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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Kinematics said:
An enormous amount of energy is released when a soul gem turns into a grief seed. Given that the Incubators collect the grief seeds, I'm going to have to assume that they don't collect 'free' energy at the moment of the witchout, but rather that the energy from the witchout is stored in the grief seed. Thus they need to be hunted and collected first.
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This is contradicted by Kyuubey making Quota from Madoka witching out, without ever getting Gretchen's seed.
 
Aranfan said:
This is contradicted by Kyuubey making Quota from Madoka witching out, without ever getting Gretchen's seed.
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I'm thinking he probably gets most of the energy out of the witchout as well, but I think it's still a little ambiguous. We should come up with some questions to run by Kyubey (holding a grudge isn't in his nature; he'll answer us unless it was a violation of his code already). It won't be safe in any regard, but he's just too valuable a resource to completely ignore.
 
UberJJK said:
In fact Kyubey says:
Kyubey Episode 9 said:
When your souls burn out in the Soul Gems and turn into Grief Seeds, they emit immense amounts of energy. It is our, the Incubators' job to collect that energy.
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Which implies the Witchout itself release large amounts of energy which fits with the massive explosion that occurs when Sayaka turns into a Witch. In fact at the very end of Episode 8 from Kyubey's perspective we see massive rings of energy emanating from the train station.
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Yeah, I didn't rewatch 8, since I just wanted to analyze what Kyuubey was saying in 9. The energy explosion in 8 certainly supports that.
 
Gadjo said:
I'm thinking he probably gets most of the energy out of the witchout as well, but I think it's still a little ambiguous. We should come up with some questions to run by Kyubey (holding a grudge isn't in his nature; he'll answer us unless it was a violation of his code already). It won't be safe in any regard, but he's just too valuable a resource to completely ignore.
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Lets quiz Homura first. The chance that she knows such stuff in enough detail is low, but shes old, would have had many chances to talk with kyubey, and be the only one who could have talked to him without him knowing. Over X loops, she likely quizzed him on a lot of stuff.
It costs us nothing.
 
Cannongerbil said:
It goes a little something like this. If a girl witches out, they get some energy. If they harvest a grief seed, they get ALL the energy. If they die, they get no energy, and probably a reaming out from their boss over losing an investment.

In most cases, the majority of the energy they harvest comes from grief seeds, but if a meguca with enough potential witches out, like, say, Madoka with her literally of the charts potential, they can harvest enough energy to make up the difference.
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Xexilf said:
Lets quiz Homura first. The chance that she knows such stuff in enough detail is low, but shes old, would have had many chances to talk with kyubey, and be the only one who could have talked to him without him knowing. Over X loops, she likely quizzed him on a lot of stuff.
It costs us nothing.
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Hadn't considered that. Yeah, we should take the time to make Homura come and science with us and answer our questions. Still think we'll have to get some info from Kyubey at some point.
 
My headcanon on the Gretchen thing is that she keeps radiating energy like some sort of everlasting Black Magic star, and the Incubators can just collect that shit literally forever.

There's probably a To The Stars-esque fanfic in there somewhere, where the entire universe is dead except for a Dyson Sphere built around Kriemheld Gretchen, with Incubator technology being used to prevent her from noticing them.

And then she looks up...
 
UberJJK said:
Do remember that those OOC reasons apply equally to Sabrina. She is personally interested helping people and is running into the problem that she just doesn't have enough time in the day. There are so many immediate problems as well as the long term ones like coming up to a solution to the Witch System.

So even if she is interesting, which I figure she is as your not the only one curious about her origins, she just doesn't have the time to start work on what will almost certainly be yet another long and incredibly difficult problem. Especially since unlike her other ones she doesn't even have a good starting point.

Edit: Also there is a difference between been curious about your origins and having problems because you don't remember anything from your past.
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We're curious, yes, but trauma? The actions we can remember are causing a lot more of that, most notably holy shit Mami please get better.

Cannongerbil said:
Personally, the witchbomb's the dealbreaker. I'm totally fine with the lichbomb, and as stated before I have trouble understanding why anyone would be opposed to it. Even now I still don't fully understand why Sayaka reacts that badly to the lichbomb, only that she does. Of course, once you factor in the witchbomb, becoming a meguca is practically a prolonged death sentence, so, there's that.
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Very late comment here, but there's the fact your soul would be something you can hold onto, look at, and potentially lose. If nothing else, it's the equivalent of having your heart as a piece of gaudy jewelery- and being able to misplace it.

That in and of itself is pretty nasty, not to mention that your body now has all the value of a discarded tissue, which is an unpleasant revelation out of the blue under usually less than ideal circumstances. The Soul Gem thing isn't being presented to them as part of the deal, it's being dropped on them as something they had no say in and that's associated with horrifying events.
 
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AuraTwilight said:
My headcanon on the Gretchen thing is that she keeps radiating energy like some sort of everlasting Black Magic star, and the Incubators can just collect that shit literally forever.

There's probably a To The Stars-esque fanfic in there somewhere, where the entire universe is dead except for a Dyson Sphere built around Kriemheld Gretchen, with Incubator technology being used to prevent her from noticing them.

And then she looks up...
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Following that logic, we should get madoka to make a be a good witch wish, and wed solve everything forever.

