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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Krecart said:
Ugh, I hate treating magic like some horrible burden, but our particularly bullshit powers are all that let's us fuck around willy-nilly with phasers and shit.
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That's still pretty meh on the grand scale though. It's not really even that magic's a burden, at least as intended in my vote. It's true that magic can do a lot of things. It can raise rebels to the places of kings, and shatter the very foundations of an empire. It can bring life to those who need it, and destroy those who don't deserve it.

It's still a tiny, tiny speck on the history of the world. Magic, at least not Sayaka's brand of magic, can't make changes of that sort of magnitude on the world stage. From an in character standpoint, I don't think what I've written is particularly wrong. If, as @Ugolino has noted, there is any hypocrisy, I can only say that this sort of method is itself fraught with potential for hypocrisy. However, by making a wish into a cost-benefit analysis, then you inevitably have to deal with this. Theoretically, a sufficiently powerful wish CAN do amazing things, and there's no denying it.
 
FlatlineAskari said:
Hm. Maybe it'd help to point out that we all made a contract in the face of certain death; that, unlike them, none of us had anything to lose by it?
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Not sure this is the time but...

Don't want to risk giving away Homu's secret without asking.

Maybe phrased like this? Still seems too encouraging of an emergency contract...

[]Hug Mami. Console Mami.
[]I'm sorry for not telling you sooner. And for making it look glamorous before.
[]Madoka, not contracting needlessly isn't cowardice, it's wisdom. You shouldn't contract if you have any other choice. There'll be other ways to help. You're braver than you give yourself credit for, Madoka, but you're also smarter than that. The cost's too great. Not just for you, but for everyone who cares about you.
[]Talk to Madoka and Sayaka.
 
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Technically speaking, in this world magic and/or the incubators are the only reason humanity isn't still living in caves.

/pedant
 
Krecart said:
Technically speaking, in this world magic and/or the incubators are the only reason humanity isn't still living in caves.

/pedant
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According to Kyubey, always a font of fair, balanced information.

Like Fox News for magical girls. :V

@Muramasa
Yeah, keeping it as is.

[]Hug Mami. Console Mami.
[]I'm sorry for not telling you sooner. And for making it look glamorous before.
[]Madoka, not contracting needlessly isn't cowardice, it's wisdom. There'll be other ways to help. You're braver than you give yourself credit for, Madoka, but you're also smarter than that. The cost's too great. Not just for you, but for everyone who cares about you.
[]Talk to Madoka and Sayaka.
 
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So I think we've congealed on two basic options then? The Kinematics/Cracubator Vote tries to discuss the problems directly and analyze the reasons why contracting is stupid. The Ugo Vote doesn't try as hard to analytically demonstrate that contracting is bad, and was the basis for the original argument.

I argue in favor of the Kinematics/Cracubator Vote, partially because I wrote it, but more because I think analytical arguments that are vaguely hypocritical but largely correct are better. I feel that the Ugo Vote, while saying the same basic argument, doesn't adequately account for all the possible scenarios. In the context, some overstatement of the cons of contracting is completely valid, and giving precise arguments makes it more difficult for Kyubey to #Words his way into making Sayaka or Madoka contract. A solid, logical basis (even if it's not 100% true) is better than a vaguer statement.

That being said, the vote's greatest strength is its greatest weakness, and it's easily, easily possible for the Kinematics/Cracubator Vote to backfire horribly in some fashion I haven't thought of yet. The Ugo Vote will definitely provide more operational flexibility and wiggle room for discussion, and does more positive reinforcement.

Incidentally, the Kinematics/Cracubator Vote:

[x] Hug the Mami. Console the Mami.
[x] You're wrong, Madoka. That's why I wanted to tell you and Sayaka. You don't think you're brave, but I believe that you'd drop everything to save me or Mami in a second. I believe that if we weren't here, to tell the two of you not to contract, that one day we'd meet a particularly powerful witch, and that we would see you appear to try and shoulder the burden and help us fight.
[x] It's not worth it. It's not worth it at all. Even if all the terrible things Kyubey does to us were somehow negligible, if somehow none of it mattered because it was just that important of a wish, it's not worth it. No wish is that important. It's because magic isn't that important.
[x] Magic is a pretty thing. It's like a diamond ring you see in the jewelry store. It sparkles this way and that way, and maybe it's so expensive and beautiful that you can use it to pull off some amazing bluffs. It makes you look pretty and rich and important, and you feel pretty and rich and important, but did you really change anything about yourself? You didn't. In fact you lost a lot just to get that ring, a lot that you can't get back.
[x] No, you see, magic is the easy way out that's not actually a way out. It's an exit sign that leads back into the fire. You think that once you have it you can do anything you ever wanted, but it's not true. It's not true at all.
[x] Defuse tension, obtain cake.
 
