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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Cannongerbil said:
The point still remains that If we want to break the system in a permanent way, we are going to have to convince the to willingly go along with it somehow, because we can't coerce to go along by force.

Even just sticking to what we know of them, we can't really threaten them or even significantly hinder their operations, and given the way they toy with memories we can't break the masquerade if they don't want it to be broken. Short of going full goddess, we just don't have the power to force them to do anything they don't want.
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You're claiming a dichotomy between cooperation and conflict, then claiming that all conflict is a dead loss from the outset and we've got no choice but to co-operate.
You also assume that we, and all of our future allies and creations, will always prove unable to either break the system independent of them or render them irrelevant.
Neither is remotely warranted.
 
FlatlineAskari said:
You're claiming a dichotomy between cooperation and conflict, then claiming that all conflict is a dead loss from the outset and we've got no choice but to co-operate.
You also assume that we, and all of our future allies and creations, will always prove unable to either break the system independent of them or render them irrelevant.
Neither is remotely warranted.
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Okay, explain exactly how do you plan to fight the incubators and forcibly kick them off the planet and/or devise a system that will render the incubators irrelevant that can withstand incubator interference without going full goddess?

For the purposes of this thought experiment, let's stick to the capabilities the incubators have demonstrated in canon and PMAS, which is to say, memory alteration and disposable drone bodies.
 
Cannongerbil said:
Okay, explain exactly how do you plan to fight the incubators and forcibly kick them off the planet and/or devise a system that will render the incubators irrelevant that can withstand incubator interference without going full goddess?

For the purposes of this thought experiment, let's stick to the capabilities the incubators have demonstrated in canon and PMAS, which is to say, memory alteration and disposable drone bodies.
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Honestly? As much as I hate to say it, Kazumi Magica's bullshit shows that's possible on a limited scale. THIS IS NOT ADVOCATING GOING TO ASUNARO especially since they'd never research it in the first place. Grief disposal is a long term problem but we can always fire it into the sun. :V

In the meantime, let's NOT try and make overtures to the completely emotionless, greedy collective that we have no bargaining chips with and everything to lose by 'negotiating' with. The whole point of the Incubators is that they are practically INCAPABLE of acting in good faith.
 
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Ugolino said:
In the meantime, let's NOT try and make overtures to the completely emotionless, greedy collective that we have no bargaining chips with and everything to lose by 'negotiating' with. The whole point of the Incubators is that they are practically INCAPABLE of acting in good faith.
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Well, yeah, I'm not saying we do it now. In order for a negotiation of this type to work both sides need to have something the other side wants, which we currently don't have. It's just that at this point I don't see any other viable option other than "become goddess" or "pragmatic cooperation" for breaking the system in a permanent way.

Well, I suppose there's a third option of "eternal war unending" but I don't think that fits anyone's idea of an ideal solution.
 
Cannongerbil said:
Okay, explain exactly how do you plan to fight the incubators and forcibly kick them off the planet and/or devise a system that will render the incubators irrelevant that can withstand incubator interference without going full goddess?

For the purposes of this thought experiment, let's stick to the capabilities the incubators have demonstrated in canon and PMAS, which is to say, memory alteration and disposable drone bodies.
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We have no idea what our capabilities are; we can't be expected to make a plan that'll work for centuries based on less than a week of experience. Ubiquitous self-replicating cleansing automata look like an excellent shot, though.
 
Cannongerbil said:
Well, yeah, I'm not saying we do it now. In order for a negotiation of this type to work both sides need to have something the other side wants, which we currently don't have. It's just that at this point I don't see any other viable option other than "become goddess" or "pragmatic cooperation" for breaking the system in a permanent way.

Well, I suppose there's a third option of "eternal war unending" but I don't think that fits anyone's idea of an ideal solution.
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Stalemate and pushing Kyubey to 'target practice and grief disposal' is perfectly viable. Anything that needs more trust in the bunnycat is an unwarranted and unwelcome gamble unless we have a lot more on our side than we currentlt do.