Then we can ship her with homucifer^^
 
Cannongerbil said:
Personally, the witchbomb's the dealbreaker. I'm totally fine with the lichbomb, and as stated before I have trouble understanding why anyone would be opposed to it. Even now I still don't fully understand why Sayaka reacts that badly to the lichbomb, only that she does. Of course, once you factor in the witchbomb, becoming a meguca is practically a prolonged death sentence, so, there's that.
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Well, LIFE is a prolonged Death sentence, come to think of it. To me the true problem that you end it as a tormented , derranged but still somewhat self-aware Eldritch Abomination/ Boss Youma
 
UberJJK said:
We all know that the scientific term of 'entropy' doesn't really match Kyuubey's explanation.
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Any particular reason you say that?
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Just the general details of what he says. For example, "the total amount of energy in the universe is decreasing" isn't accurate, simply based on the first law of thermodynamics, and of course it doesn't make sense to define that nonexistent loss of energy as entropy. As you mention, "useful energy" makes it make more sense.
UberJJK said:
The purpose of the Incubators collecting grief energy is to extend the lifespan of the universe.

The energy released in burning a tree in a campfire is less than the energy it took to grow the tree.

The total energy in the universe is diminishing.
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I'm pretty sure that is just entropy. It might be because of poor translation or just Kyubey dumbing it down for a 12/13 year old but that is basically a description of how entropy works as long as you add the work "useful" to the beginning of every "energy".

After all the useful energy released by a burning tree is less then the energy it took to grow because some is lost to entropy. Although the statement by itself is technically also correct since the total energy stored in the wood is less then the total energy required to grow it as some was lost in the growing process.
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Kyuubey's statements aren't wrong, exactly, but they're not right, either. However, as you say, that could be from the perspective of dumbing down the example for a middle schooler.

A more precise description of entropy is that "the entropy of a physical system is the minimum number of bits you need to fully describe the detailed state of the system." Of course, it's a bit difficult to make that make sense to a non-physicist. (You can read this and this for a nice series of explanations of what entropy is and what it means.)

In general, adding an arbitrary quantity of energy to a system (such as collecting grief energy) cannot reduce entropy (the total number of bits required to describe the system... Edit: this assumes that the energy is part of the system itself; it applied from 'outside' the system, it can reduce entropy), although it can reduce average entropy (the number of bits out of the total bit count that are necessary to describe any one element of the system).
 
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So the Incubators are not saving the universe from Heath Death , they solve some sort of energy crisis amongst a Noosphere or oikumene and use bafflegab to talk around the fact that this at best will be a sort of far-future benefit to us if they do not decide to sacrifice us to the needs of the more advanced races. That is the new theory, yes ?
 
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Xexilf said:
Spawning Gretchen fulfills his quota, and he doesn't seem to care whether she's defeated.
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I call shenanigans. If we make a conservative estimate of 100,000 magical girls/witches on earth at any given time with an average lifespan of 1 year over a time period of 100 years, then Gretchen would need to produce more energy than 10,000,000 witches for this to be worthwhile. This is theoretically possible (if Homura's time travel adds to Madoka's potential multiplicatively rather than additively), but it's more likely that Gretchen merely produced enough energy to fill Kyuubey's quota, screwing over the incubators responsible for the other sectors of Earth in the process. Which would make this another instance of the Prisoners' Dilema. Perhaps we will need to make contact with incubators in other sectors to obtain a more balanced response.
 
boonerunner said:
I call shenanigans. If we make a conservative estimate of 100,000 magical girls/witches on earth at any given time with an average lifespan of 1 year over a time period of 100 years, then Gretchen would need to produce more energy than 10,000,000 witches for this to be worthwhile. This is theoretically possible (if Homura's time travel adds to Madoka's potential multiplicatively rather than additively), but it's more likely that Gretchen merely produced enough energy to fill Kyuubey's quota, screwing over the incubators responsible for the other sectors of Earth in the process. Which would make this another instance of the Prisoners' Dilema. Perhaps we will need to make contact with incubators in other sectors to obtain a more balanced response.
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This... is a possibility, IF there is actually some kind of rivalry amongst the Incubators...
 
boonerunner said:
I call shenanigans. If we make a conservative estimate of 100,000 magical girls/witches on earth at any given time with an average lifespan of 1 year over a time period of 100 years, then Gretchen would need to produce more energy than 10,000,000 witches for this to be worthwhile. This is theoretically possible (if Homura's time travel adds to Madoka's potential multiplicatively rather than additively), but it's more likely that Gretchen merely produced enough energy to fill Kyuubey's quota, screwing over the incubators responsible for the other sectors of Earth in the process. Which would make this another instance of the Prisoners' Dilema. Perhaps we will need to make contact with incubators in other sectors to obtain a more balanced response.
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Eh... Being a hivemind, I suspect the incubators would never work against one another.
 
'Lement said:
@boonerunner: Madoka has weight of universes, not Earths.

It doesn't have to be only about MGs on Earth.
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Kyubey saying she fulfills his quota in timeline...4(?). If four loops from homura already lift her onto All the Earth levels, were is she after hundred+?

Now if shes already universal after four....

Maybe we should just have her wish for omnipotence. That would solve stuff. And madoka is one of the few i might trust with that.
 
Xexilf said:
Kyubey saying she fulfills his quota in timeline...4(?). If four loops from homura already lift her onto All the Earth levels, were is she after hundred+?

Now if shes already universal after four....

Maybe we should just have her wish for omnipotence. That would solve stuff. And madoka is one of the few i might trust with that.
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She is universal since Homura erases universe every time she loops.

4. 4 Universes if she is additive.

That is so many Earths Avogadro number looks small.
 
SailorMidgard said:
I am starting to question all assumptions . Where is it written that Incubators comprise a hivemind , again ?
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I think it's kinda assumed that they're a hivemind. Probably because they're all after the same thing and don't deviate from their MO in achieving such. And don't show emotions, what with them considering emotions a 'mental disorder' and all.
 
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