To be fair, at the point when Homu does the Milton thing Madoka's Law of the Cycles is looking pretty shaky (or at least it does to me).

The Incubators know conclusively that Madoka exists, that Homu was right, and that Witches are the way to go. QB itself says that they don't need Homu anymore - they have proof of concept.
Anyone who thinks that they aren't going to be doing the same isolation field trick over and over to every remaining Meguca until they're able to make good on their stated goal (to observe, then interfere, then control Madokami) is kidding themselves.

Madoka wished to end every witch (thus being hope to every Meguca) - she's not allowed to play favourites with Homura in that respect - thus unless she comes up with a workaround she's going to be going through more isolation fields to rescue the trapped Megucas, continually being exposed to the Incubators - thus giving them multiple chances to stop her.

I don't see that ending well for anyone. Nigh-omnipotent as she may be, QB implied that they believe it likely that they could eventually overcome her and I believe it when it says that.

Someone had to do something, or we'd end up with ULTIMATE BAD END where girls become witches all over again and everything Homura and Madoka went through is rendered utterly meaningless.
Homucifer and her Lotus eater machine (for all their faults) are a significant step downwards in degrees of Badness when compared to a return to the pre-Madokami system.
The problem with this theory is that it's never brought up in the movie. If this was Homura's reason, then surely she would have brought it up when she and Sayaka were talking at the end. Instead, Homura says her purpose was to take "records of the person that Madoka was before she ceased to exist" and Homura labels her own actions as evil. Later, when Homura is talking to Madoka, she says "you are exactly what you were always meant to be." The whole purpose of Homura's ascension was her desire for Madoka to be a normal girl instead of a Concept. The incubators didn't factor.

The incubators seem scary and dangerous to a normal human because they're aliens who have advanced technology, but Madokami (and Homucifer) are goddesses. Homura enslaved the incubators with a single thought as a side effect of her ascension. Madoka had the same power as Homura; she could have enslaved the incubators from the beginning if she had wanted, but she simply chose not to.

The incubators were never going to be able to pose a threat to Madokami. She knew about their plan ahead of time and walked into the trap with her eyes wide open so that she (and Nagisa and Sayaka) could smash it open from the inside. The only thing that ever posed a threat to Madokami was Homura.

If I were given a choice to fight either a goddess or the incubators, I would definitely choose to fight the incubators. I at least have a few ideas of how we might beat them. When it comes to goddesses, I'm stumped.
 
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The incubators seem scary and dangerous to a normal human because they're aliens who have advanced technology, but Madokami (and Homucifer) are goddesses. Homura enslaved the incubators with a single thought as a side effect of her ascension. Madoka had the same power as Homura; she could have enslaved the incubators from the beginning if she had wanted, but she simply chose not to.

The incubators were never going to be able to pose a threat to Madokami. She knew about their plan ahead of time and walked into the trap with her eyes wide open so that she (and Nagisa and Sayaka) could smash it open from the inside. The only thing that ever posed a threat to Madokami was Homura.
The thing about Madoka having enough power to overpower the Incubators is that while that's true, Madoka is locked within the bounds of her wish. She can have a little leverage (such as killing a bunch of Incubators within range as a mild middle finger to them) of how exactly she helps girls before they turns into Witches, but nothing really more than that. Homucifer doesn't really have any limitations. If anything, if her original wish factors into her ascension, her only limitation would be that her actions have to work towards protecting Madoka and as we've seen throughout the series, protecting Madoka provides a very broad spectrum of options.
 
The thing about Madoka having enough power to overpower the Incubators is that while that's true, Madoka is locked within the bounds of her wish. She can have a little leverage (such as killing a bunch of Incubators within range as a mild middle finger to them) of how exactly she helps girls before they turns into Witches, but nothing really more than that. Homucifer doesn't really have any limitations. If anything, if her original wish factors into her ascension, her only limitation would be that her actions have to work towards protecting Madoka and as we've seen throughout the series, protecting Madoka provides a very broad spectrum of options.
This is one possible explanation for why Madokami didn't enslave the incubators. Another is that Madoka is an idealist, so maybe the idea of mind-raping a sentient race into being humanity's slaves for eternity was not something she considered (even though they did deserve it), whereas Homura had no such scruples.
 