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Hmm...It still feels a bit too encouraging of the contract in the first bit...and the rest seems a bit inconsistent with "magical girls fight witches" and our own wish...not sure if that makes sense.

The speech is pretty eloquent, but I'm not sure it's what we want to say.
 
Crasian01 said:
I'm not sure how to make it more discouraging without straight up lying... <_<



...Sorry I'm not getting it. >_>
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I think it's the specific scenario there in the first point that's making me uneasy- it's implying a contract is okay under certain circumstances, if only as a theoretical. It's probably just shadowruns.

Hmmm. I think one thing that rubbed me the wrong way is that "to feel pretty and important" seems like a bit of a misreading of Madoka's motivations? I mean as a summary and a speech, it's great and some of those points seem pretty relevant for later in this conversation, but I don't think that should be our approach right now? Madoka isn't trying to improve her appearance or own nature so much as wanting to help, after all.
 
Ugolino said:
I think it's the specific scenario there in the first point that's making me uneasy- it's implying a contract is okay under certain circumstances, if only as a theoretical. It's probably just shadowruns.

Hmmm. I think one thing that rubbed me the wrong way is that "to feel pretty and important" seems like a bit of a misreading of Madoka's motivations? I mean as a summary and a speech, it's great and some of those points seem pretty relevant for later in this conversation, but I don't think that should be our approach right now? Madoka isn't trying to improve her appearance or own nature so much as wanting to help, after all.
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Well it's not meant to be taken literally. The Diamond Ring is symbolic, and the analogy is that the ring is equated to the wish. The "pretty and important" thing is allegorical to whatever effect you want the wish to have. Maybe the wish is supposed to heal someone's arm, or protect someone from harm, but all of that is nothing more than the perception of a change, rather than any actual change. It's essentially a lie of reality and a falsehood in the matrix of history. Such a falsehood cannot survive, and the forces of time will inevitably erase such a discontinuity.

That being said, you're not wrong. The exact approach is delicate, and Epic Speech Mode might not be best right now. That being said, I don't really think there's any other way to do it. Your vote is essentially Epic Speech Mode as well, just not written out as elaborately.

I think both votes make it plausible to argue that a wish is okay under the right circumstances. It's... an inevitable problem, I think.
 
Crasian01 said:
Maybe the wish is supposed to heal someone's arm, or protect someone from harm, but all of that is nothing more than the perception of a change, rather than any actual change. It's essentially a lie of reality and a falsehood in the matrix of history. Such a falsehood cannot survive, and the forces of time will inevitably erase such a discontinuity.
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Wha...? The arm actually gets healed. That's a change not just the perception of one. Magic is a thing that exists and causes actual effects. I don't understand what you're getting at here. Are you talking about the hope/despair balancing out to zero thing? I don't understand.
 
Guilop said:
Going by her reaction Sayaka shouldn't think of contracting anytime soon.
And she even apologized to Homura...although she still won't call her by her name.

Any ideas how we can let Sayaka and Madoka help us or at least make them feel like they are helping?

Should we bring up healing Kyouske's hand today once everyoe calmed down a bit or wait until Sayaka is in a better mod.
Offering to heal Kyouske while she does nothing might make her feel even more inadequate and reinforce the self-worth problems she has about her current living conditions.
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Make them stuff out of grief and let them use it?
 
We can make grief objects that can make magical effects occur. We just don't want the object to sustain the effect because remove the object, remove the effect. We probably can make magical objects that generate intentionally temporary effects. And thus, terrible idea time.

Do you think it would be possible to make Madoka and Sayaka a wand of fireball or a phaser each or something? Build in an incapability of harming anything but grief constructs (familiars and witches, not us), and have Homura keep a really close eye on them for the duration? Maybe give them armor or a bracelet that generates a shield if the wearer is attacked. I mean, it doesn't solve the main problem, but it would be a way of feeling useful for the moment.

Also, if the things work, we could get everyone in on a rousing game of fireball tag that ends with the participants only slightly toasty.
 
Give Sayaka the ability to set things on fire. Even theoretically only things that should be on fire.

THIS WILL END WELL. :p

Joking aside, they'd feel more dependent on us...or actively go hunting with grief constructs which is a whole new tier of aaaaaaaaaaaaa.
 
