difficult to describe. It would be immediately applicable to Homura (she at least has Sabrina for such a role, already up to speed and everything), even if she never really had much of an option like that before (time loops erasing all relationships and experiences she had with anyone else? Yeah).

Hell, we could even point this out to Homura: coping with bad experiences becomes vastly more difficult when you have no one to confide in and help you process them, and because of her going through the time loops alone, she never had this option--which just makes it all the more impressive how well she's coped with everything so far, and how understandable her emotional distance and aversion to feeling happy are.

 

[Muramasa]

I never contradicted that. Hell, I even said that the "resulting individual" was a "person who...". Sabrina is her own character, but her decision-making processes are, well, us. That's what I was talking about.

And, well, since the thread's own conversations and general state directly influence Sabrina's own mental state, it even goes a bit further than that.

So with that in mind, what I said was true--and it explains why Sabrina almost seems to just process her experiences and memories differently than everyone else.

I never said that "it explains why Sabrina hears voices in her head" or "Sabrina is actually an amalgamation/avatar of many different people"--though I did describe Sabrina as something of an "amalgamated individual", so I'll give you that much. There's a big difference, though, between describing someone as an *adjective* "amalgamated" individual, and describing someone as a *noun* "amalgamation" of many different individuals.

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Far as I'm aware, Sabrina has never once acknowledged even her thought process in this regard and has never invisioned her thoughts as individuals coming to a consensus. It's the level of seperation between the forum and the character, I just completely disagree with.

 

[universalperson]

[X] "Do you have any idea how hard it is to be sad with all the Monty Python skits in your head? My brain is a trip, I tell ya."
-[X] "Seriously though? ... I think it's an outside perspective thing. I know everything, but I didn't live through it, so I can just take the lessons and put them towards making this time better. Kind of unfair actually; in a way, you and Mami and the rest of the girls have done most of the work for me." Shrug. "Shoulders of giants and all that, I guess."
[X] "Helps to have fun, too. Meeting new people, hanging out with friends, fiddling with my powers... All work and no play makes Sabrina a dull girl, and people are meant to work together. We build each other up, give each other reasons to keep going - like you and Madoka."

I feel like we should add something about Sabrina's wish, since it's not like she has to worry about running out of magic.

 

[Onmur]

...I don't really think that works, to be honest. Understandably, because it glosses over all of the key points, and thus fails to convey any of them. Not that it can really be helped when describing something a bit alien.

But perhaps we can translate the implied, resulting point in a way Homura can somewhat apply?

Mainly, that having other people you can be completely open with and rely on to process your experiences with helps tremendously for one's emotional and psychological health, to such a degree that it's difficult to describe. It would be immediately applicable to Homura (she at least has Sabrina for such a role, already up to speed and everything), even if she never really had much of an option like that before (time loops erasing all relationships and experiences she had with anyone else? Yeah).

Hell, we could even point this out to Homura: coping with bad experiences becomes vastly more difficult when you have no one to confide in and help you process them, and because of her going through the time loops alone, she never had this option--which just makes it all the more impressive how well she's coped with everything so far, and how understandable her emotional distance and aversion to feeling happy are.

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Well... There's a point in that Sabrina pretty much always had somebody to rely on, from the start. And while there's thing we can't confide with, say, Mami, those same things we have confided in Homura, or even Oriko (not that we're bringing her up now). So the burden we're carrying entirely by ourselves is actually really small, isn't it?

And we still hope to share more of our secrets in due time, so there's less pressure from that, that there could be.

It's like... we never feel lonely. And it's not about having people physically close, it's about this, this sharing of everything, good and bad. There's always somebody we can at least hope to rely on. Even with trepidation, we rely not only on fragile Mami, on suspicious Homura, but we even rely on our past enemies as far as we feel we understand them; I think us taking Kirika out to Ishinomaki and Sendai is a great example of that, how hoping there'll be somebody helping us, does itself help.

I feel I'm not being very clear. Thinking time, I guess.