Yeah, no, Homulucifer turning the world into her own personal witch barrier in the name of Madoka's safety when Madoka definitely didn't need said saving isn't the better outcome. The Incubators lost Rebellion, Homura's power grab was just...well, that and any further attempts were going to end the same way: with pink arrows of +10 Incubator smiting. They had one chance to get Madoka without her cluing in (as they saw it) and it failed. Utterly.

My money's on the wish-powered concept over the Fluffy white aperture science hivemind.
 
See, now at the end of the movie when she's talking to Sayaka, she would have no reason to talk about her reasoning for what she did. She
1. Doesn't like Sayaka, and hasn't been a great communicator in the best of times before
2. Is overcome with self-loathing at what she just did. She hates herself at the end of the movie, she isn't going to try to justify her actions, because at this point she's decided she's just evil.

And while Madoka is omniscient, bear in mind this one terrifying fact: The incubators can interfere with the omniscience of a god. They'd just keep doing the isolation field forever until they got the information they needed to build tech that could interfere with Madoka. Even if that wouldn't work, that's what Homura thought, and that's why she did it. If she just wanted to be with Madoka, why would she have done that at all? She was going to be with her literally forever, she only interfered because she thought the incubators would control her eventually.
 
She was coming out of a grief spiral, had just had a misleading conversation with an amnesiac Madoka, and on top of all that needed to be the one to protect Madoka. My money's on all of those factors influencing her decision making just as much if not more than her making a calculated decision.
 
However, everything you said is definitely what Homura believes to be true...
Y'know, I'd change my pic from a gold soul sign to Homucifer, but then no-one in this thread would ever trust me again 'cause feathers. :p

A) True, the bait-and-switch worked perfectly this time- but a trick like that'd only work once. Next time the Incubators know what to look for. Trick them some other way and they'll be ready for that too next time. And so on and so forth. QB can play the long game too.

B) Homu's wish was to be the one protecting Madoka - you could argue that her wish didn't come true (until post-Rebellion) since Madoka keeps dying and then ceases to be 'Madoka' when she becomes a concept.
Madoka's qualifying line "with my own hands" may introduce the same problem Homu's wish had - that it depends upon the 'human element'. 'Madoka has a 100% success rate until she doesn't' kinda-thing.

C) I don't know what Hom's Labyrinth/invitation has to do with anything - the only important thing about the entire setup is the isolation field that needed to be removed for Madoka to take Hom away.
If Madoka could free someone from the isolation field from outside then Rebellion would've been 2 seconds worth of 'Madoka lolnopes the Incubator plan' followed by Homu actually going with Madoka to Valhalla.
Since that didn't happen, I think we can safely assume that the incubators (somehow) made it so that she needs to be inside the isolation field to break it (already defying the 'omnipotent' goddess by doing so).
Hence the point of using the isolation field on literally every other Meguca that exists:
- Madoka can't break it from outside or she would've done so, yet she is bound by her wish to save every Meguca, hence she needs to enter an isolation field every time she tries to do her job - hence giving QB infinity chances to dethrone the demonstrably-not-omnipotent concept.

D) if we're gonna get technical, Madoka is a concept - not a goddess. She's obviously not omnipotent because if she were Rebellion would've been over in 2 seconds flat (when she lolnopes the isolation field before things become a problem), and she ain't omniscient or infallible because she sure as hell didn't see Homucifer coming. Omnipresent, atemporal and transcendent of the universe, I'll concede.
The problem with this theory is that it's never brought up in the movie. If this was Homura's reason, then surely she would have brought it up when she and Sayaka were talking at the end.
@JarringToaster basically stole the words out of my mouth with the 'can only be omnipotent within the bounds of their wish' theory (that I also subscribe to) so I'll just address this point here.

My above reasoning is not Homu's reason for ascending. Homu has nothing to do with it.

The points I raised were my reasoning as to why I thought the Law of the Cycles was pretty much doomed in the long run due to the events of Rebellion (discounting Homucifer entirely) and hence why I think the Lotus Eater Machine wasn't the ansolute worst possible outcome (even if it does suck for everyone).

