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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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In lieu of responding to every paragraph individually, I'm going to respond to some paragraphs individually and the rest with song lyrics:

Superman never made any money
For saving the world from Solomon Grundy

And Sabrina's closer to Supes than a working stiff.

boonerunner said:
I can definitely think of a few things that we could use money for:
1. A building for our experiments and measuring equipment (to verify that our grief equipment is accurate, if nothing else).
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Could be useful, but is hardly critical.
2. Raw materials. One of the upcoming experiments that I intend to try is to make a healing device which can use organic materials provided to it to heal a target. And then a body reconstructor based on the same principles. Both of these would require organic materials which are most easily purchased from the store. With money. Also, I'd like to see if we can reproduce Kyuubey's energy conversion tech to produce a grief->energy converter which can double as a grief cleanser. If such a device is possible, then might be able to mass produce it, but that would require raw materials (and probably a significant chunk of money). It would be nice to already have the money beforehand rather than have to concoct a scheme on the fly.
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I think we should establish whether your reconstructor plan is even feasible. And for a test run, all the organic material would need can be found uprooted at Oriko's house.
3. A Cleansing Empire. We want to distribute our cleansing products worldwide, whether that be in terms of clear seeds or something mechanical. And we want to turn Mitakihara into a Mecca for meguca so that they flock to our city for cleansing. And arrange for other centralized locations around the world to serve similar purposes. These plans will require a massive amount of money. Harnessing our healing abilities (writ large) could be one way to obtain this money.
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We may need money for that in the future. We do not need money for that right now or even very soon. Since you see no difference between charging money beforehand and being given money after the fact, you can just table the question of asking Kyousuke to help fund our Cleansing Empire until our Cleansing Empire needs funding.

The feeling may be different (depending on the person), but the moral obligation is the same: when a service is rendered, it creates a moral obligation for reciprocity. The reciprocity can be formally agreed to beforehand (a price) or simply implied afterwards (a donation). The time of reciprocity can be immediately after the service or delayed. The size of the reciprocity can vary depending on the recipient's means. Even the target of reciprocity can vary (e.g. students who learn something of value from a teacher have the obligation to pass that knowledge on to future students). But every service creates within it a moral obligation for some type of reciprocity. This is true even if the donor asks for nothing in return (generally this means that the obligation is to forward the benefit on to others rather than to the donor).
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Okay, then Kyousuke's repayment is to go enrich peoples' lives with his music. No money necessary.

If you ask a patient how much healing is worth, the mechanism is irrelevant, only the results matter.
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Not necessarily. Supply pays a role in price just as much as demand does, and if the mechanism involves harvesting the shells of a rare beetle found only on the shores of the Amazon, supply and thus price is going to be very different than if the mechanism is limited to concentrating real hard.

Or for a more realistic example, ebooks. Authors sell print novels, readers buy them, all is well in the world. Sometimes authors also make ebook versions of their novels freely available. (Example, Warbreaker by Brandon Sanderson.) Same book, different forms, different prices. The ebook version is free because it costs effectively nothing to let people download an ebook and the author has other ways to meet their financial needs. Magical healing costs us effectively nothing and we have other ways to meet our financial needs, so we have no need to charge for them.

Sabrina is not independently wealthy, Mami is. Sabrina is a freeloader (albeit a welcome one). I would consider it a great improvement if we were able to legitimately obtain enough money so that we can at least pay for our own expenses, if nothing else. Otherwise we are (effectively) charging Mami for cleansing and no one else.
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I'm willing to bet that Mami needs companionship from us more than we need room and board from her. So either she's running a debt to us and we should ask for more money than what goes to room and board, or we just don't frame our relationship in terms of equivalent exchange and go on our merry lives together.
 
rikalous said:
We may need money for that in the future. We do not need money for that right now or even very soon. Since you see no difference between charging money beforehand and being given money after the fact, you can just table the question of asking Kyousuke to help fund our Cleansing Empire until our Cleansing Empire needs funding.
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That is a valid point.