FlatlineAskari said:
We have no idea what our capabilities are; we can't be expected to make a plan that'll work for centuries based on less than a week of experience. Ubiquitous self-replicating cleansing automata look like an excellent shot, though.
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<Do you have any microwaved tea?>
<Tea?>
<Did someone say tea?>
<Tea? Where?>
 
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FlatlineAskari said:
We have no idea what our capabilities are; we can't be expected to make a plan that'll work for centuries based on less than a week of experience. Ubiquitous self-replicating cleansing automata look like an excellent shot, though.
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Assuming it works, and that's abit uncertain considering all our attempts at extending our range has failed, but assuming it works, the self cleansing automata still needs a way to get rid of grief, and the best way of doing so is, well, incubators. We could cut them out of the deal entirely by just throwing the excess grief into a volcano or something, but that'd just make them more inclined to work against us. We already have enough trouble with the Incubators as it is without deliberately courting some more.

Ugolino said:
Stalemate and pushing Kyubey to 'target practice and grief disposal' is perfectly viable. Anything that needs more trust in the bunnycat is an unwarranted and unwelcome gamble unless we have a lot more on our side than we currentlt do.
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The whole point of securing the incubators cooperation is because we don't trust them. We promise them access to consistent, preferably greater grief yields, and in exchange they don't fuck with the system. Think mutually beneficial business transaction, not jolly cooperation. It's not without it's risks, but it has a higher chance of succeeding than trying to cut them out entirely and/or forcibly kicking them off the planet.
 
Cannongerbil said:
Uh, no? A) they are not a hivemind, and B) they are pretty much the only thing staving off the heat death of the universe.

Seriously, there's already plenty of actual legitimate reasons to dislike the incubator, let's not go out of our way to make new ones out of thin air.

Well, yeah, the incubators are the kind of people that I would never choose to willingly work with if it wasn't necessary. The problem is, it is necessary, so we are going to Have to find a way to work with them somehow, risks and all.

If we try to forcibly kick them of the planet, we'll lose, and we'll lose so badly it isn't even funny. The incubator presence right now is basically the equivalent of a civilian enterprise, bound by their version of incubator laws and ethics. They could've very well kidnap promising contractees to an off world facility, forcibly contract them, forcibly witch them out, then nuke them and collect the grief seeds that way, and it would be much more efficient than any system where they have to convince the girls to make a contract, but they don't.

This is them operating with their gloves on. You do not want to see what happens when the gloves come off. So, yes, like it or not, we need to convince them to do whatever we want them to do willingly, and that means working with them.
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Canongerbil, do you know When the heat death of the Universe is supposed to happen? I assure you it is NOT around the corner. And the argument of the Incubators just doing their job at saving the universe and not needing to look at other, more productive or less destructive / hands-on strategies because "Oh my god, if anything goes wrong , its the end of the universe and besides, without them we would still be cave dwellers , so we sort of belong to them anyways" is so wrong on different levels,if only for being so incredibly short-sighted. I agree, this seems to be part of the Aesop in Urobutchi's mind, that we should not hate our alien tormentors because, in a way, they, not the foolish little girls they use, are the real heroes of the story, but to me that is surrendering to an viewpoint NIETZSCHE would have found abhorrent.
 
Of course, it's entirely possible that in the PMMM-verse, the Heat Death of the universe is much, much closer and held off only by the Puella Magi system.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Of course, it's entirely possible that in the PMMM-verse, the Heat Death of the universe is much, much closer and held off only by the Puella Magi system.
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Possible , but the Incubators do not say so - would they not use this to guilt trip those would- be heroines into making a wish "You not only get cookies , you not only will protect the innocent from harm, no ,you will also save the universe from imminent destruction" ?
 
Maybe you should stop making ginormously huge and baseless assumptions, as I've been seeing you doing?

The timeframe doesn't even matter, as the Incubators are clearly dealing at such a scale that single planets are disposable. They're also clearly immortal.
 
SailorMidgard said:
Canongerbil, do you know When the heat death of the Universe is supposed to happen? I assure you it is NOT around the corner. And the argument of the Incubators just doing their job at saving the universe and not needing to look at other, more productive or less destructive / hands-on strategies because "Oh my god, if anything goes wrong , its the end of the universe and besides, without them we would still be cave dwellers , so we sort of belong to them anyways" is so wrong on different levels,if only for being so incredibly short-sighted. I agree, this seems to be part of the Aesop in Urobutchi's mind, that we should not hate our alien tormentors because, in a way, they, not the foolish little girls they use, are the real heroes of the story, but to me that is surrendering to an viewpoint NIETZSCHE would have found abhorrent.
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Cannongerbil said:
Seriously, there's already plenty of actual legitimate reasons to dislike the incubators, let's not go out of our way to make new ones out of thin air.
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Cool your hateboner, dammit.
 