Regardless, that's all just my personal headcanon and is irrelevant to PMAS - thus, getting back on topic (you beat me by 30 seconds Mura, I swear), I'm gonna vote for
[x]Ugolino

And I also throw my support in with those that believe that the trip with Hom must not be canceled - rebuilding bridges with her is too important. If Mami is still distraught by then, we will have to work around it - go in timestop or bring Mami along or get Madoka/Sayaka/Nagisa to be with her while we're out, for example.
 
A) I'd trust a being with technically infinite time to come up with other tricks to pull over someone stuck to linear time progression at a fixed, unstoppable rate. Also, Madoka has access to the knowledge of everyone who's ever interacted with the Incubators in literally any capacity. She knows them better than themselves due to knowing them pre-retcon.

B) Homura's wish not coming true yet is precisely why she was able to become Homucifer, probably. I don't see how this is a rebuttal to anything regarding the threat of the Incubators. Also, Homura's wish was to protect Madoka, not to save her. Exact words are a bitch.

C) It's a very important point. Madoka (allegedly) could not enter the Isolation Field, unless Homura-The-Witch invited her in. No one could enter unless the Witch invited them, and so 'The Law of Cycles took the form of a victim [Homura] would invite', to quote Kyubey. It's relevant because it implies that if someone doesn't invite the Law of Cycles, the Isolation Field has no use to the Incubators. This might've been the only time it could have possibly worked.

As for Madoka not just cracking it immediately...well, they can bust it from the inside perfectly fucking fine. If that was all Team Madoka cared about, they could've thrown the hat in early, smashed everything apart, and picked up Homura before she knew anything was going on. But that wasn't the point. They invested a lot of time, energy, dialog, and planning into trying to convince Homura not to be alone, not to engage in self-destructive behavior, not to kill herself and curse herself and blame herself.

They took the time to enjoy the paradise she created, and attempted to give Homura love, support, and attempts at therapy before saving her from the Incubators and into the Law of Cycles. This implies they intended to do this REGARDLESS of their ability to crack the Isolation Field. They took the vacation time and wanted to help Homura in ways Madoka couldn't if she just uplifted her to Valhalla. There is technically no evidence to suggest the Isolation Field would stop Madokami and a lot of circumstantial evidence that she COULD.

D) Kyubey calls Madoka a god and he's pretty fucking literal. The series compares her to a god multiple times. Lots of real-life theologies and religions consider divinities to be anthropomorphic personifications of a concept, which is exactly what Madoka is. This semantics hairsplitting is irrelevant. Madokami's surprise doesn't necessarily apply to Madokami as she normally operates because in that moment she is physical, tangible, visible to everyone, and operating inside of linear time. It seems to be a Physical Goddess Madokami who hasn't finished ascending back to normal after being a witch-kissed victim mortal, probably insisting on, or forced to, picking up Homura before she could return to Concept-Land.
 
Oriko:"Sabrina, is there any particular reason you have a prehensile tail?"
Sabrina:"I think the better question is: why do you not have one? These things are awesome!"
We still don't have one :( though we did do that combat harness :)
The Incubators would need to be insane to be able FEEL happy about that
Went omake-diving, didn't find it though...Anyway, it is simpler to say "happy" than "what passes for contentment for incubators, anyway".
Y'know, I'd change my pic from a gold soul sign to Homucifer, but then no-one in this thread would ever trust me again 'cause feathers.
Wait, is this what I've been doing wrong :o ? Godwinson, come back! Please? I can chaaaange if I want to!
 
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I'm just going to copy over what I've recently said on this topic elsewhere.

The only way Rebellion makes sense given Madoka's canonical abilities is that Madoka is engaging in a Memory Gambit.