Now, I can't help but feel that we're being dishonest if we don't mention how part of this enthusiasm is simply about hanging out with Homura, specifically. Will it be hard to exlpain that? We're not gonna go and seriously talk about the Momura theory, but maybe if we say enough times, she'll understand we really look up to her? Man, I really want that [] Hug Homura to happen now.

 

[boonerunner]

I feel you very much miss what Homura is trying to ask, though. She doesn't think that we don't have worries. She's asking how we cope when, even with something like today where it's suggested we might ourselves be the cause of a really big problem, we still get excited about small things. She knows damn well what problems we have. They share hers and might even be bigger than hers.

The hidden question is: She wants to know how she can feel that way too.

See, Homura is a person who has never had self confidence. That's not to say that she has never been optimistic, because she has, but that negative experiences affected her confidence very quickly. She was excited about school, and then just one day got her down enough to get witch kissed. She was excited about sharing being magical girls with Madoka, and then it only took a few weeks to bring that down too. She does have extreme determination, amazing persistence, the ability to not despair - she has all that, but she doesn't have the ability to regain her cheerful outlook.

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I agree.

So speeching about our challenges and about Kyubey and about winning... it misses the point. Entirely.

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I disagree with this part, though. The hope we have for the future is shaped by the challenges we face. We can't talk about hope and cheerfulness without mentioning the challenges that they spring from. Sure, Homura already knows about the challenges, but in order to have a complete answer, we need to mention them. We don't achieve hope by ignoring the challenges - we achieve hope by acknowledging them, and deciding push through them to a brighter future.

It's true that we have an outsider's perspective and haven't actually lived through all of the trauma that Homura has. And it wouldn't hurt to acknowledge that (for honesty's sake), but we also have actual struggles in the present and worries for the future and I think it is important to mention them because that's where Homura can empathise with us and (perhaps) learn to face her own future with that same hope.

 

[Agent Whiskers]

[] "It's not all that special or amazing. I might know and have seen a lot that's happened, but that's completely different from experiencing it personally like you have. And while know how absolutely terrible things have been, I also know that it could be so much better and that there could be a happy ending to all of this, which keeps my hope alive. I have it had far more easier than all of you, to be perfectly honest."
[] "And I guess I just enjoy life and all the little things. Being with my friends, helping people, doing science, meeting new people, Those things make me happy, so I'm happy. The people around me also help a lot. I've always had someone rely on when things get too hard or bad. As bad as things can get, that doesn't mean it's impossible to be happy in life.
-[] "Take for example why I'm happy right now. There have been a lot of bad things popping up lately, but right now I get to relax, rob the yakuza of all their shiny guns, and spend time with you."
[] "You should also focus on what makes you happy and the things that you enjoy, Homura. Whether it's little things like eating cream stew or big things like being around Madoka and keeping her safe and happy. Try and hang on to the feeling that things like that give instead of dwelling on all the bad. Rely on your friends instead of just yourself. It really isn't anywhere near as easy as it sounds, but you of all of people deserve to be happy."

Well, this kind of got away from me.

This is a lot harder than I thought it would be...

 

[Onmur]

"Knowledge only goes so far."

 

[Aranfan]

[x] Imrix

 

[o3o]

Oh hey, skipped over an update....

I keep voting for this but nobody bandwagons

But if you off one of those you accidentally only 1/8 of a family! More seriously, though....

I give it 60-70% that the guy falls over, dead, while his soul starts to orbit us with the rest of our constellation.

But if he doesn't...Wouldn't that be interesting? What is human without proto-witch in the center? Are any members of this thread morticans, I wonder?

Perhaps. But we will have wished for grief powers, even if at zero we could say we never did.

Oh crap, @Firnagzen, what colors ar....

...I think I may have found a downside to timestop.
[×] Shave all the yakuza
I wonder if we can cut their hair just a little bit? They wouldn't even notice 'till they look in mirror.

I do not want to hope that it would give an Oriko a headache for us referencing things from the future. Again. Just to troll.

But I do.

Maybe quite literally. We've already fed him our grief from suffering.