Okay, then Kyousuke's repayment is to go enrich peoples' lives with his music. No money necessary.
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That is also a valid point (but one which will not make him likely to ignore us as a potential love interest). Nevertheless, it's a point worth making and we should make some effort to explain this him (at least, if we do choose to inform him about his healing).

Not necessarily. Supply pays a role in price just as much as demand does, and if the mechanism involves harvesting the shells of a rare beetle found only on the shores of the Amazon, supply and thus price is going to be very different than if the mechanism is limited to concentrating real hard.
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I agree that supply is important, but in this case, the supply is not the effort required but rather the number of meguca willing to heal at hospitals. Which is currently zero. If we set a precedent for healing and a lot of meguca start doing it (this could be one of the keystones for supporting a cleansing empire, for instance), then the supply curve would change and the price would start dropping. But currently the options are us. Or no one.

I'm willing to bet that Mami needs companionship from us more than we need room and board from her. So either she's running a debt to us and we should ask for more money than what goes to room and board, or we just don't frame our relationship in terms of equivalent exchange and go on our merry lives together.
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The point is not what Mami owes us or what we owe her. The point is that I (at least, I can't speak for the other posters) prefer to pay for my own room and board wherever possible. In this case we have a marketable skill which can be marketed with minimal effort and much benefit, so I would rather do so rather than to remain a freeloader. It's not an important point, much less important than making sure that Mami gets the companionship she needs, for instance, but it was important enough for me to bring it up. If we vote to never to accept money for any reason as we have done in the past then, then doubtless we will continue to remain as penniless freeloaders for the rest of our existence. Many very influential people in the world have been penniless freeloaders after all (though few of them were as adamant about never accepting payment as we appear to be).
 
boonerunner said:
In the short term, the Yakuza would suffer. In the long term, they would increase their criminal efforts and take out that suffering on others. The increased crime rate would (indirectly) be our fault in this approach.
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No. The fact that the Yakuza would be financially crippled and therefore less effective would be our fault and I'd be happy about that.


I'm opposed to the lottery in real life on the general principle that it sells "hope" but doesn't actually pay off. And using precog to win counts (to me) as fraud. I don't know what the long term effects of this would be. But I can definitely say that this strategy wouldn't help anyone, whereas healing would.
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I get that. I also get that us continually winning the lottery won't make it last any longer than it would otherwise. Maybe if we're lucky, it'll even convince poor people that it's rigged and they should spend their money on better things.


I'm not going to charge for something that someone else desperately needs and costs us basically nothing. We have better options.
 
I'm voting against extortion no matter what, and I hope it doesn't happen. We don't really get anything that matters to us out of it and it really doesn't add to the quest or advance our goals. :(
 
Look, asking Kyousuke for money to heal him is fucked up because 1) We heal him beforehand and then slap a bill at him, which is literally extortion, 2) We offer the bill before the healing. He says no. We're fucked?????

Like oh my god healing his hand isn't a service we're doing for him, we're doing it for Sayaka. We're ultimately doing it for ourselves. Asking him for money is super fucked up and unethical because at best we're extorting a teenager and holding his parents emotionally hostage to go along with it, and at worst we have to decline healing him because he says no. Like, what the fuck. What the FUCK.

We've been doing shit for free this whole quest. It's part of Sabrina's character and it's part of what makes her charming and unique in this cast of characters, because Sabrina can be Super Heroic Exalted Good and be COMPLETELY VINDICATED for it in a way that negates any claims of naivete.

WE ARE LITERALLY A RECONSTRUCTED MAGICAL GIRL RUNNING AROUND IN THE DECONSTRUCTED MAGICAL GIRL SERIES. Fucking own that shit.
 
In the short term, the Yakuza would suffer. In the long term, they would increase their criminal efforts and take out that suffering on others. The increased crime rate would (indirectly) be our fault in this approach.
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Sereg said:
No. The fact that the Yakuza would be financially crippled and therefore less effective would be our fault and I'd be happy about that.
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I'm not convinced that things would be better for the victims if we took the Yak money. And if we took their money, there would be a certain obligation to try and return the money to their victims rather than trying to keep it ourselves, otherwise we would be no better than common thieves except in the choice of target. Honestly, I don't want to deal with their dirty money at all if I can help it. Any of the other options discussed so far (except for bank robbery) is less problematic than this one.