Madoka knows everything the Incubators plan to do before they do. What's more, she has the ability to erase their memories and their plans retroactively. She has omniversal omnipresence, meaning that not only can she not be blocked in any form whatsoever, not only does she exist everywhere simultaneously, on both sides of every barrier, but she is also in fictional universes and can alter fiction, dreams and imagination. Her strength and power is literally infinite, so she can lift, crush or break anything she wants and her speed is not only infinite, she can time travel as well. She is timeless, so even if you could harm or trap her in any way, which you can't as she's omnipresent and incorporeal, the fact that there was a time in the past where she was not harmed or trapped means that harming or trapping her fails to take effect. even if you were somehow able to freeze the entire omniverse simultaneously, her past self could hop over that instant, skipping it entirely, and continue with the future, rendering your efforts futile. She has the ability to erase witches even in fiction and minds, meaning that she can remove the knowledge of witches from the Incubators' brains whenever she wants or even before she decided to. She can change history so that Kyuubey didn't hear a word of his conversation with Homura or even remove Homura's ability to say "witches" or to even describe witches (or even erase Homura's memories) and again, she can do this retroactively. In Madoa's world, it's completely impossible to say, type or think the word "witch" or to describe or imagine them in any way without express permission from Madoka who knows every possible and impossible consequence of doing so. Madoka knows everything that will happen and even everything that is impossible to happen and can control all of it. Madoka is has access to everything she will ever know and will ever be able to do and has had full access to all of that since the beginning of time. She is perfectly capable of interacting with every version of herself from the past, present and future from the start of time until eternity beyond. She knew all the events of Rebellion and every possible and impossible variation of them and has known all of that since the dawn of time. Madoka knows every plan the Incubators will ever think of and every plan they won't think of and how successful they will be and can instantly change history so that they never made the plan in the first place. Madoka knows knows every thought that anyone will ever have and has dealt with everything that has ever been or ever will be imagined. She is completely impossible to out-think, surprise, evade, harm or capture in any way, whatsoever.


So, no. The Incubators' plans have always been and will always be impossible.

Read more: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=12943821940A52797100&page=2115#ixzz3cAx1roUu

Madoka was explicitly retgone as she needed to have always existed and you can't come into existence if you already exist. Madoka actively demonstrated Time Travel and infinite speed in order to collect every witch. She explicitly interacted with her future self where she killed and absorbed her future, witch!self. She explicitly tells Homura that she is everywhere, in every Universe and in "impossible Universes" (and therefore has the ability to operator in fiction and minds). the wording of her wish lets her erase "every witch" and if she exists in impossible Universes like people's imaginations, she would therefore be able to erase the witches in there too. Kyuubey explicitly says that Madoka is powerful enough to create and destroy Universes, before being corrected by Madoka herself that no, that's a vast underestimate of her powers. Madoka explicitly appears in multiple places simultaneously and claims to be "everywhere, with everyone". The paradox of destroying her future self and therefore becoming stronger than her future self an infinite number of times rendered her timeless and with infinite power. Kyuubey explicitly states that a magical girl's power is equal to the despair they are destined to feel and Madoka experienced an infinite amount of despair from witching out and absorbing the despair of herself an infinite number of times (never mind that of every magical girl that will ever and won't ever exist). He also says that it's determined by her influence and she's an omniversal concept, therefore, at maximum influence. She explicitly tells Sayaka that it was within her power to alter reality so that Sayaka never made her wish, but chose not to do so.



EDIT: Madoka was explicitly not trapped in Rebellion. She explicitly sent in a piece of herself while the rest continued her own thing. When the barrier fell down, anther piece went down and Homura only tore off that piece and nothing else, which was confirmed by Homura herself.

Read more: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=12943821940A52797100&page=2116#ixzz3cAxGh6HU

Madoka's wish allows her to retroactively erase every witch. She says that she exists in every Universe, in every possible Universe and even in impossible Universes, which indicates that she exists in imagined Universes and can therefore retroactively erase witches from people's imaginations.

Read more: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=12943821940A52797100&page=2116#ixzz3cAxSp2IJ

Everything I said she can do comes from that wish. Imagine a witch? That's a witch. She wished to erase all witches. Your imaginary witch is one of "all the witches" and she can erase it, because that is what she wished.

Read more: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=12943821940A52797100&page=2116#ixzz3cAxYKpNT

Madoka claims to be everywhere, with everyone, all the time. I believe her.She's hope, remember? As long as there's a place where there is enough hope for someone not to be a witch, she's there.

Read more: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=12943821940A52797100&page=2116#ixzz3cAxauCNv

Madoka normally can see her own future as she can see, fight, destroy and absorb her future self.



EDIT: Kyuubey even said to Madoka upon hearing the wish, "Do you truly wish to become God!?"


