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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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justinkal said:
Where, other than Asunaro, do we expect to find soul gems that we won't feel bad about using as test subjects?
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Why in fucks name do we need to use 'test subjects'? We have Witches for that. We don't need to fuck with Asunaro, it's inhabitants, or the general vicinity. If the Soujo sisters show up here in PMAS, they *gasp* may not even be the same people they were in Kazumi Magica.

Because Firn is a better writer than that.

So no, lets not fuck with Asunaro, people's soul gems or anything of the sort. We don't need 'test subjects' like Sabrina is some sort of insane cackling mad scientist.
 
I only bring up the test subjects thing because it may be necessary to test the differences between how soul gems and grief seeds react to various stimuli.
 
It...really isn't, and even if it was, that really isn't the way to do it. It isn't something I could see ever happening as part of a sane vote. :confused:
 
Dirtnap said:
Why in fucks name do we need to use 'test subjects'? We have Witches for that. We don't need to fuck with Asunaro, it's inhabitants, or the general vicinity. If the Soujo sisters show up here in PMAS, they *gasp* may not even be the same people they were in Kazumi Magica.

Because Firn is a better writer than that.

So no, lets not fuck with Asunaro, people's soul gems or anything of the sort. We don't need 'test subjects' like Sabrina is some sort of insane cackling mad scientist.
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Shockingly, having unwitched Soul Gems for research would make this work a lot easier to do...and using yourself as a test subject is rarely a good idea.

Ugolino said:
Yes, but that's not the aspect of her character Sabrina likes. Or wants to encourage.
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...as a small aspect of Sabrina, I can happily say that I like having someone less "Stupid Good" on our side, for the day where our power isn't sufficient to make up for our idiotic, reckless behavior.
 
Eh. Sabrina isn't a killer. Not if she can help it. She would try to help as many people as possible. Even that girl with the mind control from SD? She'd help her, if she could, because that's who Sabrina is.

We are not rocking people to use as test subjects, for christ's sake.
 
What if it was to test creating replacement bodies for soul gems, so that we are prepared for when we figure out how to turn grief seeds back into soul gems?

Also, even Sabrina needs to have a small Id inside her mind. Nobody's entirely Superego.
 
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Higure said:
Shockingly, having unwitched Soul Gems for research would make this work a lot easier to do...and using yourself as a test subject is rarely a good idea.
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Shockingly, Sabrina isn't going to SCIENCE on people's souls. That's not how she's grown as a character. She's just as much her own character as she is the thread.
 
Personally, I'd like to have a more thorough Q&A session with Oriko under time stop or the interdiction field before even thinking about touching Asunaro; there's probably going to be differences, and large ones. Best to find out what they are before doing something potentially regrettable.
 
justinkal said:
I only bring up the test subjects thing because it may be necessary to test the differences between how soul gems and grief seeds react to various stimuli.
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Let me break this for you.

Soul Gems are people. Sabrina doesn't do that to people because is not ethical and goes against her principles of saving everyone and even more, her own characterization.

She's a person, not some mindless puppet controlled by a internets forum.
 
justinkal said:
What if it was to test creating replacement bodies for soul gems, so that we are prepared for when we figure out how to turn grief seeds back into soul gems?
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That's kind of getting ahead of ourselves, we'll probably find a few disembodied gems on the soujo's and even if we didn't, we still aren't going to rock people to use as test subjects. It's too unethical for Sabrina. The furthest I could see Sabrina going is to kill someone, and even then the person in question would need to be too dangerous to capture, and too dangerous to allow to run free. Capturing people's souls to experiment on them for our larger goals? That's unnecessary, unethical, and way OOC.
 
Yeah I get it, I was kinda running under the assumption that the general attitude of the thread so far will cause the top of Asunaro to be a Berserk Button for Sabrina when it becomes relevant.
 
Not really the case at all. We dislike the source material but Firn's a competent writer so that already just makes it mildly distasteful. At worst we just avoid it because it's a silly place.
 
Dirtnap said:
Shockingly, Sabrina isn't going to SCIENCE on people's souls. That's not how she's grown as a character. She's just as much her own character as she is the thread.
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She already has, you know? Witches are still human souls...so, yes, we've been doing SCIENCE on people's souls.

As for her limits as a character...the only time we've pushed them was that time we threatened to Witch Kirika. She did it anyway, because she had to stop Oriko, and doing something horrible was apparently worth it.

Sabrina doesn't do unpleasant things if she doesn't have to, but would she as a last resort? If the choice is between studying a Soul Gem, at some risk to the soul inside, or not saving the thousands of souls trapped in eternal torment...tell me, do you think she's Stupid Good enough to not do what must be done, if the situation arises? Stupid Good enough to choose clean hands over the souls of thousands, if not millions?

We're definitely "Good," but whether we're "do no wrong" Good or "do everything I can" Good is unclear at the moment.
 
Except that the situation isn't that kind of binary choice...and there's a difference between doing what we need to on Witches and experimenting on functional, normal souls that haven't already been damned.

And yes, we are. We are exactly that Stupid Good because we'll try and find a third option every time.
 
Higure said:
She already has, you know? Witches are still human souls...so, yes, we've been doing SCIENCE on people's souls.