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AuraTwilight said:
Maybe you should stop making ginormously huge and baseless assumptions, as I've been seeing you doing?

The timeframe doesn't even matter, as the Incubators are clearly dealing at such a scale that single planets are disposable. They're also clearly immortal.
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Aura, that exactly IS my point. They do not act like immortals with an enormous , vast and multi-layered plan who have all the time and space at their leisure , they act short-sighted and desperate enough to destroy a planet even Kyuubey said to have been their best resource on the assumption of getting all in one fell swoop.
But I shut up now and restrain my self to microcosmic questions like "Will Sabrina invent Microwavable Tea" from now on...
 
SailorMidgard said:
Aura, that exactly IS my point. They do not act like immortals with an enormous , vast and multi-layered plan who have all the time and space at their leisure , they act short-sighted and desperate enough to destroy a planet even Kyuubey said to have been their best resource on the assumption of getting all in one fell swoop.
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Regardless of if heat death is scheduled for long after the fall of man or on the next Taco Tuesday, it remains a priority to the Incubators -- and that's the beauty of it, really.

An immortal race playing Xanatos Speed Chess with the world is something we don't have to deal with. We just have to deal with Incubators, who have a simple objective that's incredibly easy to understand, even if we can't quite grok how their system contributes to it other than 'grief goes in, heat death set back such-and-such amount'. As such, we know that any plan we want to pitch to the Incubators has to contribute to that somehow, in a better way than the current system (and by the same token, any plan we may have that will wreck that system, we know to keep under wraps). It's refreshingly simple, really, when you think of it like that. The only hitch is that their current means-to-postpone-the-end is abhorrent by our standards and our bargaining position is that of a dairy cow.

At the end of the day, there's no real reason to be thanking the Incubators, just thankful that they're them and not something more alien than they already are. Just my two cents on the matter, thought I'd put them out there.

On a more funny note . . .
"Will Sabrina invent Microwavable Tea"
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Why stop at microwavable tea? GRIEF TEA! The only tea in the world whose flavor is vastly improved by microwaving it! Choose from five magical blends -- Messianic Rose, Lovestruck Blueberry, Lemon Friendship, Apple Dream, and Timeless Grape -- and marvel as it goes from mediocre storebought average to fabulous high-class beverage in a full minute of microwave exposure!
Kyubucks Corp. is not responsible for any existential horror or unnatural mutations that may manifest as side-effects of prolonged consumption of Grief Tea. Do not drink Grief Tea if you are known to have adverse reactions to caffeine, listed fruit flavors, and/or boundless despair. For further questions or concerns, please contact your friendly neighborhood Incubator and refrain from defenestrating them before your inquiry has been handled.
 
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Krecart said:
Troll and RAEG Witches would be pretty hilarious. Could even have them as a double battle.
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A Witch whose nature is RAEG, whose familiars serve to goad and provoke it, then flee from its frenzied rampage?

The barrier would, naturally, be Greco-Roman ruins covered in witch runes, some of them green and prefaced with a '>'.
 
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Under the Radar pt. 15
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    • You take a deep, shuddering breath and blow it out in a hard exhale. You reach out to check the teapot - about what you'd expect. Barely lukewarm. You rise wearily, getting one hand onto your knee to push yourself up. Mami lets go of your hand as you rise with a little whimper, one that hurts to hear, and she stares up at you with an apprehensive, worried, look.

    You smile, and hold out a hand to her. She accepts it, and you pull her to her feet, smiling at her. "I'm just going to go make some fresh tea," you say, as much to Mami as everyone else. Madoka gives you a quick nod and a smile, still holding Homura's hand in hers, and Homura, for her part, seems to be fighting to control herself.

    A solemn tableau hued in the oranges of evening.

    You sigh again, picking up the teapot before heading to the kitchen with Mami following close behind you.

    You dump the tea down the drain, straining out the leaves to toss into the rubbish. A bit of clattering is Mami getting new tea leaves as you refill the kettle with water and set it to boil. Mami comes up behind you, touching you gently on the elbow, and you look at her to find a hopeful expression on her face, mixed with a trace of worry. Reading the unspoken request, you drape your arm around her, hugging her to you as you wait for the water to boil.