Madoka responded, "I don't care what I become" ie. "If that's what it takes"

Read more: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=12943821940A52797100&page=2116#ixzz3cAxdyqd2

She confirms that she exists both in Universes that may come into existence (and already exists there, before they come into existence, and exists there even if they don't come into existence) and Universes that are "impossible to come into existence". She lists them separately, so you cannot confuse the two and to confirm that she exists in all those variations.

Read more: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=12943821940A52797100&page=2116#ixzz3cAxklVG3
 
I swear to god if this argument leads up to "Homusifer did nothing wrong".....
well.. she certainly failed to do nothing/did the act of nothing incorrectly, so in one sense that line is right.

otherwise I'm going to stay outta this discussion, cause I've never seen Rebellion. PMMM was sad enough, I don't want to see the sequel that ruins the bittersweet ending of the first one. I just find that line funny whenever I hear it.
 
I'm going to stay outta this discussion, cause I've never seen Rebellion. PMMM was sad enough, I don't want to see the sequel that ruins the bittersweet ending of the first one.
I hear you. But there is one very good reason to watch it even if you don't like the premise/ending: Nagisa Momoe is awesome.

The Homucifer talk is getting a bit off topic. Keep it within the relevance of the quest would you guys?
We just saw a black feather, so the talk about Homucifer is understandable. However, much of the talk has been about Homucifer from Rebellion rather than about her (possible) presence in PMAS. Probably because we actually know what happened in Rebellion whereas we don't know what's going on here. Possibilities:
1. The Homura we know is actually Homucifer, and she's just pretending to be a normal magical girl. This seems unlikely since she hasn't displayed any behaviors or skills that would be out-of-place for Homura from PMMM and we've also seen her transformation and her soul gem and there's nothing unusual about them.
2. The Homura we know used to be Homucifer, but time travel reversed both the physical changes and her memories of what happened. This seems unlikely since we just found a physical feather, so Homucifer is physically present (assuming that the feather is hers).
3. There are two Homuras running around. The girl we know and the self proclaimed demon. This seems to be the most likely explanation, but I don't know how it would happen. Maybe Homucifer snuck in from a different universe?
4. The feather is a coincidence (from a crow or from a different threat entirely unrelated to Homucifer). This sort of coincidence happens all the time in real life, but it breaks narrative conventions, so I doubt that is what we have here.
5. Sabrina is an aspect of Homucifer and created the feather without realizing it. The fact that the feather does not feel witchy is moderate evidence against this.
6. Someone is playing at silly buggers and intentionally trying to mess with us. Oriko, possibly. But there's no reason (that we know of) for her or anyone else to do so, and how would they have known that feathers would be significant?
7. Time Travel! Due to events in the future, Homucifer will be created (probably by our actions) and has more control over her time travel and can do so without overwriting her past self. This explanation would be fun (but extremely confusing).

Edit: added 7

If Homucifer is here, what can we do?
1. Hope that she is benign. Hope that she shows up in Oriko's vision due to fighting the threat rather than because she is the threat. In the visions that Oriko averted, Madoka was often dead in the aftermath, which is moderate evidence that Homucifer is not the threat.
2. Diplomacy. I know that we're generally not very good at social stuff, but Homucifer's desires are probably pretty straightforward: she wants to keep Madoka safe and ordinary. Barring unforeseen circumstances (like Madoka's wish being required to save the world), we ought to be able to help with that.
3. Trickery. If we find out what Homucifer wants and it's something that we cannot countenance like "allow the world to be destroyed in order to keep Madoka safe" or "kill my alternate self and take her place", then we will have to oppose her, but direct confrontation is not advised. However, we might be able to trick her into defeating herself or entering a portal to a different dimension/time or something.
4. Direct Confrontation. A last resort. Sabrina is powerful, but nothing like powerful enough to take on a goddess, and there are no good ways to gain sufficient power. Madowish would be one. Witching out for Superpowers would be another. Paradox effects between the two versions of Homura could be another. An out-of-context solution like recreating the Darkhallow (from the Dresden Files) might even be possible. But if it comes down to direct confrontation, that probably means a Bad End.
 