I'm not going to charge for something that someone else desperately needs and costs us basically nothing. We have better options.
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The cost that we paid for our magic was to have our soul pulled out of our bodies and to live a (probably short) life of danger with a real possibility of turning into a horrible abomination against nature. Compared to that cost, money is nothing. And the opportunity cost for rejecting payment (in the long term) is how that money could help us save more meguca from the fate of witching out.

But since I don't seem to be capable of convincing anyone of this (or no one is listening to my arguments), for now I'm modifying my vote to reflect that most voters don't want to consider charging Kyousuke.

[x] Ask Homura if we can join in on that.
[x] Tell Mami that you think you're starting to get the hang of roof hopping.
[x] Give Oriko a brief summary of the successful witch hunt and the ensuing conversation with Ono Megane (Kirika can fill her in on the details later).
[x] Say goodbye to Oriko and Kirika and head back to meet the others at the hospital.
[x] Telepathy Mami, Homura, Sayaka, and Madoka to have a discussion about healing Kyousuke.
-[x] Tell them that you want to try to heal Kyousuke today, with Mami and Homura's help. Make it clear that we value Sayaka's insights as a close friend of Kyousuke, but it is us and Mami and Homura that are making the actual decision.
-[x] Ask if they think we should let the following people know:
--[x] Kyousuke (we lean towards yes)
--[x] Kyousuke's parents (we lean towards yes, but that can be done later if they aren't present)
--[x] Hitomi (we lean towards yes)
--[x] The doctors (we lean towards no)
-[x] Mention the possibility of Kyousuke becoming emotionally attached to his healers, which is something we want to avoid. Possible ways to do this:
--[x] Three healers are better than one
--[x] Tell Kyousuke about the harsh realities of meguca life (i.e. fighting witches and the lichbomb) (we lean towards yes)
--[x] Make it clear that we're not interested. (we lean towards yes)
--[x] Be rude and scary. Call him violin-boy. (we lean towards no)
-[x] If we decide not to tell Kyousuke, we would need to heal him without anyone knowing.
--[x] timestop so that others don't notice.
--[x] while he is sleeping so that Kyousuke doesn't notice.
--[x] Use disguises to make ourselves unrecognizable (in case Kyousuke wakes up or if we don't use timestop).
 
boonerunner said:
I agree that supply is important, but in this case, the supply is not the effort required but rather the number of meguca willing to heal at hospitals. Which is currently zero. If we set a precedent for healing and a lot of meguca start doing it (this could be one of the keystones for supporting a cleansing empire, for instance), then the supply curve would change and the price would start dropping. But currently the options are us. Or no one.
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Sure, but the point I meant to make was just a counterexample against your contention that mechanism was irrelevant, because here are these ways that it can totally be relevant. I don't want to get involved in an economic debate; I took one class on it years ago and I don't think I'm qualified to keep talking if it goes on much further.

Also, this?
But currently the options are us. Or no one.
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This articulates a problem I have with the charging-money thing that I don't think I was even consciously aware of. We have Kyousuke by the short and curlies. Only meguca can fix his hand, and all the meguca in the area (and a couple potentials to boot) are our allies. We hold his dreams in the palm of our hand. The one that's not gripping the aforementioned short and curlies, I assume. If the deal falls through, he loses his hope of regaining the thing he most loves in the world. We lose a chance at some extra dosh. This is not an equitable arrangement. The reason people keep throwing the word "extortion" around is because that's what using severe power imbalances to make people give you money is generally called.

And it's not even all that economically defensible, because we've got an artificial monopoly. We're not even that good at healing, he just doesn't have access to Rin or Yuma or any meguca who isn't us-affiliated.