As for her limits as a character...the only time we've pushed them was that time we threatened to Witch Kirika. She did it anyway, because she had to stop Oriko, and doing something horrible was apparently worth it.

Sabrina doesn't do unpleasant things if she doesn't have to, but would she as a last resort? If the choice is between studying a Soul Gem, at some risk to the soul inside, or not saving the thousands of souls trapped in eternal torment...tell me, do you think she's Stupid Good enough to not do what must be done, if the situation arises? Stupid Good enough to choose clean hands over the souls of thousands, if not millions?

We're definitely "Good," but whether we're "do no wrong" Good or "do everything I can" Good is unclear at the moment.
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"Take a third option" is kind of what Sabrina does though. Anyway, we don't have any particularly dangerous experiments that would also be useful to attempt on a soul gem. It would be pointless.

Sabrina has done some nasty stuff, but endangering human souls without a clear purpose in mind is far further than what she would normally do. And actually capturing someone for the express purpose of experimenting on their soul would be far, far, further than I hope she would ever go.

And yeah, false dichotomy like Ugo said.
 
Ugolino said:
Except that the situation isn't that kind of binary choice...and there's a difference between doing what we need to on Witches and experimenting on functional, normal souls that haven't already been damned.
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Then don't speak in absolutes, if you're only addressing this specific situation. Yes, she doesn't need to here...but that doesn't mean she won't if the situation changes.

As for the difference in experimenting...yes, there's a difference. Dirtnap did not acknowledge that difference, however. He made a blanket statement...I simply pointed out that said statement wasn't exactly accurate.

And yes, we are. We are exactly that Stupid Good because we'll try and find a third option every time.
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Yes, yes you are. You'd rather risk everything on a long shot than do something distasteful, and it will probably come back to bite you some day, unless Firn chooses to provide you a morally painless alternative every time.

I am not, and I'm sure I'm not the only part of Sabrina who cares more about fixing the issues at hand than walking away from this lily-white.

Again, though, I was responding to Dirtnap. He attempted to define Sabrina's character in a way that ignores past evidence (willingness to threaten Kirika) and unclear territory (situations where a third option is either unavailable or supremely foolish). I simply pointed out that we do not know what would happen. We do not know what Sabrina would do from an IC perspective. We don't even know what the thread would choose, if pressed into a situation where Stupid Good was far more Stupid than Good.
 
Higure said:
Then don't speak in absolutes, if you're only addressing this specific situation. Yes, she doesn't need to here...but that doesn't mean she won't if the situation changes.

As for the difference in experimenting...yes, there's a difference. Dirtnap did not acknowledge that difference, however. He made a blanket statement...I simply pointed out that said statement wasn't exactly accurate.


Yes, yes you are. You'd rather risk everything on a long shot than do something distasteful, and it will probably come back to bite you some day, unless Firn chooses to provide you a morally painless alternative every time.

I am not, and I'm sure I'm not the only part of Sabrina who cares more about fixing the issues at hand than walking away from this lily-white.

Again, though, I was responding to Dirtnap. He attempted to define Sabrina's character in a way that ignores past evidence (willingness to threaten Kirika) and unclear territory (situations where a third option is either unavailable or supremely foolish). I simply pointed out that we do not know what would happen. We do not know what Sabrina would do from an IC perspective. We don't even know what the thread would choose, if pressed into a situation where Stupid Good was far more Stupid than Good.
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But dirtnap was right. He said that SCIENCE (actually different from proper science) on the souls contained within soul gems in that context is not something that would be in Sabrina's character. He was talking about the current situation, even if you could read it as a blanket statement. Perhaps in the future Sabrina may perform some experiments upon soul gems, but it would need to be something unambiguously safe, and she would need to have a pressing reason to go through with any such experiments. As it is, we just don't have a good reason to do something that could go so horrifically wrong.

So far as capturing people and playing with their souls, though? No. No we won't be doing that and I'm fine with that being a blanket statement. If it's safe enough to perform at all, we can do it to our own gem.
 
Gadjo said:
But dirtnap was right. He said that SCIENCE (actually different from proper science) on the souls contained within soul gems in that context is not something that would be in Sabrina's character. He was talking about the current situation, even if you could read it as a blanket statement. Perhaps in the future Sabrina may perform some experiments upon soul gems, but it would need to be something unambiguously safe, and she would need to have a pressing reason to go through with any such experiments. As it is, we just don't have a good reason to do something that could go so horrifically wrong.
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Indeed...it reads a lot more like a blanket statement to me, but I don't disagree if you assume otherwise.

So far as capturing people and playing with their souls, though? No. No we won't be doing that and I'm fine with that being a blanket statement.
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...kidnapping for experimentation does seem like something Sabrina wouldn't resort to. She'd use her own Soul Gem first, probably, although some might not approve.

Using Soul Gems that have lost their bodies or some such, however, I can see her doing if the research involved, for example, body regeneration.
 
@Higure I'm not sure entirely that this is the hill you want to die on, playing (what I hope is) devil's advocate over Sabrina's hypothetical moral fiber when the topic in question is effectively murdering innocent girls we've no beef with for the sake of SCIENCE.

It's also not something I'm particularly wanting to engage with you in so much as frankly inform you that where you're going is rather pointless and asinine; it's also not in any way conducive to anything that has a snowball's chance in hell of getting off the ground as a vote, I can promise you now.
 
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