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4. Direct Confrontation. A last resort. Sabrina is powerful, but nothing like powerful enough to take on a goddess, and there are no good ways to gain sufficient power. Madowish would be one. Witching out for Superpowers would be another. Paradox effects between the two versions of Homura could be another. An out-of-context solution like recreating the Darkhallow (from the Dresden Files) might even be possible. But if it comes down to direct confrontation, that probably means a Bad End.
If it comes down to it, we'd probably need to get her into our barrier - in there, Sabrina is closer to a goddess than anywhere.
 
Perhaps it would be possible to fight for a specific objective. But in terms of fighting to defeat our destroy this particular enemy? I don't think it should be considered even as a last resort. It's a guaranteed loss. If we take that option off the table completely, we'll put in a better effort at whatever else, as we won't have any choice.
 
Perhaps it would be possible to fight for a specific objective. But in terms of fighting to defeat our destroy this particular enemy? I don't think it should be considered even as a last resort. It's a guaranteed loss. If we take that option off the table completely, we'll put in a better effort at whatever else, as we won't have any choice.
Yup. Direct Confrontation=Bad End. If it does come down to that, then we might as well go out with a bang, but until then it should be off the table.
 
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Yeahhhh that's not a fight we win through direct confrontation. That's a fight we win through social or waking up Madokami. I also don't find needing to do so very likely, but that's how we'd have to do it if it turned out to be true.
 
Waking up Madokami should be easy.

Sabrina: "Hey Madoka, what do you want to be when you grow up?"
Madoka: "Well, they said I could be anything, so maybe I can become a goddess. Oh wait, I already am." *Madokami reawakens*

:V
 
planning for Feathers is gonna require more information in general. We are just going to have to deal with what we have on our plate now before we start planning for her, and just hope we stumble onto more clues.

On a more tangible future threat, Walmart Night is approaching. did we already make a battle plan for it or were we hoping to make it up as we go along? In the rare chance nobody came up with anything, I'mma gonna lay down a bare bones style plan for review.

Part 1: Orginization
1)cash in all our megurca contacts a week or so before the circus comes to town, Inform them that our local Pre-cog Magical Girl has seen that Walpurstnacht is arriving in Mitikahra in X days and will probably destroy the city (and the surrounding ones as well). Arrange a meeting for all willing to stay and fight in Warehouse-kun

2)At said meeting tell other MGs about whatever plan we settle on. Ask for feedback and about their abilities. edit plan according to new information.

3) Assemble girls into loose roles depending on their abilities, suggestions are Artillery, Melee, Support, and Ranged DPS. they can have multiple roles, but some are more important than others and take precedent.

4) Cake will be served, but only for those who participate.

5) when first meeting is over, make a second one a few days before Walpurstnacht to field any Fridge Plans the girls might have come up with while waiting. as well as assure any who still have the jitters.

Part 2: The Battle

1) Assemble any Artillery type MGs along with Sabrina on a roof with the best line of sight to where Wally will arrive. Ranged DPS stick with either Homura or a mid-ranged heavy hitter like that girl who controls terrain. Melee will cover Artillery group and focus Silhouette Girls. Support go where they feel they can help best.

2) Open with max power Artillery barrage, all the Trio Finalies, Cries of God, Limiti Esternis, at beyond maximum power. Sabrina keeps the group clean while they go beyond their limits. DPS Group and Homura holds fire for now, targeting familiars at will but being defensive.

3) depending on state of Wally's Shield, either keep firing and/or Sabrina breaks off to engage Wally. Sabrina will come at Wally from above and create Mecha Gurran Zilla Lagan to act as a Shield/pinning Wally down so Sabrina can drain Wally's Shield directly. DPS Group can engage on own judgement, Homura still Homus holds fire.

4) when Wally's defense breaks, THEN Homura Time Stops, grabs Sabrina if she can without pulling Wally, and lets loose with everything.

5) at this point everyone dogpiles Wally, Melee might still need to focus Familliars to keep Artillery safe. but mostly its going to be kicking a clown when she is down.

6) Repeat Step 2 if needed.

Part 3: The Aftermath

1) eat cake, have tea party.

2) repeat step 1 as necessary until Feathers joins.

3) offer final boss Microwaved Tea.
 
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