I'm pretty sure Kyousuke would promise us his soul and firstborn child if that's what we asked. Any attempt to negotiate a fair price with him is going to be tainted by that desperation.
Ugolino said:
So...we take up investigative journalism? :p
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Nah, we sell papers pictures of ourselves.
 
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For your convenience:
Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[X] Ask Homura if we can join in on that.
[X] Return to Madoka and Sayaka. Ask them if they or Mami have any ideas as to what we're doing with Nagisa.
[X] Return to Mami's apartment and start making preperations for Nagisa's arrival. Snacks, drinks, and whatnot.
No. of votes: 1
MissingJimbo

[x] Ask Homura if you could join her.
[x] Telepathy Mami: You think you're beginning to get it a little. (Roof hopping.)
-[x] Talk about enchantment magic. Even if you haven't made much progress with it, is there any limits to the kinds of enchantments you can make?
--[x] Being able to enchant your bag so the grief inside doesn't feel witchy would be nice.
--[x] Or say... maybe enchanting an object with the property of cleansing soul gems?
--[x] Keep talking theories on magic. How it works. Etc.
[x] Drop Kirika off. Telepathy Oriko. Thank her for the help.
[x] Assuming Mami's done everything she wants to do, return to Homura, Madoka and Sayaka.
No. of votes: 8
Muramasa, landcollector, Gadjo, Ugolino, noahgab1133, Sereg, Dirtnap, Guilop

[x] Ask Homura if we can join in on that.
[x] Tell Mami that you think you're starting to get the hang of roof hopping.
[x] Give Oriko a brief summary of the successful witch hunt and the ensuing conversation with Ono Megane (Kirika can fill her in on the details later).
[x] Say goodbye to Oriko and Kirika and head back to meet the others at the hospital.
[x] Telepathy Mami, Homura, Sayaka, and Madoka to have a discussion about healing Kyousuke.
-[x] Tell them that you want to try to heal Kyousuke today, with Mami and Homura's help. Make it clear that we value Sayaka's insights as a close friend of Kyousuke, but it is us and Mami and Homura that are making the actual decision.
-[x] Ask if they think we should let the following people know:
--[x] Kyousuke (we lean towards yes)
--[x] Kyousuke's parents (we lean towards yes, but that can be done later if they aren't present)
--[x] Hitomi (we lean towards yes)
--[x] The doctors (we lean towards no)
-[x] Mention the possibility of Kyousuke becoming emotionally attached to his healers, which is something we want to avoid. Possible ways to do this:
--[x] Three healers are better than one
--[x] Tell Kyousuke about the harsh realities of meguca life (i.e. fighting witches and the lichbomb) (we lean towards yes)
--[x] Charge Kyousuke for our services so that he doesn't feel indebted to us (we lean towards yes. Doctors charge for their services all the time and no one finds this odd. We would be providing a valuable service and the money could be useful, but we don't know how much would be appropriate. 4.2 Million Yen would be the average cost of a knee replacement surgery).
--[x] Be rude and scary. Call him violin-boy. (we lean towards no)
-[x] If we decide not to tell Kyousuke, we would need to heal him without anyone knowing.
--[x] timestop so that others don't notice.
--[x] while he is sleeping so that Kyousuke doesn't notice.
--[x] Use disguises to make ourselves unrecognizable (in case Kyousuke wakes up or if we don't use timestop).
No. of votes: 1
boonerunner
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[x] Muramasa
 
Wait a second. We can beat the Kyousuke crush by sweet-talking Kyouko into letting us have Yuma do the honors. He's not being written by CLAMP so he shouldn't start crushing on her and she'll get the healing done faster anyway.
 
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SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Setting the issue of healing aside,

I've given this a fair bit of reflection and I think the only real way to resolve things for Sayaka is to have a private conversation with Hitomi and just throw everything (within reason) on the table. She obviously is aware on some level of the indebtedness Sayaka feels, but I'm not sure she has the same awareness of it that, say, Madoka did. She is also canonically aware of Sayaka's crush on Kyouske, so I feel she needs someone to put one and one together for her and just tell her what would happen if she acted on her own crush as things are. Something like her canon ultimatum needs to be completely nipped in the bud.