Furthermore, even if watching PMMM was emotion-laden and often sad - not sure if anyone in thread cried over it - we, generally, have long since finished watching it and moved on. (or in my case, still not seen it)

It is the wrong word, but trauma from a life you've left behind and buried is quite different from one you're still going through every day, for the latter gives you certain caged mindset alone.

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I watched it like, four days ago, and can confirm I teared up a bit when Sayaka was crying to Madoka.

 

[CompassJimbo]

I watched it like, four days ago, and can confirm I teared up a bit when Sayaka was crying to Madoka.

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You really should have done an IWIW. That way we could have laughed at your misery helped you deal with the brutality of the setting.

 

[Boobah]

Spoiler: Witchbombing

I feel there's an inherent danger to anything and everything relating familiar/witch science performed by Sabrina, due to her powers being so similar to that of witches.

The less we give people the chance to think about witches and Sabrina in the same sentence, the best.

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Honestly, as soon as Sabrina made it obvious that the 'corruption' in soul gems was witchstuff the bomb was ticking. If you know that the black stuff in soul gems is witchstuff and you know that Something Bad Happens should your gem fill with corruptionwitchstuff... yeah. Then add in how paranoid Sabrina can be about cleansing the gems of the girls around her.

It'd be kind of funny if the witchbomb gets dropped in front of Mami and she's all "Well, yeah. Sabrina made it kind of obvious. She thought the big secret of contracting with Kyubey was our souls being stuck in a rock. Why do you think I stopped trying to recruit Miki and Kaname?"

Spoiler: Entropy

Just a thought on the entropy issue. What if somone wished spiral power into being?

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Presumably, everything would be awesome forever.

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If the incubators want the universe to continue forever, they're also Anti-Spirals on top of everything else. They'd be just as unhappy with Spiral Nemesis as a complete heat death. They'd do their best to suppress spiral energy because it's too much of a good thing. And also it's a lot easier to see the problem of hot-blooded Spirals kicking your teeth in compared to hopeful megucas wishing the universe out from under you.

No, we think we know what his goal is. Is the generation of energy a solution to a problem or the problem itself? What specifically are we trying to fight, and why are we fighting it? Is entropy merely the Incubators' dumbing down of a much greater and more dangerous concept, or is it truly the measurement of the number of microstates of the universe that the Incubators are trying to modify?

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That's... a very good point. PMMM is full of characters that wished for things that only kinda sorta addressed their actual problem. Why should the incubators be left out of that?

Spoiler: Soul Gems

Rin did good work, Moe's body fully healed, smoothly unblemished skin showing beneath rips in a modest, heavily ruffled black dress, a single, asymmetrical dark red glove on her hand. You can see where you tore her Soul Gem away from the wrist of her glove, worn like a watch.

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That's just weird to me, Firn. That's a discoed Moe, still transformed. Admittedly, the one time a disco happened in the materials I've seen Sayaka was already in her civvies, but I'd expect a disco to have basically the same effect as breaking the gem. Though ultimately it's a matter of my headcanon disagreeing with yours, so meh.

I also found it weird that while an invisible, intangible ribbon could bring one into timestop handling the soul gem doesn't (see the wrap up of the Oriko fight). The latter seems a much more real connection to me. Although that points towards the connecting to life theory for Mami's wish, so...

While being Spider-Man is suffering, Mami is clearly not that because Japanese Spider-Man has a giant robot.

Clearly, Mami needs a giant grief robot. Something something drill hair something heavens?

 

[Onmur]

While being Spider-Man is suffering, Mami is clearly not that because Japanese Spider-Man has a giant robot.

Clearly, Mami needs a giant grief robot. Something something drill hair something heavens?

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We do what we can.

I watched it like, four days ago, and can confirm I teared up a bit when Sayaka was crying to Madoka.

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I didn't cry, but I did tear up while watching PMMM. Damn Urobutcher, making me feel feelings in my chest.

 

[Sereg]

Oh hey, skipped over an update....