    Eventually, you have a fresh pot of tea steeping, and you carefully bring it out to the living room. You sit at the table, and Mami immediately slides into a seated position right beside you. You look down at her, receiving a smile in response, one faintly tinged with worry hidden in the lines around her eyes. You return the smile, holding her gaze for a few moments.

    You squeeze Mami lightly, and then reach for the teapot, pouring out fresh tea for everyone. Hardly anyone seems to notice, though, Sayaka barely deigning to give the cup you slide over to her a glance, and Madoka giving you a quick, grateful smile. Homura doesn't even seem to notice the gently steaming cup of tea at her elbow, opting instead to keep her gaze on Madoka, staring as if the pinkette might evaporate in a puff of smoke if she looked away.

    Mami simply opts to settle comfortably into your side, ignoring the tea.

    You sigh again, glancing at Sayaka, seemingly lost in her own world. "Sayaka?" you call softly.

    She looks up at you. "Hmm? Yeah?"

    "Do you want to talk about it?" you ask carefully.

    "N-no, it's nothing, really," Sayaka says, looking away again.

    "The hell it is," you say quietly. "You're upset, Sayaka."

    "A-ah!" Madoka shifts, half turning to face her friend. "S-Sayaka?"

    The bluenette sighs, looking at the pinkette. "I-" She doesn't get far before her lips seal together again. "I just..."

    She looks at you and Mami. "I... I owe Hitomi. I-" her hands twist at the hem of her brand new uniform shirt, "a-and I don't know how I can pay her back. I thought... maybe. Magic. I could become a magical girl, like Mami and you a-and even A-Akemi there. A hero of justice, and save people. Like you saved me and my parents. That would be great. And I could help Hitomi and K-Kyousuke and-"

    Sayaka breaks off, and looks away, her eyes shadowed in the scant evening light shining through the windows. "S-sorry. It's nothing."

    Madoka lunges for Sayaka, wrapping the girl in a hug. "I-it's not n-nothing, Sayaka. It's not."

    Sayaka swallows heavily. "It..." She gestures wordlessly to your Soul Gem, still sitting on the table. "I don't... I don't even compare. Y-your Souls are in rocks. Kyuubey..." There's a note of quiet horror to her voice.

    Mami sags at the reminder, her entire body slumping. She half turns against your side, trying to hide her face.

    You hug her close. It's the only thing you can think of, and you swallow the lump in your throat as you feel her shake in your arms.

    The motion catches Sayaka's eye, and she stiffens in Madoka's hug. "Oh, no. No, Mami, I didn't mean..." she says. She stands, and hurries over, but with Mami trying to burrow into your side, she has to settle for an awkward hug around the two of you.

    A moment later, you feel another pair of warm arms settle around you and Mami - Madoka.

    Homura shuffles over, awkwardly reaching out to pat Mami on the back - just once, and then she withdraws her hand, watching at Madoka with an expression of distant pain in her violet eyes.

    "M-Mami," Madoka whispers. "Y-you're my sempai. I-it doesn't matter where your s-soul is, you're still my friend." Lifting her head a fraction, she looks at you and Homura in turn, meeting you squarely in the eyes. "You too, Sabrina, Homura."

    "Mami, I didn't mean t-that," Sayaka whispers, her voice wretched and ashamed. "I- just... I'm, my worries are so small-"

    Madoka shifts, her arms wrapping as far around Sayaka as she can. "You too, Sayaka. P-please don't do this to yourself."

    "Yeah," Sayaka says. "Yeah, I shouldn't. I'm sorry." She falls silent, and Madoka gives her a look that says she's only letting it drop for now, the barest hint of a worried frown. The pinkette glances at you, the worry still evident in her eyes.

    The orange light of the evening is fading fast outside, shadows creeping into Mami's apartment. Silently, Homura rises to her feet, ghosting towards the light switch and flicking it on with a sharp snap.

    The light seems to startle Mami, and she jerks slightly, pulling back to look around with bleary, reddened eyes.

    "A-ah," she says. "I-I'm sorry, I should make dinner, it's late."

    [] Write-in

    =====​

    Man why is everyone so sad
     
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