Krecart said:
Didn't @AuraTwilight say something about trying for a fire-wielding Sayaka this loop?
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I just said it'd be cool. I didn't say go for it.

Re:Madoka, can we maybe dump "Hey, like, don't fucking contract. Oh my god. But if you're going to insist on it can we atleast discuss what you'd wish for before you do it? No contracting without Sabrina/Homu/Mami approval."

Or even, "Madoka, I've seen instances of people wishing themselves into Godhood. They still lose horribly. It's a Monkey's Paw DON'T DO IT."

...Honestly I sort of want to get Madoka in Time Stop and tell her literally everything, including "You become Madokami and the entire universe is broken." Because of Homucifer but we don't say that part.
 
Vote tally:
##### 3.20
[X] Ugolino
No. of votes: 2
aeqnai, Muramasa

[x]Hug Mami. Console Mami.
[x]I'm sorry for not telling you sooner. And for making it look glamorous before.
[x]Madoka, not contracting needlessly isn't cowardice, it's wisdom. There'll be other ways to help. You're braver than you give yourself credit for, Madoka, but you're also smarter than that. The cost's too great. Not just for you, but for everyone who cares about you.
[x]Talk to Madoka and Sayaka.
No. of votes: 4
Ugolino, Gadjo, Guilop, TheSlayers

[x] So, yeah, it's not exactly a glamorous life, regardless of what it looks like we can do.
[x] You have to work hard to hold onto the truly important things in life, and if you're not aware of what you're losing, it may be gone before you realize it.
[x] It doesn't take a wish to make things better for the people around you. For the people that care for you, you simply being you means a lot more than you realize.
[x] It's too easy to get caught up in what you think other people want from you. Be confident in the person you are.
[x] Help get things settled down. Tea, cake, ice cream, whatever's available and appropriate.
No. of votes: 2
Kinematics, Aranfan

[x] Hug the Mami. Console the Mami.
[x] You're wrong, Madoka. That's why I wanted to tell you and Sayaka. You don't think you're brave, but I believe that you'd drop everything to save me or Mami in a second. I believe that if we weren't here, to tell the two of you not to contract, that one day we'd meet a particularly powerful witch, and that we would see you appear to try and shoulder the burden and help us fight.
[x] It's not worth it. It's not worth it at all. Even if all the terrible things Kyubey does to us were somehow negligible, if somehow none of it mattered because it was just that important of a wish, it's not worth it. No wish is that important. It's because magic isn't that important.
[x] Magic is a pretty thing. It's like a diamond ring you see in the jewelry store. It sparkles this way and that way, and maybe it's so expensive and beautiful that you can use it to pull off some amazing bluffs. It makes you look pretty and rich and important, and you feel pretty and rich and important, but did you really change anything about yourself? You didn't. In fact you lost a lot just to get that ring, a lot that you can't get back.
[x] No, you see, magic is the easy way out that's not actually a way out. It's an exit sign that leads back into the fire. You think that once you have it you can do anything you ever wanted, but it's not true. It's not true at all.
[x] Defuse tension, obtain cake.
No. of votes: 1
Crasian01
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AuraTwilight said:
Re:Madoka, can we maybe dump "Hey, like, don't fucking contract. Oh my god. But if you're going to insist on it can we atleast discuss what you'd wish for before you do it? No contracting without Sabrina/Homu/Mami approval."

Or even, "Madoka, I've seen instances of people wishing themselves into Godhood. They still lose horribly. It's a Monkey's Paw DON'T DO IT."

...Honestly I sort of want to get Madoka in Time Stop and tell her literally everything, including "You become Madokami and the entire universe is broken." Because of Homucifer but we don't say that part.
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I really like this approach, but won't the universe like implode or something if we say things directly and clearly without trying to obscure or obfuscate anything?
 
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AuraTwilight said:
I just said it'd be cool. I didn't say go for it.

Re:Madoka, can we maybe dump "Hey, like, don't fucking contract. Oh my god. But if you're going to insist on it can we atleast discuss what you'd wish for before you do it? No contracting without Sabrina/Homu/Mami approval."

Or even, "Madoka, I've seen instances of people wishing themselves into Godhood. They still lose horribly. It's a Monkey's Paw DON'T DO IT."

...Honestly I sort of want to get Madoka in Time Stop and tell her literally everything, including "You become Madokami and the entire universe is broken." Because of Homucifer but we don't say that part.
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To be fair Madoka's wish worked fairly well for her. It was mom that screwed everything up.
 
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