Furthermore, even if watching PMMM was emotion-laden and often sad - not sure if anyone in thread cried over it - we, generally, have long since finished watching it and moved on. (or in my case, still not seen it)

It is the wrong word, but trauma from a life you've left behind and buried is quite different from one you're still going through every day, for the latter gives you certain caged mindset alone.

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I can say that I certainly cried over it. Repeatedly.

Anyway ...

[] Well, firstly, as you've probably noticed, I'm not happy all the time. I have my doubts and negative feelings just like everyone else.
[] Plus, I think you're giving me more credit than I deserve. I may know this stuff, but you lived through it, and pretending those are the same is just not fair.
[] And I have a few other advantages too. I knew this stuff before I got into it, so I was prepared. I even chose my wish with that in mind.
-[] They way I think means that I'm able to process shock, horror and despair a lot faster than most.
-[]The fact that I have no memories of before means that I haven't felt the pain of learning this stuff.
[] There's more than that though. The fact that this entire situation sucks means that I appreciate the few things that don't suck even more.
-[] Right now, for instance, I'm happy because I'm spending quality time with a friend. I was looking forward to it all day.
[] You and the others are good people, and none of us should be miserable, despite what Kyuubey wants. So, I'm going to try arrange for us all to enjoy ourselves as much as we can.
-[] Besides, if we despaired, we will have lost and Kyuubey will have won, and it may be petty, but I just don't like the sound of that.
[]When I woke up, I had nothing but my knowledge. So, all I could do was grab onto the goal set before me: To destroy this system that the Incubators set up, so that the smiles of magical girls could be real and not products of naivety.
-[] And I know that it can be done, so I'll keep pushing forward, and I'll enjoy myself while doing so, because I'm doing what I've decided to dedicate myself towards. That at least is something you can understand, right?

 

[Redshirt Army]

We want our response to be both honest, and helpful. Several good points have been brought up, so...

Sabrina is happy because:
• We're not lonely: Mami took us in right off the bat, we're honest with Homura and Oriko, we're hanging out with Homura right now.
• We weren't there: watching something does not have the same emotional impact as being there.
• We were forewarned: "Kyubey a shit" is something we knew before we knew our name. We knew what we were getting into with a quest called 'System Breaker', and chose to try and change it despite how big it is. Despairing over it is... pointless?
• We're powerful: Let's be honest: Not having to worry about ourselves or our friends witching out while we're nearby, and being powerful enough that changing things isn't impossible, is a big part of why we're happy.
• We're brain damaged: Or more accurately, the specifics of the quest format carry over into Sabrina being generally upbeat, and with the attention span of a squirrel. Even when something bad happens, we get over it much faster than normal.

Homura can't get more power easily (or brain damage, I guess...). But the first three points should be used. Are there more points I'm missing?

 

[Lordsservent]

Maybe that we are still having some problems with the whole rebellion baggage, that we can't let anyone but ourselves know.

 

['Lement]

Maybe that we are still having some problems with the whole rebellion baggage, that we can't let anyone but ourselves know.

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[X] Raise feather to your ear.
[X] "This is subprocess Sabrina, It is awesome to have someone you can honestly and fully confide in. Do try, truly."

 

[Lordsservent]

[X] Raise feather to your ear.
[X] "This is subprocess Sabrina, It is awesome to have someone you can honestly and fully confide in. Do try, truly."

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Don't make us look even more crazy! Also, please change those to jk's, it will be counted if it has X's in it. If you do that, then we will be good.

 

['Lement]

Don't make us look even more crazy! Also, please change those to jk's, it will be counted if it has X's in it. If you do that, then we will be good.

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As long as it gets less than [ ] Bandwagon it is alriiiiiiiiight. Firn generally picks the winning vote.
(Even if social is the one true way to win over Homucifer the thread won't pick it. It has character.)

Besides, I did not make a promise.

And I have another reason to do it: As the intensity and spread of votes do get considered a little bit, albeit thoughts they remain. By considering more options they keep more options open... It doesn't have to be like that, we could not vote to do ninety on our behaviour - but I'm not entirely comfortable with how comfortable some are with driving hands-free or giving up the reins.