I feel Hitomi is a reasonable person who cares about her friends feelings, and that we can reasonably put this on her without needing to worry about what she does with it. We also need to bring her into the loop about MGs and frankly, I think we should heal her too, given that the reason she's injured can be traced back to us, and given the "friend of our friend" logic we can't really justify not.

It should also be possible to consult Oriko about what she had planned for Hitomi and see if we can adapt it for our purposes, if it isn't heinous.


After that, then we're much better set up for a potential Hitomi-Sayaka conversation, if we feel it needs to happen. But we need to do this first.
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I suspect that Sayaka has pretty serious issues herself, under the surface. However, unlike with Mami, Sayaka is not nearly as self-aware of them.

She probably already had some self-worth issues before she ever met Mami and such. Being homeless, having her life saved by her friends (and then being taken in by her friends), and all the rest has definitely exacerbated them.

Helping Mami with her issues is both obviously needed and readily apparent. Helping Sayaka with her issues is also fairly important, but I think personal attention and sincere, overt gestures from the right people would actually have a large and immediate impact--in contrast to Mami's issues, which will definitely take quite some time to heal no matter what you try to do in the short term.

Thus, subtle, steady, and relatively passive methods over time are most effective for Mami, but Sayaka is probably best helped by the opposite approach: explicit reassurance, overt and direct gestures, and being insistent about our sincerity. ((The insistence part, in Mami's case, is merely of limited use; her issues by nature would require insistence of action rather than words, particularly over a long period of time.))
 
boonerunner said:
Can anyone who is opposed to accepting payment for healing explain what they think is different between what I'm proposing and what doctors do every day, because I really don't understand where all the hate is coming from?
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Jesus fuck, okay. Let me break it down for you:

1) Healing Kyousuke is not being done in a professional capacity. We are not a professional healer, and we do not go around offering our healing services to all potential customers.
2) It has all kinds of "offer you can't refuse" vibes. Too close to extortion for comfort (even if it isn't extortion at all, etc).
3) Would we do the same if Kyousuke had very little money to spare? No? Then double-standard. Sayaka might just mind.
4) We don't really need the money, and there are other ways to make money should we need it. 50K is a sizable chunk of money to move around, the kind of size that gets recorded and would look suspicious as hell on paper if anyone were to look.
5) Do you ask for a bunch of money every time you do a friend a favor? Especially when said favor is hardly any imposition for you by nature of assets/status/access/connections you already have by default?
6) We don't charge money to MG's for healing them, or cleansing them. Sabrina has very explicit, deeply-held convictions about this practice, and charging someone for healing a major injury that would be impossible to heal otherwise would be infringing upon those convictions.
7) The biggest reason we're doing this (and especially now) is because, if we don't, then the only other way to heal Kyousuke is by one of his close female friends contracting with Kyubey. We already know that one of them is at least seriously considering doing just that.
8) "Sayaka, you shouldn't become a magical girl. Pay no attention to the fact that I just healed an unhealable injury in a matter of hours and made 50,000 dollars in the process, easy. Like I said, being a magical girl is terrible. Now, I'm off to the bank to deposit the easiest 50K an unemployed teenager has ever legally made. Have fun at school!"
 
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Sayaka called herself a useless person and that it would have been better if she was the one with an injured hand than Kyousuke near the start of the show before contracting. She absolutely has self-esteem issues.
 
Again, we live with a rich heir and our mother is literally the perfect thief. Demanding payment for shit we were gonna do anyway just seems like buying ourselves trouble. If we ever need cash, we can literally just get Homura to stop time, go on a crime spree of our choice, and be a shitload of money richer for whatever we need to do within a few instants (outside of timestop).
 
rikalous said:
Wait a second. We can beat the Kyousuke crush by sweet-talking Kyouko into letting us have Yuma do the honors. He's not being written by CLAMP so he shouldn't start crushing on him and she'll get the healing done faster anyway.
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Wait you mean Yuma's life sucked so hard Kyubey made a gender exception...?

Sounds about right.
 
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